Riot, must offense outscale defense by SO DAMN MUCH?

darkdill·Feb 12, 2017·54 votes·5,020 views

Picture this: I'm Warwick with about 5k HP, 135 AR and MR, a Sterak's Gauge, and I properly time my E (55% damage reduction), but the enemy team of still drops me in 2 seconds in a 5v5 team fight. AND they didn't even need to 5v1 focus-fire me.

Please say tankiness isn't a trap...

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2423467661/197504?tab=overview

#EDIT Just to note, I did swap out Sterak's for Zz'Rot later on to get some resists, and it basically amounted to no change at all. I STILL died super-fast in 5v5's.

120 Comments

MaeDoSanFeb 12, 201717 votes

your ar and mr seem too low maybe u just stacked health

darkdillFeb 12, 201712 votes

Considering I'm using a Titanic Hydra, and the enemy is mostly assassins with a lot of anti-armor/anti-MR, health is the better choice.

MaeDoSanFeb 12, 201720 votes

Unfortunately you dont know how armour and magic resist work , look up wiki

darkdillFeb 12, 201710 votes

Unfortunately, I do, and if the enemy has a ton of anti-armor, it's worse getting armor than it is getting HP.

ßurstFeb 12, 20172 votes

So they had a lot of lethality is what youre saying?

darkdillFeb 12, 201712 votes

No, they had BC and Mortal Reminder and the like. They also had Duskblades, and anyone will tell you HP is better against a Duskblade than resists because they deal true damage.

5000000000000000Feb 12, 20176 votes

When assassins building both % armor pen and flat armor pen is meta :(

Pierce The VealFeb 13, 20173 votes

{quoted}

When assassins building both % armor pen and flat armor pen is meta :(

When Riot misunderstood the complaint about lack of ad caster itemization to mean they didn't deal enough true damage. D:

PB4UAMEMay 7, 20181 votes

Hey look! RIOT's doing it again!

Their solution these last few years literally just seems to be negate more defenses, add in more true damage.

I wonder when they will realize defense basically no longer exists.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20182 votes

The sad part is then they jump to the conclusion that burst is the issue. No, burst champions cannot kill tanks in a decent meta. What is an issue is when dps champs have as good, if not better, burst as an assassin, and can also melt tanks and bruisers like butter.

It should be tank beats burst beats dps. Not ADC is god and all else must kneel before their overlords.

When will riot understand that % hp damage, true damage, and % damage reduction are not fun mechanics?

And with the introduction of pyke, incoming 1000+ hp executes.

PB4UAMEMay 17, 20181 votes

It's getting really sad, honestly.

Remember back in Season 2, before BotRK (or when it was a fighter/bruiser item, and NOT FOR ADCS) or other % hp damage items, back when penetration went flat -> percentage, and back before there were any runes/masteries/items with true damage?

Remember when defense was an equal to offense and it was your play, strategic choices, and tactical decision making that won you a game?

I barely can. It's become league of twitch-reactions and long range CC into instant unavoidable 100-0 burst.

Might as well take Halo, and strip the energy shields out, and make every bodyshot a headshot, and lower the TTK to CoD levels, then wonder why the game has become less fun, and everyone's hiding around corners or camping in remote regions of the map. If people die instantly with nothing they can do if they take risks, they simply won't take any risks, period, and the range of options and strategies is smothered very quickly.

It's almost like those old design philosophies they entirely discarded might have been there for a reason. . .

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Pierce The VealMay 17, 20182 votes

Yeah I only faintly recall those times as it stands.

We have forcibly dumbed down strategy and made league a “skill game.”

Aka, whoever has a short reflex time, less ping, and more apm. And not who can outsmart the opponent.

As it stands we have oppressive amounts of damage and to counter that we have slightly weaker, but still very oppressive tanks that also deal tons of damage. And then when you play an old champion like Nocturne you’re left utterly screwed. You can’t outdamage mr ADC, can’t outburst him, and can’t 1v1 the tank. Wtf can you legitimately do?

It’s very frustrating playing the game nowadays because I find myself being forced to play certain champions in certain roles.

Riot no longer lets the game take its own course. They forcefully implement a flashy, viewer friendly game.

PB4UAMEMay 17, 20181 votes

Yup, I especially agree with the second line, and your closing points. Hell, I basically just play ARAMs nowadays rather than solo queue.

Pierce The VealMay 17, 20181 votes

Pretty much. I play some league every few weeks in the background while talking with some friends.

NichtHurzFeb 13, 20176 votes

Okay, you had like 220 armor and 4600 health when you were full build. But you've also taken tons of damage compared to other players in this game. Could it be that they focussed you really hard? No tank should be tanky enough to survive more than 2 secs against a team with lots of mixed damage and pen if he's hard focussed. With your team and build this just shouldn't happen. Sorry, but there had to be misplays if you play against a team with almost no mpen or arpen. Akali had Void Staff, Corki only duskblade (for whatever reason) and sorc's, Shaco duskblade only, Annie none, Talon was the only one with reasonable pen...

I have to admit, looking at your team's stats...there's no miracle behind you and your team dying. A tank needs a team that knows where to be and when to follow, but this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm not gonna start talking about the horrendous builds in this game...

SpoofghoulFeb 13, 20178 votes

I think his point still stands

let's not forget about a lot of carry players crying about tanks dealing damage not sure what they are expecting when tanks die in 2 seconds

i agree with op that offense outscales defense too much .

it turns fights into twitch fests about who can pull the trigger faster rather then applying game knowledge, actual skill, positioning, strategy and outplaying your opponents to win.

these days its just hurr durr flash dash boom oneshot all within 1 second

woodvsmurphMay 7, 20182 votes

And then you will just be taking true damage from them because all your resistances are negated. Which leaves your hp feeling meaningless especially if they have %hp damage on their team. You will literally just melt.

LordGeovanniFeb 13, 20174 votes

that SUPPOSED to be standard armor and mr for people who are classified FIGHTERS and not TANKS.

MaeDoSanFeb 13, 20171 votes

he made no armour or mr so he was taking tru or bonus dmg mostly is what my point is

LordGeovanniFeb 14, 20173 votes

he obviously bought at least one of each defensive orientated item which is what FIGHTERS are SUPPOSED to do. im not saying it would works because it wont because armor magic resist and health all got nerfed in season 4 and 5 and none of the champions that used them got compensation buffs to normalise the amount of damage they were taking so melee fighters had to adapt and sacrifice damage more and more for defense just to survive long enough to reach the enemy. no matter what he built 55% his bonus armor at least was being ignored that isn't accounting for the one lethality item that they had with true damage on it.. his enemies are champions with absolutely no defense being built but they complain about how fast they die this guy is at least building armor and mr but also stacking health which is also a defensive stat to help you to stay alive.

Big LincolnFeb 12, 20177 votes

i wish it didn't

playing juggernauts is frustrating af late game when you aren't mobile enough to burst and you can't build full tank without losing all your damage, just get kited unless you can flash and delete someone out of place

changing that would make the class very prominent and in a good spot to actually be melee carries

LooknookFeb 12, 20175 votes

Warwick isn't an actual tank; he is a fighter much like Shyvana. That being said, only a couple of the hyper tanks or a really fed tanky carry can survive much longer than that in the middle of an enemy team. It's just too much damage coming from too many people.

LordGeovanniFeb 13, 20178 votes

that makes it a damage problem if 2 entire classes of champions cant do their job because they cant survive long enough. when it happened to adcs balance team jumped right on that in a month its been happening to tanks and fighters for little more than 3 years now.

KoggyStyleFeb 13, 20171 votes

by your reasoning swain isent a tank either?

VeltoxFeb 13, 20174 votes

Nope. The only thing making him tanky is dumped by a 800 gold item.

EndlessSorcererFeb 20, 20172 votes

Swain is a mage.

His ultimate provides durability, but he is by no measure of the word a tank.

TotalJerkFeb 13, 20173 votes

Yes. Because Defense is actually cheaper. A full offensive build costs MUCH more than a full defensive build.

MelledoneusFeb 13, 20172 votes

And offensive builds help you farm and get kills. Which gives gold. For more items. For more farm and kills.

Defensive means you don't die as fast and perhaps you may get aome assists or miraculously a kill.

Sire HippingtonFeb 13, 20172 votes

And that is one o the big issues ever since the end of S2. Back then, you could opt for more expensive but therefor well scaleing tank items to have a good late at the cost of the early-mid. But since then, tank item has become more and more focused on midgame only, beeing gold efficient but not slot efficient compared to off gear. I really hope that they finally ad back scaleing lategame options for tank items once they work on defensive itemisation.

EedatFeb 12, 20172 votes

item 3748 item 3053 item 1401 item 3065 item 3742 with Fervor isnt a tank wtf

darkdillFeb 12, 201712 votes

Did I say I was specifically building tank? No, I was building diver, which involves being TANKY, not pure tank. But still, I was amazed that 5k HP was so easy for a team of assassins to shred through so quickly. You'd think sheer bulk would counter Lethality and Duskblade.

EedatFeb 12, 20176 votes

Well you are mistaken to think that someone who is tanky can tank 5 full build damage dealers on the enemy team.

You have a hybrid build. You are sturdy, not invincible.

darkdillFeb 12, 20173 votes

Umm, you do realize that even a full tank can't endure a 5-man dogpile; no one can because if you could you'd break the game. And I don't have an issue with them being able to kill me; it's just that they killed me TOO FAST.

EedatFeb 12, 20177 votes

champs like Maokai Nautilus are indeed capable of surviving a dogpile for quite awhile. Hybrid offensive WW is not

LordGeovanniFeb 13, 20171 votes

Maokai maybe because of damage reduction but not Nautilus with a 10+ second cooldown shield

EedatFeb 13, 20171 votes

considering he's building full tank and the fact that he gets a 42% Max HP shield between his W and CotC, he does

LordGeovanniFeb 13, 20172 votes

you have to have at least 3 champions actively trying to avoid hitting him for that to happen. ps full tank builds do not exist in the current state of the game as if that ever comes up you walk around that champion and do what you need to do to other champions and dont ever count item 2045 in a full tank build

HigeFeb 12, 20171 votes

I understand that you build spirit visage to increase your healing, but buddy, you're building MR against a bunch of physical damage and a tiny bit of armor against lethality which ignores all the armor you build (only 40 from deadman's plate) and the one you gain as you level up... admitedly you did have quite a bit of HP but swap that spirit visage for a item 3083 and proceed to tank it all

darkdillFeb 12, 20176 votes

There was Akali and Corki. Both of them are pretty magic-heavy.

HigeFeb 12, 20171 votes

yeah that sounds like an issue but considering that HP is a neutral defensive stat, when faced against hybrid the answer isn't magic resist but HP, when faced against heavy lethality, the answer is also HP.

Though Corki isn't particularly hybrid anymore but you need to understand that you can't tank 5 guys at the same time, playing as warwick requires you to pick and hunt one target, after that you need to either retreat or wait for your team

darkdillFeb 12, 20173 votes

So I'm not supposed to even be in 5v5 team fights?

DunkinNoobsFeb 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So I'm not supposed to even be in 5v5 team fights?

You're not supposed to initiate them, which I guarantee is what you were doing. You took 120k damage that game, more than anyone else in the game by a mile. Asking for more isn't reasonable.

LordGeovanniFeb 13, 20172 votes

well some one who's kit works by them healing damage they took and being below half hp to get any use out of their kit is gonna take more damage than anyone else in the game. when everyone else is a squishy or on occation a tank with no way to get their health back so they will have to either recall and be out of the action or die and be out of the action.

EedatFeb 13, 20179 votes

Then why are you complaining that you dont live long when you only build half defensively and take Fervor? In what world would it make sense for half a tank to face tank 5 full-build enemy carries?

Sire HippingtonFeb 13, 20174 votes

Qnly half defensifly??? the only item that isn't full tankiness in that built is titanic, and even that gives solid 400 hp. And more importantly: Divers and Juggernauts are supposed to be just as tanky if not more than tanks, they need to go deep and stay there to do something, tanks can just dump their rotation and walk of till their cds are up. And WW has some of the strongest defense in his kit, 55% damage reduction on E, thats like a short Alistar ult, and quite high selfheal from Q+passive+R.

RalanrFeb 13, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uM9t1TEy,comment-id=0008000000020000,timestamp=2017-02-13T15:14:25.556+0000)

Qnly half defensifly??? the only item that isn't full tankiness in that built is titanic, and even that gives solid 400 hp. And more importantly: Divers and Juggernauts are supposed to be just as tanky if not more than tanks, they need to go deep and stay there to do something, tanks can just dump their rotation and walk of till their cds are up. And WW has some of the strongest defense in his kit, 55% damage reduction on E, thats like a short Alistar ult, and quite high selfheal from Q+passive+R.

That shouldn't be true at all. Nothing should be more tanky than tanks. That's what Riot is hopefully going to fix in the vanguard update.

macromiteFeb 13, 20172 votes

And more importantly: Divers and Juggernauts are supposed to be just as tanky if not more than tanks

No. they should not be as tanky, but close certainly.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 13, 20173 votes

"Why must offense outscale defense by so damn much" "I wasn't building tank" [slayer-jinx-unamused]

King of DemonsFeb 13, 20171 votes

How can anybody upvote this..?

Lethality gets countered by armor. As the game goes on you will need increasingly high amounts of it. One defensive item isn't enough to counter the scaling of it. You'll need 2 or 3 items. And against that team.. you have 4 people who deal a lot of magic damage and Talon. You buy a GA, Deadman's and a Randuins considering 3 of them also crit and suddenly you survive a lot better.

Effective HP is HP after resistances. 2k HP with 100 armor are effectively 3k HP against physical damage, thanks to a 50% damage reduction but it stays as 2k HP against magic damage. You definitely had to buy MR in this game and then get some armor along with it to deal with the DPS. Especially later on, resistances become important. "They had penetration it wouldn't have made a difference" is the worst thing to say. ESPECIALLY because they have penetration you need resists to counter it. It is better to have 50 armor than to have 0 armor, because that means you'll take 100% of the damage they deal (obviously) and that will just shit on you. Corki is ridiculous as is already. He will crit you for 1600 damage and you had 0 resistances to stop him. One attack dealt like 1k damage to you and that was just from him.

INoble KnightIFeb 13, 20174 votes

except pure tanks are still being shredded by lethality builds. I've been full tank and Jayce, ADC's, and any assassin just delete me even when full build. It's stupid how powerful lethality is atm. Hell ADCs are building pure lethality builds and deleting people.