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[FEEDBACK] Experimental "Bruiser" Keystone: Conqueror

Lil Homie busta··40 votes·47,557 views

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9NOy2nXlTH4/Wo397QZDk0I/AAAAAAAA5ks/i0eMDNtfQpIWY111YOrmIkn8M5rgzzUzgCLcBGAs/s1600/conqueror.jpg

edited 27/02 Hi!

As some already know, a new keystone is currently being experimented on the PBE - and will probably come back in the next PBE cycle (8.6) for a final test before being shipped to the live servers. This keystone, if i'm not wrong, was created to fresh out the rune system by giving an additional and unique option to the precision tree that would fulfill the gap left by Fevor of Battle to some Fighters/Bruisers and step up as an "anti-tank" keystone option. Is important to note that despite being created to give fighters/bruisers a proper keystone, it was not aimed only to them, as no keystone should be class specific.

With that in mind, i would like to talk about this keystone. I've tested it in the PBE a couple of times, and i think i have some solid points to discuss about this keystone (which probably will not involve number issues or points, just mechanics stuff); so let's start by the positive ones:

  • Positive aspects of Conqueror (so far):
  • ------ Managed to fulfill very well the lack of a proper keystone that fighters/bruisers had been suffering since the preseason start WITHOUT being exclusive for them. It's definitively sub-par or secondary-optimal on other classes like assassins, tanks or marksman(ADC), but still can be useful and a viable option on those depending on both team comps.
  • ------ The "true damage conversion" part of the keystone made it very unique, as it's the only one to have this anti-armor/mr mechanic from all others keystones. I believe that the most important aspect of a keystone should be it's uniqueness, and Conqueror nails it pretty well, with just some minor issues that i will bring back later in this thread.
  • ------ True damage conversion works as a natural counterbalance for the AD granted by the keystone, in the sense that avoids abuse through life steal by using the bonus AD, which makes it not super good on crit and life steal champs.
  • ------ Has a clear disadvantage & advantage: Slow but stronger.

Now, some humble criticism:

  • Negative aspects of Conqueror (so far):
  • ------ It's activation mechanic similar to Lethal Tempo and identically to Grasp of The Undying, which hurts it's uniqueness quite a lot.
  • ------ Conqueror current "[X]s in combat" activation mechanic is inconsistent for it's current effect and will dictate playstyle due to how strong the buff is. The keystone is easily proc'able in lane -- since it's proc mechanic comes from a very good laning keystone -- but said mechanic is very bad at teamfights or situations where you have no option but to fight without preparation. This creates a inconsistency where it's hard to balance for lane and fights; not only that, the effect of Conqueror is not a laning-phase-oriented effect, but a power up effect that is useful in extended fights. It simply doesn't work very well and will bring a lot of headache for both players and the live gameplay team.
  • ------ "Idle Time". Four seconds without not benefits is a great downside of this keystone, even greater than it's benefits. Then again, Lethal Tempo it's somewhat impractical with 1.5 s delay, which is acceptable (kinda). But 4 seconds without keystone is something wrong. Even if you can activate it by attacking minions or monsters, it still not only inconsistent in some emergency situations, but it also unnecessary frustrating in said situations. We live in a context where champions like Garen or Renekton can die very fast in a fair amount of situations, and 4 seconds is a huge barrier for those players who are aware of said context.
  • ------ not gonna lie, the name and icon are actually funny instead of interesting xD This probably will be fixed by the art team before going live.

What could help/solve some of those issues pointed above:

  • Exchange the "Grasp" mechanic for a timed-ramp mechanic: Every 1 second in combat, you gain 25% of the total bonus AD provided by the keystone (that depends on your level), stacking up to 3 times. After 4 seconds, striking a enemy champion with one of your abilities or basic attacks will grant the rest of the bonus AD (25%) and the 20% true damage conversion. This would help making this keystone more unique and solve the "Idle Time" issue, since you at least would have something in between those 4 seconds.

  • Make it only active while fighting champions; change from "combat" to "combat with enemy champions". This would sinergize with the suggestion above, since you would be able to partially use the keystone even on emergency fights, which would cover additional "idle time" situations caused by removing the "hit a minion" strategy (generally while laning), as well make the activation requirement more consistent.

  • Some ideas for the keystone's name: Peak of Performace, Edge of Perfection, Rampage, Soaring Focus, Sharp Mind.

edited for clarity. Resumed suggestion ([ x - y ] is the level scaling, x being value at level 1 and y at level 18) :

"Every second in combat with enemy champions grants grants you [ 2 - 15 ] AD for 2 seconds up to 3 times for a total of [ 6 - 45 ] AD. When stacking 3 times, the buff's duration is increased to 4 seconds. Hitting an enemy with an ability or basic attack while having 3 stacks enhances the buff, granting you additional AD totaling in [ 8 - 60 ] AD and converting 20% of your damage to champions to true damage."

Melee only: Damaging enemy champions refreshes the duration of this buff.

Edit1: Yeah, talking a little about numbers, the AD from levels 1~5 is currently too high in the PBE, probably will be nerfed. Also, maybe the true damage% needs to be tuned down a little bit or scale with level too, i dunno. It definitively looks scary when you fall against a trynda with conqueror.

So, what do you think about this?

94 Comments

RiotSparkle30 votes

This is very reasonable and well written feedback! Thanks for taking the time to write this up, it's really very helpful. :) PS - Yes, the icon is temporary.

Lil Homie busta4 votes

Well, thanks! It took a little of time to write and organize it all, but it was definitively worth it. I think discussions about things like keystones and major game changes are very important, mainly for promoting player understanding about the game. Just for having someone posting and talking about those topics already makes satisfied, even more with a rioter's response!

Yeah, i was pretty sure about the temporary icon, just wanted to mess around a little. This icon does reminds me of Galio, i dunno why.

RiotSparkle11 votes

The icon is one of Galio's ability icons! :3

We often use stand in icons like this for testing, before we've finished "theming" a rune.

Wolfeur3 votes

About the name, I like the theme, since Conqueror gives this idea of big and strong force advancing relentlessly, but the name itself is too…simple. A compound name, like Conqueror's Might, would suit better a keystone name. (That's actually what Electrocute misses the most, to be honest)

RiotSparkle3 votes

This has been an interesting split I've seen among players - some players have said they like the new simpler naming scheme, while others miss the grandiose language of something like the previous keystone masteries. We've ended up doing a bit of a mix with the simpler names (Electrocute), some of the old, more grandiose names (Grasp of the Undying) and even some sillier names (Ultimate Hat).

Would love more thoughts on favorite and least favorite rune names and why. :D

EDIT: Thank you to all the folks posting rune name opinions, really helpful!

Skyroar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHXiioEA,comment-id=000400020000,timestamp=2018-02-28T20:03:29.644+0000)

This has been an interesting split I've seen among players - some players have said they like the new simpler naming scheme, while others miss the grandiose language of something like the previous keystone masteries. We've ended up doing a bit of a mix with the simpler names (Electrocute), some of the old, more grandiose names (Grasp of the Undying) and even some sillier names (Ultimate Hat).

Would love more thoughts on favorite and least favorite rune names and why. :D

I prefer simpler names, they are more practical and (most of the time) catchy. Thus why no one calls or types "Grasp of the undying", just "grasp". (BTW, a rune solely named "(the) undying" would be pretty cool).

Wolfeur2 votes

I think Electrocute has this problem that not only it is too simple, but it also lacks the thematic force that Predator and Dark Harvest have. When I think "electrocute", I think of an ongoing effect, a stun, something that electricity usually does in games. Thunderlord's decree was nicer in the sense that you could understand the "smite" effect of the keystone. Electrocute doesn't have that, and is not helped by the fact that it ends with "cute".

I like the Hunter and Legend slots for using the same names to denote an identical mechanic.

I think Guardian is too simple, but I couldn't say what to add to it.

Although I don't mind the name Demolish, I was surprised that it wasn't called Ohmwrecker, with the item being deleted.

Besides those, I don't have much feedback to give. I think most names and good and appropriate.

RiotSparkle3 votes

We wanna be pretty careful with re-using names from past items (as opposed to like, past masteries) for runes.

As we saw with Twin Shadows recently, there's always a chance we may want to rework an old item or return it to the game in some form. Naming a rune after something like "Ohmwrecker" would actually make it a lot harder to do any of that if we wanted to necro Ohmwrecker the item in the future for some reason (would we change the rune name or the item name? either one would probably feel bad for someone).

Ashen Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHXiioEA,comment-id=000400020000,timestamp=2018-02-28T20:03:29.644+0000)

This has been an interesting split I've seen among players - some players have said they like the new simpler naming scheme, while others miss the grandiose language of something like the previous keystone masteries. We've ended up doing a bit of a mix with the simpler names (Electrocute), some of the old, more grandiose names (Grasp of the Undying) and even some sillier names (Ultimate Hat).

Would love more thoughts on favorite and least favorite rune names and why. :D

My favorite rune names are Celerity and most of the runes in Inspiration, particularly Perfect Timing. Celerity because I think it sounds neat, and the Inspiration ones cause they're usually pretty witty or funny.

ModThe Djinn5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHXiioEA,comment-id=000400020000,timestamp=2018-02-28T20:03:29.644+0000)Would love more thoughts on favorite and least favorite rune names and why. :D

Favorite keystone names are actually the ones that sort of define a role: Predator and Guardian. They help hit home on the fantasy that a keystone is supposed to help define your playstyle that game in a way that the others don't. That's what I expect out of a keystone, and I feel Summon Aery, Grasp of the Undying, Unsealed Spellbook, and so forth don't capture that quite as well.

For lesser runes I like the more creative titles. Favorites there include the following:

  • Cheap Shot
  • Sudden Impact
  • The Ultimate Hat
  • Manaflow Band
  • Nullifying Orb
  • Demolish
  • Scorch
  • Magical Footwear
  • Hextech Flashtraption
  • Perfect Timing
  • Biscuit Delivery

I love these because they're flavorful (in most cases) and I can IMMEDIATELY remember which is which from the name alone. Most of them are using decidedly ungeneric names, and you'll also notice that most of these to NOT have similar effects to anything else.

My least favorite are those that don't give a strong indication of what they do -- coincidentally there are usually the ones where I find the graphics insufficient to let me differentiate the effects at a glance as well. In general these are the ones that, while I may use, I tend to only remember when looking at the row.

These include:

  • Presence of Mind
  • Legend: Bloodline
  • Last Stand / Cut Down
  • Taste of Blood
  • Ingenious Hunter / Ravenous Hunter / Relentless Hunter
  • Font of Life
  • Overgrowth
  • Revitalize
  • Unflinching

Note that many of these are more generic names OR have a lot of similar thematics. I can tell how Scorch is different from Manaflow Band almost by name along -- what's the difference between Overgrowth, Revitalize, Font of Life, and Second Wind?

Digging deeper into some potential issues with some quick, off-the-cuff thoughts.

Coup de Grace | Cut Down | Last Stand

  • I feel Coup de Grace is good, as that means "Finishing Blow."
  • I'd consider switching Cut Down to "Giant Killer", which syncs up with Lord Dominik's "Giant Slayer" and helps cement it's roll in the game.
  • Last Stand could work in that case, but I'd consider something like "Do-or-Die," as Last Stand seems more defensive than offensive to me.

Font of Life | Second Wind | Overgrowth | Revitalize

  • Font of Life becomes "Invigorating Command," to emphasize that it doesn't help you.
  • Second Wind changes to "Rapid Recovery," to help show that it lets you heal quickly after injury every time.
  • Overgrowth becomes "Battle Scars" to show that you grow more durable from battle.
  • Revitalize becomes "Font of Life" (yes, I think it's more appropriate here) to drive home that all survival effects are magnified on you and from you, since you're such a source of healing energy.
RiotSparkle2 votes

Thanks for writing all of this up! :D

ModThe Djinn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHXiioEA,comment-id=00040002000000030000,timestamp=2018-03-01T19:15:12.628+0000)

Thanks for writing all of this up! :D

Any time! I'd be happy to do a full breakdown of everywhere I feel this issue occurs if you'd find it useful. Just wasn't sure how much you wanted to read. :P

MalrothDragonia2 votes

I didn't know how to say how I felt about the keystone names until you said that. Also in general I like those keystones more than others in how they help define your style for that game. I'd say Unsealed Spellbook kind of does that, but I can see where you'd say it doesn't.

Myozthirirn1 votes

Ultimore >>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate hat. You guys dropped the ball on that one

Critmaster Garen9 votes
  • Some ideas for the keystone's name: Phreak of Performace, ...

joke aside,

generally speaking as a laning rune it felt at no point any better than grasp. because even most lane trades are just too short to make it past the ramp up timer and then still make use of the proc. im not even talking about skirmishes and teamfights, where it felt almost impossible to pull off.

i always hated grasps condition to auto attack minions to stay in combat to get the proc on the next trade aswell. it makes the rune feel unreliable and incredibly frustrating to use. conqueror takes the same shitty mechanic and amplifies the problem by not giving you the full effect after the 4 seconds, like grasp does.

basically what needs to happen is exactly what you described. have the ad ramp up over the first couple of seconds, and then unlock the damage conversion. having the trigger condition of the rune tied to being in combat with enemy champions sounds like a very good compromise.

this game is also missing a keystone rune for sustained spell damage pattersn, and the fact that everyone with spell dps has to rely on summon aery is actually kindof ridculous. but thats another problem entirely.

LyingOnLine5 votes

May as well just call it Puns of Damage.

Hibeki3 votes

I think thats the problem. You aren't playing it like a bruiser would.

Bruisers usually make or break, their trades wouldn't proc the keystones at all. They go for super extended trades or 100-0.

If youre playing, say, irelia, you proc it on minions, jump straight to the guy and stab the fuck out of them. In which case this keystone would be absolutely amazing.

Bruisers dont want quick trades. They want extended trades and all out fights, which is why you arent seeing as much of it, youre treating it like grasp.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

I think thats the problem. You aren't playing it like a bruiser would.

Bruisers usually make or break, their trades wouldn't proc the keystones at all. They go for super extended trades or 100-0.

If youre playing, say, irelia, you proc it on minions, jump straight to the guy and stab the fuck out of them. In which case this keystone would be absolutely amazing.

Bruisers dont want quick trades. They want extended trades and all out fights, which is why you arent seeing as much of it, youre treating it like grasp.

pretty sure a lot of fighters problem with the keystone is, that they want to trade for a couple of seconds until their abilities are on cooldown, then they want to break off from the fight and reengage when their abilities are up again.

this includes champions like Renekton Garen Riven and even Irelia who wants to fight while her w is available

like not every fighter is aatrox and wants to take extended fights. what now, those champions just dont get a good keystone?

like renektons strongest keystone right now is aftershock, because it makes it impossible to fight back against him during his short trades. there is no way in hell this keystone is better or equally good as aftershock on him, nor would it help his opponent to bypass part of the renektons resistances before he pulls back out of the fight. it wouldnt be useful for their him or his opponents in this case.

even grasp is kindof garbage on these champions, because it takes noticably longer to ramp up than their whole ability rotation takes. the new keystone would be even worse, since it would basically give them damage amplification AFTER they already traded with their opponent. grasp at least gives an immediate proc.

Hibeki1 votes

Illaoi Aatrox Fiora Camille Kayle Olaf Shen Urgot Volibear Jax etc are all fine with extended trades because you will get absolutely merc'd if you continue fighting them

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Illaoi Aatrox Fiora Camille Kayle Olaf Shen Urgot Volibear Jax etc are all fine with extended trades because you will get absolutely merc'd if you continue fighting them

kayle isnt a fighter, urgot cant make use of it (he counts as ranged), illaoi relies a lot on frontloaded burst, camille doesnt really take extended trades, shen isnt a fighter either.

that doesnt leave a lot of them. overall its like this keystone is going to be okish on half the fighter pool and the other half still doesnt have a keystone, as grasp has similar issues as conqueror.

i dont think thats acceptable.

Hibeki2 votes

This is just a small list of eople who like extended trades, regardless of whether they use the keystone or not.

Almost all the top laners right now are perfectly fine with taking extended trades because of their kits.

DeathBurst2 votes

No they aren't. Most top laners are perfectly fine with taking 2-5 seconds trades. Maybe that's what you call "extended", but still, that makes this Keystone useless for at least half the length of the trade.

RiotZenonTheStoic4 votes

Hi! Thanks for this post, this is very well thought out and argued! You have very good design instincts, but we have one unfair advantage over you: we've actually been able to test out some of the things you suggest ;)

So your suggested activation paradigm where the keystone gradually ramps up in combat was the very first iteration of this rune that Stashu tried out. The problem with it was that it felt too inevitable; it didn't meet our standards for minimum gameplay as and against for a keystone. It was very much like Fervor of Battle in that way: essentially it's just a bunch of stats with no real way for the enemy to do anything about it.

My next iteration was having the keystone ramp up gradually while you were near an enemy champion. This had a couple of cool implications, such as allowing some ranged champions to opt in without making it broken OP for ADCs. Urgot was foremost on my mind here. He has a very bruiser-esque combat pattern and would really have loved this keystone, I think. At the time, the output was still adaptive (we default to adaptive when there isn't a good reason to make it either AD or AP only), so I had some hope for Ryze and Cassio as well.

Sidebar: why are we even making this thing? It's not like bruisers have no keystones. Most of them have a keystone that they post very good win rates with, and that players pick in large numbers. The problem is those keystones achieve these winrates by shoring up weaknesses in a champion's kit, rather than doubling down on a champion's strength. If Fiora runs Kleptomancy or Open Spellbook in lane, she does this to sustain herself through the lane and make sure she's not pushed out of CSing and put behind. This is functional and powerful, but I strongly suspect it's not what Fiora players want (and I'm almost certain Phase Rush isn't what Darius players want, and Kleptomancy isn't what Illaoi players want). It's good to have the option to shore up weaknesses to a degree, but it shouldn't be your strongest option, and it surely shouldn't be your only option. Weaknesses on a kit exist for a reason: they tell a story for the enemy team about how to handle this character. If you take that away, you make the game less interesting for either side. I suspect that DPS mages like Ryze and Cassio suffer from a similar rune shortage. They run Open Spellbook to survive the lane (Ryze) or Phase Rush to hunt down squishies in 1v1s/skirmishes or to dodge incoming damage in a teamfight (Cassio), but they don't have a good option if they just want to double down on their damage. This rune could have been an option. We have something else in flight that might do it for them.

(end of sidebar)

The problem with the range-based version was that it was very visually noisy (lots of circles) and very kit-bound (you either have or don't have the tools to stick on someone). Also the mindshare was just a little too high for a keystone. It did give the enemy something to do (i.e. wait until the full effect turns on, then create distance until it falls off), but it forced the enemy to play around the keystone more than around the champion.

We settled on the Grasp paradigm as something that has proven gameplay, and we think there's a pattern here that deserves abstraction into more effects; just like Phase Rush and Electrocute are both "land 3 hits to get X", I think it's very useful for the system to have two effects that say "stay in combat for 4s and attack an enemy champion for X". Uniqueness is not an absolute value. Sometimes being similar to another element of the system makes the decision space for the entire system richer.

You're also absolutely right in your assessment that this rune is going to be trivial to activate in lane, especially when you're ahead and when you can just afford to stand in the minion wave and always have it primed, and that it's much, much harder to make good use of it in a teamfight, where it's unlikely that you can actively prime it before the fact and where most of the important stuff usually happens in the first 2-3 seconds--either you or the enemy is likely to be dead or otherwise out of the fight.

However, we've decided that this is a good thing. We want to embrace this. Runes generally should exhibit most of their strength in the early game and then fade into the background later (some exceptions--like Dark Harvest--notwithstanding). It's also a pretty snowbally rune, which again, we like. This is meant to be a rune that doubles down on the strengths of bruisers without shoring up any of their weaknesses. Winning more when ahead is a very bruisery output, being better at split-pushing than at teamfighting is as well. There is a cost: you're constantly pushing if you're always in the minion wave, attacking to keep your Conqueror primed.

Finally, as one release valve output we've also decided that the first damage that puts you in combat puts you in combat for 4 seconds, so your fallback is when you're being poked you can decide to jump in 4s later with Conqueror fully primed. We're testing making this change for grasp as well.

I hope that all makes sense! Hit me up with any other questions you might have.

ZaneShadow2 votes

{quoted}

Finally, as one release valve output we've also decided that the first damage that puts you in combat puts you in combat for 4 seconds, so your fallback is when you're being poked you can decide to jump in 4s later with Conqueror fully primed. We're testing making this change for grasp as well.

I play a lot of Grasp-Yorick, and that would be so nice! I'm pretty low rank so I'm still working at noticing things like this, but if I ever pushed a champion and got beat on the entire way there (potentially through PtA), and got that little 2% max health back, it'd be so nice. It'd be even better because the only time it's likely to make a noticeable difference (at least in my head) is when a melee pushes a ranged, since their the only ones not actually hitting anything during those 4 seconds of wind-up.

DeathBurst2 votes

I think it's very useful for the system to have two effects that say "stay in combat for 4s and attack an enemy champion for X".

The problem here is that you can just proc Grasp and get out. Whereas when you proc Conqueror it's only the beginning, you need to stay in the fight for even longer to actually benefit from it. So even if the activation paradigm is the same, the effects are too different for the parallel to hold well.

Finally, as one release valve output we've also decided that the first damage that puts you in combat puts you in combat for 4 seconds, so your fallback is when you're being poked you can decide to jump in 4s later with Conqueror fully primed. We're testing making this change for grasp as well.

I don't know about Conqueror, but this sounds like a giant buff to Grasp. Can the Keystone afford such a power up without risking a compensatory nerf pretty soon?

RiotZenonTheStoic4 votes

The problem here is that you can just proc Grasp and get out. Whereas when you proc Conqueror it's only the beginning, you need to stay in the fight for even longer to actually benefit from it. So even if the activation paradigm is the same, the effects are too different for the parallel to hold well.

Why do you think that's a problem? Again, I think that's a great thing: same input, different output. It makes the story of "how does a Grasp user fight a Conqueror user" way clearer and more interesting: the Grasp user wants to proc Grasp and DISENGAGE, the Conqueror user wants to proc Conqueror and STICK. Clear success criteria, different optimal cases mean that these two runes will be able to coexist without one pushing the other out.

I don't know about Conqueror, but this sounds like a giant buff to Grasp. Can the Keystone afford such a power up without risking a compensatory nerf pretty soon?

That's a good question! I've had some conversations around this and we currently feel that yes it can. It buffs almost only the behind case. If you're ahead and you can afford to stand in the minion wave and have the effect primed at all times, nothing changes for you. If you're too far behind to approach the enemy in the wave, you now have the option to use incoming poke as an opportunity to turn things around. I think that's a healthy buff.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think that's a problem? Again, I think that's a great thing: same input, different output. It makes the story of "how does a Grasp user fight a Conqueror user" way clearer and more interesting: the Grasp user wants to proc Grasp and DISENGAGE, the Conqueror user wants to proc Conqueror and STICK. Clear success criteria, different optimal cases mean that these two runes will be able to coexist without one pushing the other out.

While I definitely agree with this, the visibility of Conquerer's effect compared to the strength it can have in a 1v1 concerns me, especially on particle-heavy champions (like, say, Tryndamere with his fury and his healing occupying space on his model) or motion-heavy champions (like Riven).

I can definitely see a situation where a Grasp user tries to stay in combat for multiple Grasp procs (which I've seen on many occasions), only to lose horribly to a Conquerer build he didn't remember had activated. I know that's kind of just an awareness burden that exists elsewhere, but given the long-term potential power behind the buff and the similar warm-up the two keystones (likely to occupy the same lane) share, as well as the incentive to try to maximize Grasp hits, I wonder if a more visible Conquerer indicator might be a good idea, if only to remind players that it's still in play -- especially since it's one of the few keystones with a long-term effect you need to really plan around.

Thoughts?

AnataBakka1 votes

did you check the pbe? they've updated the vfx each day. The champion is now all glowy

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}

did you check the pbe? they've updated the vfx each day. The champion is now all glowy

Ah, I must be going off a previous update. Awesome news. Thanks!

RiotZenonTheStoic2 votes

WOAH what's a Herald? Are you gonna hurt my turret?

Yeah, totally agree on visibility of VFX, which is why we're still actively working on the VFX. What you're seeing at the moment is the very first draft of it. We've given the VFX artist the feedback that the effect is easily lost. Nevermind in teamfights (where I think it's okay for keystones to get lost), even in a 1v1 you can often not tell.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}

WOAH what's a Herald? Are you gonna hurt my turret?

...of course not, ZenonTheStoic. Of course not. Go worry about another lane. I hear bot is being pushed right now. -shifty eyes-

In actuality, we're part of the Volunteer Moderation team, focused mainly on internal-facing stuff and community/mod interaction.

Yeah, totally agree on visibility of VFX, which is why we're still actively working on the VFX. What you're seeing at the moment is the very first draft of it. We've given the VFX artist the feedback that the effect is easily lost. Nevermind in teamfights (where I think it's okay for keystones to get lost), even in a 1v1 you can often not tell.

Awesome. Was fairly confident this was going to be the case, but I'm glad it's on your radar. Personally, I'd consider if an overhead or underfoot effect might be a good thing to use here, or a background effect on a health bar -- those are places we don't see as many effects placed, so it might stand out more without needing to do something like occupying the entire character model.

Would have to mock it up though -- there's a chance that might make it TOO visible, although I'm not sure a massive AD boost + 20% conversion to true damage can every bee to visible. :P

DeathBurst1 votes

Why do you think that's a problem?

Because a good use of Grasp is typically a 4.1-seconds trade, whereas a good use of Conqueror is typically a 7 to 8 seconds trade. Even if the activation paradigm is the same, the trade patterns that the 2 keystones support are absolutely not the same. And as a consequence, direct comparisons of the two keystones are really hard, so the fact they have the same activation paradigm has really little value here.

But let me bounce the question back to you. Why do you think it's "very useful for the system to have two effects that say etc."? What's the added value of having a common activation paradigm?

It makes the story of "how does a Grasp user fight a Conqueror user" way clearer and more interesting: the Grasp user wants to proc Grasp and DISENGAGE, the Conqueror user wants to proc Conqueror and STICK. Clear success criteria, different optimal cases mean that these two runes will be able to coexist without one pushing the other out.

The comparison in a direct match-up is a very small subset of all the cases where the Keystones will be used. You'll have plenty of match-ups of Grasp vs something else, plenty of match-ups of Conqueror vs something else, and a relatively small minority of Grasp versus Conqueror. So, yeah, I agree with you, THIS story is clearer and more interesting, but this story is not all that important overall.

Another point, but on this one it's more speculation, I'm not entirely sure: I guess in a Conqueror versus Grasp Keystone, it's more likely that the Conqueror's user has the upper hand during laning phase. If my hypothesis holds true, then that means the Grasp user simply doesn't want to trade at all. They won't "proc then DISENGAGE", because they can't afford to. They'll just stand back and not proc Grasp at all. And I believe the hypothesis does hold true, because you're more likely to take offensive Keystone if you have a favorable match-up. If you have a hard match-up, you're more likely to take defensive Runes and stand back, waiting for team-fights.

EDIT: Re-reading your post, I realize that's maybe not what you meant. You meant that the two Keystones have clearly distinct optimal users, right? That's what you meant with "these two runes will be able to coexist without one pushing the other out." Well, yeah, I can agree with that, but then, if you don't intend the two Runes for the same users at all, what's the point of having a common activation paradigm? Again, this goes back to my first point: if there is very little relations between the two Runes, what's the added value for them to share the activation paradigm?

I've had some conversations around this and we currently feel that yes it can. It buffs almost only the behind case. If you're ahead and you can afford to stand in the minion wave and have the effect primed at all times, nothing changes for you. If you're too far behind to approach the enemy in the wave, you now have the option to use incoming poke as an opportunity to turn things around. I think that's a healthy buff.

That's a very good argument that I didn't think about, and I totally stand behind it. But I was more worried about the teamfight usecase. It basically means that most Grasp users will get an additional free proc at the beginning of a team-fight compared to before. Maybe that's negligible overall, I really don't know, you have much more data than me to answer that question. But that sounds like a hefty buff, not simply healthy as the laning phase situation.

MisterGuy1 votes

{quoted}

Hi! Thanks for this post, this is very well thought out and argued! You have very good design instincts, but we have one unfair advantage over you: we've actually been able to test out some of the things you suggest ;)

So your suggested activation paradigm where the keystone gradually ramps up in combat was the very first iteration of this rune that Stashu tried out. The problem with it was that it felt too inevitable; it didn't meet our standards for minimum gameplay as and against for a keystone. It was very much like Fervor of Battle in that way: essentially it's just a bunch of stats with no real way for the enemy to do anything about it.

My next iteration was having the keystone ramp up gradually while you were near an enemy champion. This had a couple of cool implications, such as allowing some ranged champions to opt in without making it broken OP for ADCs. Urgot was foremost on my mind here. He has a very bruiser-esque combat pattern and would really have loved this keystone, I think. At the time, the output was still adaptive (we default to adaptive when there isn't a good reason to make it either AD or AP only), so I had some hope for Ryze and Cassio as well.

Sidebar: why are we even making this thing? It's not like bruisers have no keystones. Most of them have a keystone that they post very good win rates with, and that players pick in large numbers. The problem is those keystones achieve these winrates by shoring up weaknesses in a champion's kit, rather than doubling down on a champion's strength. If Fiora runs Kleptomancy or Open Spellbook in lane, she does this to sustain herself through the lane and make sure she's not pushed out of CSing and put behind. This is functional and powerful, but I strongly suspect it's not what Fiora players want (and I'm almost certain Phase Rush isn't what Darius players want, and Kleptomancy isn't what Illaoi players want). It's good to have the option to shore up weaknesses to a degree, but it shouldn't be your strongest option, and it surely shouldn't be your only option. Weaknesses on a kit exist for a reason: they tell a story for the enemy team about how to handle this character. If you take that away, you make the game less interesting for either side. I suspect that DPS mages like Ryze and Cassio suffer from a similar rune shortage. They run Open Spellbook to survive the lane (Ryze) or Phase Rush to hunt down squishies in 1v1s/skirmishes or to dodge incoming damage in a teamfight (Cassio), but they don't have a good option if they just want to double down on their damage. This rune could have been an option. We have something else in flight that might do it for them.

(end of sidebar)

The problem with the range-based version was that it was very visually noisy (lots of circles) and very kit-bound (you either have or don't have the tools to stick on someone). Also the mindshare was just a little too high for a keystone. It did give the enemy something to do (i.e. wait until the full effect turns on, then create distance until it falls off), but it forced the enemy to play around the keystone more than around the champion.

We settled on the Grasp paradigm as something that has proven gameplay, and we think there's a pattern here that deserves abstraction into more effects; just like Phase Rush and Electrocute are both "land 3 hits to get X", I think it's very useful for the system to have two effects that say "stay in combat for 4s and attack an enemy champion for X". Uniqueness is not an absolute value. Sometimes being similar to another element of the system makes the decision space for the entire system richer.

You're also absolutely right in your assessment that this rune is going to be trivial to activate in lane, especially when you're ahead and when you can just afford to stand in the minion wave and always have it primed, and that it's much, much harder to make good use of it in a teamfight, where it's unlikely that you can actively prime it before the fact and where most of the important stuff usually happens in the first 2-3 seconds--either you or the enemy is likely to be dead or otherwise out of the fight.

However, we've decided that this is a good thing. We want to embrace this. Runes generally should exhibit most of their strength in the early game and then fade into the background later (some exceptions--like Dark Harvest--notwithstanding). It's also a pretty snowbally rune, which again, we like. This is meant to be a rune that doubles down on the strengths of bruisers without shoring up any of their weaknesses. Winning more when ahead is a very bruisery output, being better at split-pushing than at teamfighting is as well. There is a cost: you're constantly pushing if you're always in the minion wave, attacking to keep your Conqueror primed.

Finally, as one release valve output we've also decided that the first damage that puts you in combat puts you in combat for 4 seconds, so your fallback is when you're being poked you can decide to jump in 4s later with Conqueror fully primed. We're testing making this change for grasp as well.

I hope that all makes sense! Hit me up with any other questions you might have.

Hey man, thanks for the reply. Really helpful information. I'm glad you mentioned Urgot, because I feel like the removal of fervor really made him weaker this season. I was hoping that the new rune would help with that, but unfortunately the rune wasn't so optimal for ranged champions. I know the rune is still in the works, however I'm hoping that you guys can make it compatible for low range champions such as Urgot. Furthermore, I was also wondering if you guy are going to change which tree the new rune will be in. I was hoping for resolve tree, but you guys put it in the precision tree. Any reason as to why it wasn't in the resolve tree?

Rouwhorst1 votes

The problem with it was that it felt too inevitable; it didn't meet our standards for minimum gameplay as and against for a keystone. It was very much like Fervor of Battle in that way: essentially it's just a bunch of stats with no real way for the enemy to do anything about it.

Okay, first things first, you stated that it didn't meet your standards as and against, however, if I interpret it correctly, you only gave an argument for why it didn't meet the standards to play against: there is no way for the enemy to interact. I am doubtful this is all you use to determine if a rune is good enough or not, so please elaborate on the standards as and against.

Secondly, if the only good reason was that it had not enough counter play then... Then what about all those other keystones that have no way to play against? There are only a few I can list which you can moderately play against: Comet and Aftershock by actually dodging. (which is denied with some simple cc). By the way, the gameplay on comet is quite bad since the user has little control of it, it all depends on how well the enemy plays, effectively it decreases the reliability of the rune Some others are mainly cooldown gated, which could be considered as counter play, since you can counter-attack in the meantime: Electrocute, Predator, Aftershock, Guardian, Comet and phase rush. This cooldown can be well player around, both by opponents and users. But this playing around is only available beforehand and if your opponent gets to choose when an encounter occurs this counter play is completely negated. Another method is by walking away when a keystone triggers: Predator, dark harvest (20 seconds is long!), Lethal Tempo (1.5s is short) and PtA (3 attacks is little) If we ignore all those we are still left with some keystones: Grasp, Fleet Footwork, Aery, Klepto, Spellbook and Glacial Augment. (decreasing order of enemy influence) So clearly, not all keystones meet these standards. And moreover, the proposed solution still fits in with the walk away "counterplay". By saying the enemy has not enough ways to counteract this proposal, you reject the method of walking away, which increases the list... Additionally if you felt there was really not enough counter play why not cooldown gate it?

Finally the "continuously hit minions" is a bit lame. Keeping an eye constantly on the buff bar fearing that that thing will suddenly wear off, combined with the increased difficulty of wave management makes it generally not a very liked mechanic by players.

RiotZenonTheStoic4 votes

{quoted}

Okay, first things first, you stated that it didn't meet your standards as and against, however, if I interpret it correctly, you only gave an argument for why it didn't meet the standards to play against: there is no way for the enemy to interact. I am doubtful this is all you use to determine if a rune is good enough or not, so please elaborate on the standards as and against.

Sure: playing AS, the mastery had 0 reasons for you to do anything differently from what you were doing anyway. You played EXACTLY the same with or without Fervor of Battle. That's not good enough!

Secondly, if the only good reason was that it had not enough counter play then... Then what about all those other keystones that have no way to play against?

You're not wrong! A number of keystones we made do not live up to those standards. Comet is definitely one of them (but Aftershock absolutely isn't; the get out of the circle / keep them in the circle play is sufficiently different for both sides and players demonstrably make decisions around this). Comet if anything indexes TOO high on the playing against: it has the mindshare (how much of your time you need to spend thinking about it) of a champion spell in terms of "dodge the circle". That's too much for a keystone! I wouldn't be surprised if we replaced or reworked comet. The fact that we sometimes failed in the past doesn't make it okay to go forward and fail some more, though. We convinced ourselves at the time that comet would have play as, and we were wrong; we'll fix that. That doesn't mean we can say "well comet is live and it doesn't do the thing we want it to do, so now we can go and make more things that don't do the thing we want them to do". That make sense?

Nefas1 votes

Comet also deeply fails on satisfaction for the user (at least for me and I think a large number of mage players). It looks, sounds, and often feels like a wet noodle of damage. Plus either you have the Cc on your spell to guarantee the hit (VelKoz Q, Xerath W) or you just don’t and have to rely on bad pathing of your opponent.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}Comet if anything indexes TOO high on the playing against: it has the mindshare [how much of your time you need to spend thinking about it] of a champion spell in terms of "dodge the circle."

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the mindshare of picking up Summon Aery for additional procs? Speaking purely for myself I know it's something that's easy to forget and I'm almost certainly losing a lot of power because of it, especially as it makes some characters (Ziggs, Xerath, etc) play in ways they normally don't if you with to optimize it. I don't think that's an inherently bad thing, but I'd be curious to see if you have any way to track how often Aery is actually interacted with vs. how many times it's fire-and-forget. My suspicion is that the mindshare playing AS Aery is high enough that it's usually the latter.

Skorch2 votes

' "Idle Time". Four seconds without not benefits is a great downside of this keystone, even greater than it's benefits. Then again, Lethal Tempo it's somewhat impractical with 1.5 s delay, which is acceptable (kinda). But 4 seconds without keystone is something wrong. Even if you can activate it by attacking minions or monsters, it still not only inconsistent in some emergency situations, but it also unnecessary frustrating in said situations. We live in a context where champions like Garen or Renekton can die very fast in a fair amount of situations, and 4 seconds is a huge barrier for those players who are aware of said context."'

Excuse me but most if not all keystones dont have full uptime. Pretty much all of them have somthing needed to activate it, and none have 100% uptime (with a few ARGUABLE exceptions.)

Escheton1 votes

I will legit quit the game if this rune gets through. It makes every champion into a Fiora/Vayne/Yi. I already have an issue being unable to ban them all.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Vayne won't get much benefit much out of it, since she can't refresh it.

Yi doesn't perform well over gold as far as i know, at least OP.GG doesn't rate his overall performance well, and not because he lacks damage.

Fiora is definitely strong, but she relies a good deal on her passive for damage, and true damage doesn't feed the runes true damage so i dont think it will show any great increase in power on her.

Tryndamere, Yi, Yasuo, aatrox,jax and such champs are much more likely to become powerful off it, but most of the time they seem to have other issue´s keeping them from really being any good.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

I don't get why 4 seconds without a keystone is an issue when Electrocute and Comet both have sizeable CDs. Without them being off CD you are technically 'without' a keystone.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Jack Rabbit,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHXiioEA,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-02-28T03:55:30.653+0000)

I don't get why 4 seconds without a keystone is an issue when Electrocute and Comet both have sizeable CDs. Without them being off CD you are technically 'without' a keystone.

The difference is you can get the benefit of those keystones first, and presumably win the fight/trade off of it. Whereas this Keystone is possible to never process in regular play. The opponent just disengages before 4 seconds. Of course being able to set it up on minions negates this point (so I think it's fine, bruisers should be encouraged to push the Minion wave for more power - risk/reward) but OP also wants to remove the Minion point, which if they did it would be fair to let the Keystone ramp up instead of waiting 4 seconds.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

That makes more sense then.

I suppose the minion thing does kind of help this keystone in it's current form, but removing it for upfront power could work too.

LucifronSun1 votes

If popular opinion counts for anything on this, I'd like to add my vote to the "Please don't make it like grasp of the undying because that activation is garbage and I hate it" pile. I have to use grasp on garen because it's literally the only "decent" keystone on him, and I'm loathe to see my only chance at a good new keystone for him turn into the exact same one that I already hate playing with.

Familiar Faces1 votes

I would like to suggest an overhaul of this concept via your consideration of four ideas. Before that, I 100% support the in active champion combat charge time and i may forget to mentin but each of these 4 ideas actually consider this a pre-requisite.

.

  1. Instead of flat AD, make it amplify Base AD.

50% Base AD comes to around 60 AD on stronger melees.., so make it scale as the game goes on from 20% Base AD to 40% Base AD (not 50% so that you can account for how broken it'll be on sheen users).

  1. Lower the true damage conversion from 20% to 10%.

...And make that part of the skill temporary and but recurrent (like lethal tempo) until you've tested it appropriately on Akali, Rammus and Mundo at least. Also clarify what Kayle using her E qualifies as (whether ranged or melee since you didn't specify melee attacks refresh buff but "Melee Only" which may refer to melee champs only)

  1. Consider moving this skill to Resolve tree and making it appropriate stat wise.

Gasp of the Undying is a bit lack luster for bruisers but it does aim to provide a 'reward' for being in combat. What added damage should look like in this tree ought to be related to the health or resists built. My idea is convert the amount of Bonus HP relative to the base HP to a percentage and make that percentage grant equivalent to Bonus Base AD (capped differently for melee and ranged champions of course). So if your melee champion has a Base HP at lvl 18 of 2000 and you have 3000 total HP then you have 50% of your base HP in Bonus HP. After 4 seconds in champion combat, grant the champion 50% base AD (assuming the maximum cap isn't below 50% for melees).

  1. Move skill to resolve tree and increase the threat of a champion based on total AND %missing HP.

Perhaps this is the concept that ought to replace Grasp of the Undying. But regardless, a champion should do occasional max hp based damage based on their max hp and this damage should be magnified by how low they are. If used to replace Grasp of the undying then say the typical 4% max hp dmg proc after four seconds with half of that vamped as healing. If that champion is missing %50 of their hp then the 4% max hp is magnified by 50% (of missing hp) to make 6% max hp of damage proc half of which is vamped. Alternatively if used on conquerer it can provide either stats and/or true damage conversion amplified by how low a champion is. Like for instance if conquerer gave flat AD or AP based on hp built and these base stats got amplified by how low the champion is. Or if conquerer gave a base percentage of true damage conversion after a small while in champion combat and this amplified based on how low that champion is.

In summary as it stands I think the skill is a tad OP and has no interesting themes except melee preference. Bonus flat AD, converting some damage to true damage is quite offensively generic. At the core of a bruiser is the idea to balance tankiness with offensiveness. This keystone manages to not thematically represent that as is. the 2nd suggestion is more a tuning issue but the 1st, 3rd and 4th more directly explore building like a bruiser.

P.S. I you want a quick tweak on grasp of the undying.., consider giving grasp bonus healing (and shielding?) from all sources like spirit visage but instead of flat, make it like Olaf's W and scale based on missing HP. Grasp of the Undying paints a picture of a beast that refuses to keel over. So thematically should be used to emphasize champions who cling to life while being at the edge of death (taking damage, high sustain like the juggernauts)

Vaylen Obscuras1 votes

Why exactly is this in precision? While it is aimed at sustained damage(And AS is sustained damage), it feels really awkward on all those dps-casters that simply do not care or scale with AS. Renekton, Kled, Riven, Wukong, Jarvan, Fiora etc. etc. All of those bruisers that have no clear choice atm(Most opt for electrocute, even though it should be a situational/jungle choiice).

In precision, you already have Press the Attack. The rune, with its mixed burst/enhance output(Especially after recent changes), is powerful on most of those bruisers, as they can proc it quickly and they benefit from the damage amp in teamfights(Target Selection+defence). Conqueror and PTA, while being completely different, fill a pretty damn similar spot. This leads to Conqueror just being completely unnecessary within precision(Already have PTA, why have a second version?). It feels very similar to the comet/aery case: They both do, for the most part, the same thing. Aside from Aery having an interesting niche for heals/shields, it really doesnt matter what you do with either. Conqueror/pta will fall into the same category by virtue of being in the same tree - with the added problem of AS being a really wonky early game stat(Most want straight AD for lane, jungle usually wants ad/as mix - even for most high AS scalers). Currently, thanks to split+buff, I am "forced" to take the unwanted AS stat, due to how good PTA is on most of these bruisers(Which, incidentally, feels like lockiing me into domination or sorc secondary, locks me out of inspiration secondary completely).

If a decision doesnt matter, it is no decision anymore. Conqueror pushes even more bruisers into Precision, despite AS being a bad stat on them - and due to the split, it is impossible to take inspiration secondary and makes it hard to take resolve secondary(Especially for lane dominant chams like Kled or Renekton). The rune itself seems like a really good idea. But the precision tree needs to either let Conqueror or PTA go.

On a sidenote: What exactly do you think about the AS stat on precision in general? Very few champs want AS early, they want AD. Even on-hit ADCs tend to like early AD more. The split actually feels like benefitting those on-hit champs more than the ones who really dont want early AS(Draven, Lucian), as the bit of AS is at least useful for those on-hit champs. Aside from that, AS is most effective within the jungle for clearspeed. But even the likes of Master Yi like the split more(More burst in ganks is valuable). As I see it atm, the best stat on Precision would be simple AD, no AS at all. Give it AS based keystones and masteries, but not the stat itself. Id wager it would even be more powerful(much more!) by simply shifting the stat to AD(Overall, it feels like Precision has many high-impact minor runes with a lot of gold value within them). Stuff like Triumph is too good on frontlines in teamfights(Especially bruisers). Free LS and Tenacity is worth its weight in gold. A high damage increase option for every type of champ in the last tree(Often times performing evenly to some keystones like Aery or Electrocute). Any thoughts on this?

SkittleBomb1 votes

So, a rune that provides a haunting guise passive but true damage and ramping as/ap adaptive

Zizzek1 votes

OK, I think I'm dumb and I don't really understand how it works, specifically: "after 4 seconds in combat your first attack...".

  1. Does this mean I have to have a 4.1 second trade with my opponent before this turns on? Because that won't help the croc at all...
  2. Does this mean that after I hit a minion, in 4.1 seconds this turns on (e.g. like Camille's 2nd Q cast after 2sec, or like Jax's passive stacking it on minions)?

What is the cooldown, text doesn't say (e.g. it turns on, you don't hit enemy champion, how long before it turns back on)?

Overall, I think this is a great idea. To me It means:

  1. No one but pure tanks will be taking grasp/aftershock (e.g. no Riven aftershock).
  2. Hell, even Camille might drop comet for this/she won't be perma-pick-ban especially in pro.
  3. Squishy ranged champs will have a much harder time dominating melees.
  4. I means that all the bruiser v bruiser matchups are going to be on a knifes edge, which means more jungle attention top (which means people can stop whining about getting 4-manned bot all the time :P)
  5. This will open up the meta a ton (e.g. meaningful sion counters are now viable that don't lose the game once you group).
SuperRiceBoi1 votes
  1. My question is how it will work on ADCs. This looks like it will work well on champs like Vayne and Kaisa . I'd want to try it out on Kalista too. Will they nerf the true damage ratio for ranged champs? Probably (though I hope not), but this will make for interesting teamfight if they last long enough. Of course, this keystone will be disgusting if you're kiting or getting kited.
MadViking1 votes

This Keystone is going to destroy melee top laners...

It's going to be good for ADCs to shred tanks, but also ranged poke top laners are gonna spam the hell out of this -- effectively destroying all melee tanky champions.

I don't know what Riot was thinking with this Keystone.

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