The forgotten cycle

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r1JLGzIF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-19T00:59:05.117+0000)

I miss the times when ADCs were scared of getting close to a mage.

They still are, but only if that mage is a support lol.

Unless they're lategame Vayne they still are, without their team

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r1JLGzIF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-19T00:59:05.117+0000)

I miss the times when ADCs were scared of getting close to a mage.

I miss the times when ADCs were scared of getting close to an assassin, instead of hunting them down

The unseen carry is the deadliest.

Support is in the centre because supports are the lords and masters of the infernal realms, biding their time in the darkness before the other classes summon them into the overworld, to purge the unworthy and place wards on the moon.

Actually, supports used to have their own cycle too: poke > all-in > sustain > poke

Too bad "poke" is merged with "all-in" and it's been a constant fight of sustain vs. all-in.

[{quoted}](name=Lil Homie busta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r1JLGzIF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-19T02:46:06.139+0000)

Did you noticed that champions who doesn't follow this cycle are the ones that people hate the most?

I don't know the last time I've heard anyone complain about Fiora. She's been in a solid spot for a while now.

Zoe gets destroyed by tanks and assassins as much as any other immobile mage, what do you mean?

While sure you can try to land an E on an assassin they will either wait to use their escapes/invulns for it (zed ult) or burst you down before the E even puts them to sleep which is usually the case unless its very, very early on.

Coupled with that the damage on a point blank Zoe Q is absolute garbage and definitely wont keep an assassin from pursuing you.

This USED to be true.

Mages being immobile meant they couldnt get away from the assassins, but usually outrange/combo the marksman since they were also immobile.

Fighters die before they get in range, as their mobility is usually very minor or movespeed boosts at best. Tanks have all the mobility.

It makes sense for a mage not to beat an assassins because they have mobility to dodge skill shots. Think of zed, his ult allows for dodging most of mage kits so it actually makes sense. However I do not believe that you should automatically lose.

Why is a mage potent against a squishy marksman, but not a squishy assassin?

Because assassin are too nimble for mages to hit, and jump on you to kill you before you can react. And Marksmen don't have the burst to kill them before they kill you.

That's the philosophy behind it, I'm not saying it's actually how it plays out in game.

Hibeki mentioned that this model was made some time ago, and doesn't entirely hold up in today's game state, but here's my take on those questions:

{quoted}

Why is a mage potent against a squishy marksman, but not a squishy assassin?

Assassins are mobile and are designed to close distance very rapidly between themselves and their target. By contrast, mages frequently rely on dodgeable abilities and their range to operate. Because assassins are well-equipped to counter some of the core strengths of mages (plus their burst is innately good against their squishiness), they have an advantage against the class, all else held equal.

{quoted}

How is a fighter beaten by immobile squishy carries, but beats the one that can get away from them?

Fighters are a class whose core weakness is kiting: because mages and marksmen are the best-equipped classes for kiting opponents, they are therefore best-equipped to counter fighters, namely by whittling them down and keeping them out of reach. However, fighters are also durable, and so can resist the burst of assassins and out-duel them as a result. Fighters therefore counter assassins.

{quoted}

Have you ever had to deal with a diver that doesn't die in one combo as a mage?

There used to be a time where divers didn't go for Lethality builds, and so were much more durable (plus Lethality divers basically play like assassins anyway), so it was indeed possible for a diver to survive a mage's combo, even if they still had trouble reaching said mage thereafter. A lot of people forget that divers are tanky too, or at least are supposed to be, even if they're not literal tanks.

{quoted}

139 champions don't fit nicely into 6 strict categories as it turns out. League doesn't follow a rock, paper, scissors system because it doesn't work in League.

I completely agree, and Riot too has acknowledged this by stating multiple times that they have no intention of grouping every champion and sticking them all into neat little boxes for purposes of homogeneity. This is also why they tend to look at classes and see how they can introduce elements one typically doesn't have via a new champion, often with pretty good results. Urgot made no sense for a very long time, but clicked into place very nicely when he was framed as a juggernaut with marksman elements, for example. Riot has also stated a clear desire to emphasize counterplay over counterpicking, which is also why any sort of innate class counter (which still exists, by the way) can still usually itself be countered with skilful play.

{quoted}

139 champions don't fit nicely into 6 strict categories as it turns out. League doesn't follow a rock, paper, scissors system because it doesn't work in League.

Uhm isn't that why there is also the "specialist class"? And the fact that some champs are considered combinations of 2 classes(for example Varus being a combination of an artillery mage and a marksman)

{quoted}

It's pretty flawed in regards to mages and assassins fighters tbh.

Why is a mage potent against a squishy marksman, but not a squishy assassin? How is a fighter beaten by immobile squishy carries, but beats the one that can get away from them? Have you ever had to deal with a diver that doesn't die in one combo as a mage?

The truest form of this is Sustained -> Tank -> Burst -> Sustained, but this is too simple, and doesn't cover many qualities of champions and roles in League. It all breaks down even worse if you try to break it up by class. 139 champions don't fit nicely into 6 strict categories as it turns out. League doesn't follow a rock, paper, scissors system because it doesn't work in League.

First question: Assassins used to be the uncontested kings of getting in close to a squishy target and blowing them up in 2 or 3 seconds. Mages couldn't do jackshit about that back then.

Question 2: Fighters were not in the habit of jumping on the backline and blowing up the adc like they have to be today, and DPS beats tankiness.

Question 3: Mages beat fighters because they outrange them and have access to high amounts of Magic Pen. This let them safely chip them down from far away.

Believe it or not, this diagram was the foundation upon which League was built, and it worked pretty damn good. Nowadays it's become so skewed that the game has become warped beyond repair.

when dragon gave gold? when it was inefficient to focus on reaching 40% cdr, and you actually needed significant gold to achieve the power level of your champion's archetypal performance - which left room for early play and the "early-mid-late" arc that we all appreciated with champions who "fall off." It was a concession to rush a zhonyas, it left you feeling feeble. With snowballing out of control, every champion who isn't balanced around "you finished your second item, you are become god" basically can not function in competitive. The ADC role who used to fit this mold have been compensated by the fact supports are buying items for them, leaving them with little to no weaknesses.

Teambuilder

i dont think so but i had got all mine when they came out