Balance team, how long you guys are going to pretend that Ignite is fine?

Lil Homie busta·Oct 4, 2018·86 votes·17,277 views

Because I'm already tired of this Bull. World's patch is out already, there's no excuse now.

59 Comments

PowerSlave993Oct 4, 201814 votes

Nami Takes exhaust Draven "Da fuq you're doing NAMI! TAKE THE GOD DAMN IGNITEE!!!!" Nami "But... i need exhaust" Draven "Ignite IGNITE IGNITE!!!"

The rest of the team "Come on Nami, take the ignite you piece of sh*t"

GG EZ

GlaricionOct 5, 20182 votes

You think that's an argument, but that's just what happens whenever a support does anything whatsoever.

ᴵᵗ'ˢ ʷʰʸ ʷᵉ ˢᵒᵐᵉᵗᶦᵐᵉˢ ᵠᵘᵉᵘᵉ ᵗᵒᵖ ᵃⁿᵈ ᵉⁿʲᵒʸ ᵇᵉᶦⁿᵍ ᶠᵒʳᵍᵒᵗᵗᵉⁿ ᵇʸ ᵇᵒᵗʰ ᵗᵉᵃᵐˢ ᶠᵒʳ ᵃᵗ ˡᵉᵃˢᵗ ¹⁵ ᵐᶦⁿᵘᵗᵉˢ.

BŁOODMONEYOct 4, 201810 votes

What kind of question is this and why does it has so many upvotes

Lil Homie bustaOct 4, 201824 votes

We all know that Ignite has been overtuned for months. You should know that, since most of the games has +5 ignites among the players, its not hard to notice it.

Bob the ToastrOct 4, 20186 votes

I know right? Usually both mids, both supports, and at least one of the top laners.

rawiazam1Oct 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lil Homie busta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=piuaFE6k,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-10-04T10:50:07.579+0000)

We all know that Ignite has been overtuned for months. You should know that, since most of the games has +5 ignites among the players, its not hard to notice it.

could say the same about flash

Hellmaximus1Oct 5, 20181 votes

It's because they nerfed exhuast (removed the attack speed reduction), than a few months later gave ignite a 150 damage buff, than it became pretty common to take top after they nerfed teleport (atleast in solo queue).

TegashOct 4, 201839 votes

Ignite has the same cooldown as Exhaust and Cleanse, while outperforming both of them. It's Grievous Wounds (which is only found on three items) on a stick, in addition to true damage over 5 seconds. It can also proc electrocute, which in my opinion is a very poor design choice.

The only spells that have a lower cooldown than Ignite are Ghost and Barrier. Ghost has no value against Ignite specifically, and Barrier can block two ticks of Ignite's damage if you time it perfectly, but often will block only one.

Heal was nerfed some time ago because it was "too oppressive" out of the botlane, and Teleport was nerfed soon after when botlaners started taking it over Heal. Meanwhile over this period Ignite has had its damage increased to support the assassin meta Riot has been pushing.

It is a powerful spell with very little counterplay. You can't use Heal or potions to stop it, and if you Cleanse the wrong thing you lose the ability to Cleanse the enemy's Ignite (and the damage still accrues, it's only the GW that's gone).

Barrier, which is Ignite's only counter in summoner spells (sorry if you didn't bring a shield champ with you gaiz), can only block 40% of Ignite's damage at most, so if Electrocute pops your shield while you're still in kill range, you're screwed.

DarukongSrOct 4, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Ignite has the same cooldown as Exhaust and Cleanse, while outperforming both of them. It's Grievous Wounds (which is only found on three items) on a stick, in addition to true damage over 5 seconds. It can also proc electrocute, which in my opinion is a very poor design choice.

The only spells that have a lower cooldown than Ignite are Ghost and Barrier. Ghost has no value against Ignite specifically, and Barrier can block two ticks of Ignite's damage if you time it perfectly, but often will block only one.

Heal was nerfed some time ago because it was "too oppressive" out of the botlane, and Teleport was nerfed soon after when botlaners started taking it over Heal. Meanwhile over this period Ignite has had its damage increased to support the assassin meta Riot has been pushing.

It is a powerful spell with very little counterplay. You can't use Heal or potions to stop it, and if you Cleanse the wrong thing you lose the ability to Cleanse the enemy's Ignite (and the damage still accrues, it's only the GW that's gone).

Barrier, which is Ignite's only counter in summoner spells (sorry if you didn't bring a shield champ with you gaiz), can only block 40% of Ignite's damage at most, so if Electrocute pops your shield while you're still in kill range, you're screwed.

While I agree ignite is over tuned and with most of what you said, you need to be careful about your barrier vs ignite argument. Technically barrier doesn't just block ignite. You can't compare barrier vs ignite simply on the basis of how many ticks it blocks. Barrier can still block a ton of damage, so even if it only blocks a little of ignite, it blocks a flat amount of other damage as well in a given timeframe, and so its net effect is unimpeded. Barrier is still a fine choice against ignite because it will potentially block enough damage to prevent a death.

TegashOct 4, 20184 votes

Oh, I totally agree with that assessment, which is why I listed Barrier as Ignite's only counter.

ValyrianBladeOct 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Oh, I totally agree with that assessment, which is why I listed Barrier as Ignite's only counter.

And barrier has a shorter cooldown than ignite...

Ignite is making a play. That should be encouraged. Barrier gets a shorter cooldown and is denying a play.

If ignite is op, barrier is too. Just because barrier only lasts long enough to cover 2 ticks doesn't mean it isn't able to block the abilities and auto attacks that came in as well. If you thought you didn't need barrier and were mistaken, that's sort of your own fault for using it after all their burst went down...

I've been denied by barrier way too many times (by decent players actually blocking my burst, not just my ignite) to agree with this thread. I think ignite is definitely strong (in solo queue it's definitely the strongest after flash, yet we constantly see tp nerfs) but it's not out of line compared to barrier. Nerf them together if at all.

10 fpsOct 5, 20182 votes

Barrier lasts for 2 seconds and ignite lasts for 5. Ignite also outdamages Barrier's shield. So many times I've been ignited, no follow up damage from the enemy, I use barrier and I still die because after barrier wears off ignite is still ticking.

TegashOct 5, 20181 votes

If you have a pot going while Barrier is up, you heal without taking any damage (because the shield blocks it first). If you're far enough away from the enemy by the time Barrier goes down, then you will probably survive.

saltranOct 5, 20182 votes

But if you use Barrier when the enemy is doing an all in, or at least a huge trade it will absord all of the dmg the shield can absorb and overall will prevent more dmg than Ignite would do.

EedatNov 8, 20181 votes

Barrier is actually larger than ignite early game and you're using it wrong. You're supposed to use it when the burst is coming in

CudyDarkyzOct 4, 20182 votes

Just want to point something cleanse removes ignite completely it damage ticks and all.

TegashOct 4, 20181 votes

Cleanse only removes Grievous. The damage ticks keep going.

CudyDarkyzOct 5, 20184 votes

You are incorrect. https://youtu.be/rnYqW2-x2z0

TegashOct 6, 20181 votes

...When did they change that? I know in seasons 5 and 6 that Cleanse only removed the GW.

EDIT: Apparently that was actually a bug and was patched out in 5.18.

Z3SleeperOct 4, 20182 votes

Heal actually negates more damage than Barrier vs Ignite, despite the GW.

TegashOct 4, 20182 votes

Actually, Heal heals for 110 less than the amount Barrier shields for.

Heal gives 345 in the lategame, Barrier gives 455. In addition, at level 1 Heal heals for 90, and Barrier shields for 115. So the midlaner taking Barrier against the botlaner taking Heal (which the midlaner also has level advantage for scaling) will block more damage from Ignite.

Taking the scaling amount into account, Heal actually gets less value than Barrier over the course of the game, initially being 78% as effective as Barrier, and scaling down to 75% by the end of the game.

With the added Grievous Wounds, max level Heal only heals for 246 against Ignite's 505, and level 1 Heal heals for a piddly 64 health against Ignite's 80. And on top of that, Ignite's cooldown is 30 seconds lower than Heal's, and that's not counting additional cdr with Lucidity boots and Cosmic Insight.

Z3SleeperOct 5, 20181 votes

Barrier doesn’t last Ignite’s full duration. Redo your math with this in mind then check back. There’s actually already been research done on this and posted on the wiki.

Essentially, cut the Barrier value in half and that’s the actual amount blocked.

Sorry on my phone not linking atm.

TegashOct 5, 20181 votes

If you had actually bothered reading my initial explanation, I already said that Barrier blocks two of Ignite's ticks, max.

It is still Ignite's only counter.

Regardless, none of what you said has any relevance to the fact that Heal is less effective than Barrier. Heal doesn't last through Ignite's full duration either, and Ignite counters it. Why do you think supports take it?

Z3SleeperOct 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Regardless, none of what you said has any relevance to the fact that Heal is less effective than Barrier.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ignite

Alright fine then since now that I'm back and can link it and you obviously didn't look it up, here it is.

Scroll down to the literal chart that shows effectiveness of Heal and Barrier vs Ignite at all levels.

"Heal will always negate more damage than Barrier. Note that Heal will absorb a larger portion of Ignite's damage at lower levels."

/thread

TegashOct 5, 20181 votes

Congratulations, you know how to apply concepts in a vacuum! But alas, in a real game there is no such thing as perfect conditions. Good try though!

In most games there are other damage sources in addition to Ignite (such as the famous Electrocute most assassins take in the midlane) that will immediately undo Heal and still kill the player anyway.

It doesn't matter if Heal theoretically is more effective than Barrier, because in practice it is not. You can use Heal against Ignite all of once during the laning phase, because Ignite is up 30 seconds sooner than it. If you survive the level 3 all-in, you will die when the opponent hits 6. And will Heal save you when they buy Draktharr or Luden's and chunk you for 30% health per ability cast? Doubtful.

ValyrianBladeOct 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Congratulations, you know how to apply concepts in a vacuum! But alas, in a real game there is no such thing as perfect conditions. Good try though!

In most games there are other damage sources in addition to Ignite (such as the famous Electrocute most assassins take in the midlane) that will immediately undo Heal and still kill the player anyway.

It doesn't matter if Heal theoretically is more effective than Barrier, because in practice it is not. You can use Heal against Ignite all of once during the laning phase, because Ignite is up 30 seconds sooner than it. If you survive the level 3 all-in, you will die when the opponent hits 6. And will Heal save you when they buy Draktharr or Luden's and chunk you for 30% health per ability cast? Doubtful.

You're the one that considered barrier in a vacuum against ignite when saying it only covered 2 ticks of damage, as if the duration was all that mattered and completely ignored that the total value of the shield was bigger than ignite's damage.

Learn to fight fair. Either focus in a vacuum and accept when you're proven wrong in your vacuum, or focus in the real game and accept when you're proven wrong there.

In either case, your strict argument (that barrier is weaker than ignite and it's only counter) has been proven wrong in every case.

Z3SleeperOct 6, 20181 votes

I'm only here to disprove this:

{quoted}

Taking the scaling amount into account, Heal actually gets less value than Barrier over the course of the game, initially being 78% as effective as Barrier, and scaling down to 75% by the end of the game.

Which I did. Soooo...

#/thread

Hellmaximus1Oct 5, 20181 votes

IT also gives vision as well.

SSJ DevoOct 5, 20181 votes

I died from a Electrocute proc after living Zed's entire ult combo and him igniting. I could've lived even with being ignited, but the Electrocute being able to synergize with it put it over the edge. When 3 (top, supp, and mid being the most common) out of 5 players on a team take ignite (even then I still see adc's taking it and junglers going smite/ignite), kinda lets you know that something has to give. But we all know when the balance team gets to ignite, if they do, they're just gonna nerf into the ground to the point where its unuseable like so many other things/champs that they have attempted to "balance".

SleepcomaOct 4, 20181 votes

the boards are full of little kids who bandwagon and complain

SnugglesnacksOct 4, 20186 votes

You know, sometimes when a lot of people point out a problem... it's actually a problem...

SleepcomaOct 5, 20182 votes

You know, when people with no idea how the game works complain about something, they are the problem not the game. Why would riot take balance ideas from someone in bronze, because they're opinions are backed up by the fact that they don't know how to play the game.

Vivial MoonOct 4, 20186 votes

In the midlane when we both have the same level, ignite takes more than 1/4 of my hp*[sg-soraka]*

Wizard BlazeOct 4, 20186 votes

but muh LC$

SleepcomaOct 5, 20181 votes

but lcs is over, and riot would fix it if it was actually a problem

MadNoffOct 4, 20182 votes

What about flash? Gets picked way more frequently than ignite. At this point why even give two summoner slots, just make flash permanent and give one summoner slot.

No one complains about flash though. I wonder why?

ShablagooOct 4, 20181 votes

shhh they havent found out yet

VexilusOct 5, 20181 votes

I have

ZackTheWaffleManOct 4, 20186 votes

because flash is utility and not just direct damage

also shaco doesn't take flash

Gramps69Oct 4, 20183 votes

A small subset of champions don't take flash. Shaco, Hecarim, some Olafs, jungle Mundo and Shyvana used to/sometimes still do take exhaust, solo lane Heimers oftentimes don't since they can just sit under their turrets when ganked. I've seen halfway decent Sorakas run exhaust and ignite/heal.

The main reason flash isn't an issue is because it has the second longest cooldown in the game, whereas only two summoners have shorter CDs than Ignite, and Flash is utility and can require skill to use to its fullest potential, while Ignite is just raw damage, GW, and can proc Electrocute. See the difference?

MadNoffOct 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A small subset of champions don't take flash. Shaco, Hecarim, some Olafs, jungle Mundo and Shyvana used to/sometimes still do take exhaust, solo lane Heimers oftentimes don't since they can just sit under their turrets when ganked. I've seen halfway decent Sorakas run exhaust and ignite/heal.

The main reason flash isn't an issue is because it has the second longest cooldown in the game, whereas only two summoners have shorter CDs than Ignite, and Flash is utility and can require skill to use to its fullest potential, while Ignite is just raw damage, GW, and can proc Electrocute. See the difference?

Not really, no. If taking two flashes was an option, I would never again use ignite.

SloggOct 4, 20182 votes

Agreed. It's totally bonkers. Last night I was playing Alistar and popped ult, had plenty of HP and got ignited and died and the death recap said it did 20% of my HP.

Totally out of whack.

VexilusOct 5, 20181 votes

You gotta time the ult right or it wont reduce the damage of ignite all the way

Hellmaximus1Oct 5, 20181 votes

You can't reduce true damage anymore (even with alistairs ultimate) since I think season 5?

ZaFishboneOct 4, 20181 votes

The problem is that the entire meta now favors damage and ignite is an important part of any 1-shot combo. Not saying that an Assassin meta is the best or even OK, but changing just ignite, and nothing else, would screw up even the one reliable way of winning in this meta.

DarukongSrOct 4, 20183 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that the entire meta now favors damage and ignite is an important part of any 1-shot combo. Not saying that an Assassin meta is the best or even OK, but changing just ignite, and nothing else, would screw up even the one reliable way of winning in this meta.

That's not a solid argument. It would simply open up other paths to victory. It's the "one" way simply because it's the strongest, not because there aren't viable alternatives that will surface once it is slightly weaker option.

ZaFishboneOct 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That's not a solid argument. It would simply open up other paths to victory. It's the "one" way simply because it's the strongest, not because there aren't viable alternatives that will surface once it is slightly weaker option.

Have you tried playing an assassin midlane? I mean other than zed. If you can't 1-shot people you are useless, because with the game being so short right now there is no time to make careful picks on the enemy team, and everyone having so much mobility and cc you can't kill even the squishy targets without a lot of frontloaded damage.

TLDR: with such short games assassins need to be able to pop off really fast and nerfing to much of their damage now would make the whole class useless.

DarukongSrOct 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Have you tried playing an assassin midlane? I mean other than zed. If you can't 1-shot people you are useless, because with the game being so short right now there is no time to make careful picks on the enemy team, and everyone having so much mobility and cc you can't kill even the squishy targets without a lot of frontloaded damage.

TLDR: with such short games assassins need to be able to pop off really fast and nerfing to much of their damage now would make the whole class useless.

Ignite still needs nerfs and the oneshot meta needs to end. Assassin's are super strong even without ignite to be honest. They have no problem at all deleting Squishies, I'm detecting a little bias. They have so much from lethality, burst keystone's, burst items, etc. They can practically oneshot half of the juggernaut class when even in level and items at least until late mid to late game. If assassin's are too weak just because ignite gets nerfed by like 30-60 damage, then they have other problems that need to be addressed as well.

KFCeytronOct 4, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Have you tried playing an assassin midlane? I mean other than zed. If you can't 1-shot people you are useless, because with the game being so short right now there is no time to make careful picks on the enemy team, and everyone having so much mobility and cc you can't kill even the squishy targets without a lot of frontloaded damage.

TLDR: with such short games assassins need to be able to pop off really fast and nerfing to much of their damage now would make the whole class useless.

Assassins' entire concept revolves around killing an unsuspecting enemy without giving them a chance to do anything. I'm pretty sure the only people who would complain about no more assassins in a PvP game are assassin players.