At this point, it's very clear that we need a 4th keystone option for every path

Lil Homie busta·Nov 19, 2017·264 votes·8,038 views

It's been 11 days since the new runes are here and is already very clear that a lot of champions simply doesn't fit well any keystones available right now:

The [Press the Attack] keystone doesn't fit well most of the old Fevor of Battle bruisers (with some exceptions of course, like Jax due to his mixed damage).
Some mages really miss the [Deathfire Touch] (DFT) and there's no equal or similar replacement for it in the Sorcery tree.
There's some champs that doesn't have any decent keystone option such as Nunu (that isn't better with others users of said keystone).
Some champs only have one decent keystone option and can't really choose their playstyle besides minor rune choices.

Creating an additional keystone for the paths that lacks some options would be easier to do, but it would be unfair. That's why i think that every path should have a 4th keystone. This is something that needs some urge, since most of those champions without fitting keystones lost a lot of winrate % and that created the situation of "Who else uses better the keystone wins".

149 Comments

RebonackNov 19, 2017120 votes

I would go so far as to say Resolve needs to be split into two different trees. One focused on Wardens/Beefy Enchanters (I want to be tanky and help my friends) and one focused on Vanguards/Juggs (I want to be tanky and hurt people). I feel like Resolve is trying to pack too much stuff into one tree and as a result many of the options don't feel great.

Honestly the other trees are mostly fine, there are just a few Keystones that are too similar to each other (most notably Aery/Comet and Lethal Tempo/Press the Attack). Those problems could be addressed by tweaking the functionality of the respective keystones a bit.

SpoofghoulNov 19, 201745 votes

100% agree with the resolve analysis

it suffers from the same problems as before the rune update but it got even worse now because there is less masteries that all this different stuff has to be crammed into

AlimentateurNov 20, 20173 votes

before it was the best tank tree you could get and voli wasnt as useless as he is now. Back then you could stack his passive healing while below 30% health with the mastery that granted you 200% increased healing while below 25% health and thus you were a great fucking tank as voli.

the scaling with the shorter game time is just awfull, like what point does a shield have that grants +8 or heals that are +10 stronger if anyone with press the attack just 3 shots you to death?

i feel like with the limited champions to play (before you could create 20 sets of masteries for every kind of troll situtation or just to test them out) and limited mastery options the force that drives ppl away from the game is alot stronger. while before i would spend the nights playing, im now just hanging around watching videos cause im not interested in a locked mastery game.

Lil Homie bustaNov 19, 201712 votes

I think that we do need more keystones. Trying to change the current ones into the something close to the missing keystones (FoB, DFT) will probably be a mess.

I also agree with you about the resolve tree/path. They could split it into [Faith] and [Courage]: The first is specialized in enchantments and ally protection (Wardens and Enchanters) and the other is specialized into durability and aggression (Vanguard and Juggernauts, maybe some niche fighters/bruisers). The names even makes sense, since Faith and Courage makes Resolve/Determination =D

Illâoi Evê SiônNov 20, 20172 votes

So Fervor of Battle would be in the Jugg Tree?

RebonackNov 20, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xayâh Bôt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UIhq9w1h,comment-id=00010003,timestamp=2017-11-20T12:14:33.869+0000)

So Fervor of Battle would be in the Jugg Tree?

I would say so, yeah.

Juggs, with the possible exception of Shyvana, have zero interest in early game attack speed. That means the Precision tree isn't very attractive to them and putting the Keystone they want there would just make it feel terrible for them. The Jugg/Vanguard tree would probably supply a nice chunk of early game HP, which Juggs can put to good use.

Critmaster GarenNov 19, 201720 votes

for resolve i can see a keystone thats basically a beefed up version of legendary guardian. you get stronger the more enemies are around.

this would be something that could please everyone who wants to main into resolve. it would fit the playstile of vanguards, wardens and juggernauts.

id say, move the health stack mechanic of grasp to a different rune (maybe even the new keystone), and have it trigger every time you take damage from an enemy champion with a certain cooldown (like 20 to 9 seconds dependent on level). give grasp something else instead.

Lil Homie bustaNov 19, 201716 votes

For juggernauts, i was thinking in a Resolve keystone that gives MS towards enemy champions for a brief time when you take some damage, and afterwards a shield would proc, a similar mechanic of Righteous Glory. I really don't think that Grasp fits well most of the Juggernauts. It's ok on them, but they could use something better and more fitting to the "Big dude rushing towards you" theme.

Critmaster GarenNov 19, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lil Homie busta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UIhq9w1h,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-11-19T17:09:57.831+0000)

For juggernauts, i was thinking in a Resolve keystone that gives MS towards enemy champions for a brief time when you take some damage, and afterwards a shield would proc, a similar mechanic of Righteous Glory. I really don't think that Grasp fits well most of the Juggernauts. It's ok on them, but they could use something better and more fitting to the "Big dude rushing towards you" theme.

i dont know. i just liked fearless and legendary guardian and im disappointed that they didnt make it into the new rune system.

tbh. not just keystones, but most runes could use a 4th slot.

legendary guardian would definitely be a nice alternative to mirror shell, iron skin, and conditioning. its a resistance steroid with its own distinctive mechanic.

fearless would be another mastery that could make a good defensive keystone. we could use a keystone rune that is entirely defensive and supports you in games where you cant regularly fight your opponent, have to play passive and farm out lanes.

every other keystone than guardian seems to expect of you to aggressively fight enemy champions to get their benefits. which might be part of the current snowball issues.

AzadetheNov 19, 20173 votes

fearless in a way did make it in. Aftershock is a majorly buffed up version of it with a different conditional (Immobilizing effects vs damage taken). But how many "juggernauts" do you know who don't have an immobilizing effect?

Also, tying it to immobilizes is pretty smart. "damage taken" is a component which gives control of the passive to your enemy, who can just use a small poke to bring out and proc Fearless, and then you are on cooldown during the actual fight. Immobilize puts the power in YOUR hand, and even encourages you to do your job more: diving in, ccing, and sustaining the immediate damage, and it's FAR stronger than fearless; It's basically a 2.5 second "I am Sejuani's passive" passive with the added bonus of aoe damage based on HP. It may force you to play aggressively, but it certainly doesn't kill you if you're smart. An immobilize means that the opponents won't be able to prevent you from running. Maoki and Leona: you go in, Immobilize, and then you use other skills on your way out. It doesn't mean stay in a fight until dead.

FutureCreatorNov 19, 201713 votes

{quoted}

But how many "juggernauts" do you know who don't have an immobilizing effect?

Illaoi Nasus Garen

AzadetheNov 19, 20173 votes

All three of which don't actually gain their sustain from being a tank, but from self healing and doing damage? Are you basically trying to argue these three should be able to be both tanks and hypercarries? Those are 3 of the highest dps champs in the game and you're trying to call them tanks. They may survive like a tank, but that's because they have % heals and aoe massive AD damage, 20% Life steal passive with the most powerful slow in the game and overtuned stacking, and Self heals and the capability for 97% Tenacity on a champ that can disengage slows, run fast, Silence, and deal a low Hp execute?

You may consider them juggernauts, but they are not what we're talking about when we say juggernauts....

azrolatorNov 19, 20174 votes

None of them have heals, none of them have highest dps, none of them have immobilze cc, one has lifesteal passive, garen doesn't have any slow, they are juggernauts. They are supposedly rugged fighters that have a hard time engaging but hard to survive against when they actually get in and stay in range. Everyone does far more damage right now, and there aren't any very good runes that amp most of these jugg guys up like your adcs and assassins and mages.

AzadetheNov 19, 20173 votes

Just wow. You cite 3 champions you know nothing about.

Illaoi: Slam: The Tentacle damages all non-structure enemies it hits along its length, healing Illaoi for 5% missing health if it hits at least one enemy champion.

In other words, if Illaoi has 6 tentacles out and is ulting with them, she heals for 5%^6th Missing HP per W or Q. She has a heal!

She also commonly builds a Death's dance for MORE sustain.

Nasus: Passive: 10-20% Life steal (commonly builds Spirit Visage to make this 26% life steal, sometimes even builds a Bloodthirster to push near 50% life steal.

Often builds Warmog's.

You can throw around semantics about life steal not being "healing" but the game mechanics treat it otherwise.

Garen: Passive: Garen passively regenerates 「 0.2 / 0.8% maximum health every half-second 」. This regeneration is interrupted for 9 / 4 seconds if he takes non-minion damage or if he is hit by an enemy ability. Regeneration increased to 「 0.4 / 1.6% maximum health every half-second 」 while below 25 / 50% of his maximum health. At level 11, damage from non-epic monsters will no longer stop Perseverance.

In other words, Garen has a near permanent mini warmog's as a passive. This is why he's so hard to kill..... he heals 3.2% hp a second when below 25% HP and escaping battle.

Again, you can argue about semantics of healing vs Life Regeneration, but he DOES have self recovery.

Damage? Omfg.... a Lethality or Crit Garen can erase a team in 2-3 seconds. If he goes tank, he erases teams in 15-20 seconds. At the same time, the team can 1v5 him and not kill him, because he effectively has between 60-97% Tenacity, which prevents him from being cc'd.'

Illaoi can mete out 6k damage a second with her ult, and if she manages to get 1-2 dead early in the ult, she can 1v5 their entire team. Illaoi's only real weakness is when someone stuns her right when she casts her Ult, so she can't immediately slam 5-6 tentacles. Late game with a Sterak's this disadvantage grossly disappears, and if you go Resolve, you can have 60-80% Tenacity on her, resulting in an unstoppable ult. Her E on an AD/Hybrid build can literally deal 76% of a target's Max HP just by hitting the spirit, and if a tentacle hits after the E, the tentacle can do the rest. Saying Illaoi does no damage is just crazy.

Nasus: Nasus usually does the most champion damage on ANY team, OR he just has free farm to take the other team's base. 95% Slow, .5 Sec coolsdown main damage skill which resets auto attacks.... builds trinity... That's not a damage dealer? I've seen a Nasus 1v5 a team due to his life steal + a laner free farming him to 400+ stacks. He can almost 1 shot turrets and champions alike. I don't know where you get off saying he doesn't do damage. it's true he doesn't often roam, but he doesn't need to.

azrolatorNov 21, 20171 votes

In other words, Garen has a near permanent mini warmog's as a passive. This is why he's so hard to kill..... he heals 3.2% hp a second when below 25% HP and escaping battle.

Again, you can argue about semantics of healing vs Life Regeneration, but he DOES have self recovery.

Yes, I am not arguing semantics, I was arguing against your claim he has heals and lifesteal. And you are wrong even about your revision. His passive does not work in battle. His passive does nothing to help him survive a fight, except to create more situations where he goes into a fight with more health.

I would say I was wrong about Illaoi, I thought that was regen and not heals. But considering your basic lack of knowledge of these champs, I am not sure you are a credible source either, but I admit I might be wrong on that one.

Nasus, I already conceded has lifesteal. Why you are attempting to prove me wrong by reiterating my correct statement I do not comprehend.

Everyone can build lifesteal or spellvamp. That has nothing to do with you claiming all these champs had heals and lifesteal built into their kits.

What is Garen's slow you are referring to by the way?

Tenacity does not prevent cc. Crit garen and lethality Garen wouldn't survive diving into an enemy team 2-3 seconds. The speed boost from his q breaks after the first cc, even soft cc. An enemy team having only 1 cc is ridiculous concept in this game. Garen's E, even when buffed with lethality or crit, does not do that much damage as you claim. A full build, maxed out E at level 16 will hit 8 times if you manage to find a target with no flash or dash or cc to move out of it. If he builds full pen you are looking around 1200 damage pre-mitigation. That won't 100-0 even a squishy adc even if they don't have the sense to turn around and easily kill him with lifesteal healing them back up. You can add some damage in with q and ult, and probably kill the squishy if they actually have no cc, no dash, no flash, are stupid enough not to attack him back. But even that solo kill takes 3 times as much time as what you are suggesting he can wipe an entire team with. He has no in-combat heal or lifesteal. If he took death's dance, he could get 50-60 health back on that solo target from his E, which is AOE so 1/3 of 15 lifesteal. The adc could do more than that in one hit if they sold all their equipment. Maybe 300 if he hits a team of 5 with all 8 stacks of his E, which is still less than a similar level fully built adc could do in 1 single hit. His E doesn't even hit all stacks in 2-3 seconds "OMFG" LOL. You just don't seem to know this champ at all.

Nasus does not have the highest DPS in game. I never said he didn't do damage, you are making a strawman argument to back up your ridiculous claims. You claim that you saw someone stack up his q for free, and he is somehow playing against a team with no range and no escape and no cc. I can see under that ridiculous circumstance he gets to put up the highest damage on the team. But most teams aren't made of complete noobs, picking melee squishies with no escape and no sense to build a bramble. Nasus is a solo pusher, able to take down a lane if left alone 1v1 later on, or draw more than 1 champ to deal with him, letting other lanes complete objectives. He does that. What he doesn't do, is be one of the top 3 DPS champs in game, which was your claim.

You just keep commenting on these 3 champs you know nothing about, and sink further into a hole trying to justify absurd claims. They aren't hypercarries, and they aren't tanks. They are juggs, meant to be hard to escape from and survive if they actually manage to get engaged. They don't have hard CC, mobility creep, new runes, damage creep, prevalence of grevious wounds, have all served to largely negate that role.

Critmaster GarenNov 20, 20176 votes

{quoted}

DrMundo Yorick Mordekaiser Olaf Shyvana (only the ult can trigger it)

TortungaNov 19, 201710 votes

I think the new keystone should mainly be for the old Fervor juggernaut users. They took that one for the extra AD it provided and nothing ells, as most juggernauts have excellent AD scaling. A new keystone should, in my opinion, at least give extra AD, combined with something that they maybe need.

My Idea for this could just be a Fervor type keystone that provides a % of your health as extra AD/AP adaptive whenever you deal damage with an ability or AA, with the addition that it will provide extra effects on certain health tresholds. Something like this;

Lust for battle: Whenever you deal damage with an ability or an AA against an enemy you get 1 stack of Lust of Battle, up to a maximum of 8 stacks. Each stack gives X% of your max health as extra AD or AP(adaptive). On 50% health each stack gives you X extra movement speed as well, and under 35% the bonuses are doubled.

This would not only be good for old Fervor Juggernauts, but could be used by other tanky fighter champions. Maybe a Swain, Signed or Vlad (champs that get a fair amount of extra health) might be able to use it as well as it gives AD/AP adaptive damage. And it would really fit well with the juggernaut role description of walking bulks of strength that will fight to the death.

Your suggestions sounds more something for a small rune then a keystone rune, as it just provides extra stats.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 20, 20171 votes

Wait why should it be for juggernut users when bruiser/fighter have been the best user of fervor? Riven, Camille, Yasuo, Jax, Renekton all were able to stack it pretty fast and could still keep fighting while their abilities were on cooldown. Every single one has AA resets, animation cancels etc to fully use it. Compared to juggernauts like yorick, nasus, darius who would take very long to actually use it. I don't say that juggers wouldn't use or couldnt use fervor but definitely not a new keystone based on fervor for juggers alone who didn't use it as good as fighters.

TortungaNov 20, 20173 votes

Most bruisers/fighters are doing fine with Press the Attack, as almost all of them have ways to reset their AA or have AS steriods and a good amount of them don't mind the 15% AS from it as well.

Jax/Irelia don't mind AS at all, and Jax has a AA reset as well Renekton has his W as a reset and to apply 3 stacks quickly if enraged. Camille has a reset in her Q Fiora has a reset in her E Yasuo Q counts as an AA

From all the bruisers/fighters, I think only Riven and Camille (maybe renekton as he doesn't really like AS) would benefit largely from a new Fervor type of keystone. The others are doing fine with Press the Attack, as their win-rate shows. A lot more of bruisers/fighters damage seems to come from their AA's then their abilities (Or their enhanced AA's), and so AS isn't a bad stat for them.

That's why i suggested a new fervor for juggernauts; Not because they were the main users, but because most of them that used it cannot really make good use of the new press the Attack and the rest of the precision tree.

And my suggestion wouldn't be exclusive for just juggernauts; Anyone that gets a decent amount of health could get some great value out of it, which includes champions like Renekton, Gnarr and Camille (three champions that build a decent amount of health, and all three have under 50% winrate as well).

You could just make it the old Fervor and put it in the precision tree giving flat AD per stack, but then you got to balance it for every AA user as well. Making it scale of health and putting it in the Resolve tree just makes more sense to me, as an aggressive keystone for the more tanky carries (including some bruisers/fighters, just not all of them).

But it was just a suggestion, and the core point i wanted to make is that a new juggernaut keystone (which Riot is thinking about) should provide flat AD for the old fervor juggernauts that used it.

ZetsüNov 19, 201720 votes

I'm just confused with the sorcery tree. Any champion that can run Aery or Comet, is almost equally capable of running the other one, with the overall effect being very similar. With the change in Phase Rush, Aurelion Sol has no keystone options right now. I haven't put much thought into it, so don't flame right aways, but perhaps just the entire removal of Comet with a totally different keystone replacing it?

KaìjuNov 19, 20173 votes

I've been going Footwork on Sol because of how desperate I am for something, since it at least has an AP scaling and gives move speed more regularly than Phase Rush does.

FairyfleurNov 19, 20173 votes

What about Glacial Agument? I haven't been playing him much lately but the rune doesn't seem too bad at all on him.

TortungaNov 19, 20171 votes

How would phase rush be if it would give movement speed based on your DPS over the last X seconds (to a maximum) It would be completely tailored for DPS classes that can get keep it going constantly.

It might mean more people that like movement speed will take it, but if that's a bad thing I don't know.

Nanuk PihoqahiakNov 19, 20173 votes

What about Vladimir, who used to commonly use Stormraider's? He's not really a dps mage.

FairyfleurNov 19, 20173 votes

Right now they're trying to solidify Aery's place as more of an enchanter/supportive option by nerfing the damage, but comet still does very little damage.

ThryaleNov 20, 20171 votes

reduce comet's CD or make it always hit, and it'd be great.

FairyfleurNov 20, 20171 votes

Doing either would just make it more like Aery, I'd rather increase the damage.

ThryaleNov 20, 20172 votes

then maybe just remove comet, buff the dmg aery does, and add a new keystone for DOT mages.

FairyfleurNov 20, 20172 votes

What about artillery mages then? I'd rather just add another, not remove comet.

ThryaleNov 20, 20171 votes

what about artillery mages? at the range they're firing from, comet is highly unlikely to actually hit unless the target was cc'd.

FairyfleurNov 20, 20174 votes

I'm almost positive that the length at which the comet is fired doesn't have any connection to how long it takes to fire. A teemo shroom hitting someone on the other side of the map and a lux Q will have their comets hit at the exact same time.

Z3SleeperNov 21, 20171 votes

Well you're right, cuz it doesn't affect it.

MAGA MAN X 2020Nov 20, 20172 votes

God I hope not. For malz comet sucks because if your E hops onto them as they retreat the comet always whiffs (unless you rush Rylai's I suppose).

ModKnightsKemplarNov 19, 201711 votes

I like this idea. I don't know about two different trees; I'm not sure there are enough solid rune ideas to support that.

But I think we could easily fit a fourth rune in each tree, as a start, and that would be a great help to many champs.

Akali PrimeNov 19, 20177 votes

yea i really dislike the fact that there are some champions that just dont blind very well with the keystones and their are other champions that blind TOO well with keystones.

the weeabooNov 19, 20176 votes

We need a support resolve tree and a tank resolve tree. Because a large majority of the resolve tree feels like it's meant for supports which leaves much to be desired for tank and juggernauts.

deadlychuckNov 20, 20176 votes

This will forever be the problem of the new rune system, which I pointed out before it was even released, hell before they even released all of the runes.

You can't make a system which abstracts bonus power into mechanics and then somehow expect things to ever work without almost as many number of options as there are champions.

The only way this system could be considered fair for each champion's balance, would be every rune existed as a side grade, rather than bonus power. However, every aspect of the game, including jungle monsters, CSing, towers, even item/stat values has been balanced around the existence of some out of game initial power bonus... which they removed... so they tried to shove it into the same system which would only work if it functioned as side grades...

BarcidNov 20, 20175 votes

Yes...

Four keystones. Jhin

Kingdom CornNov 19, 20174 votes

Idk what to take on graves anymore. I want to go precesion tree for the AS because you need it, but nothing in that tree works for him (keystones) So i just take phase rush instead -_- it feels so weird clearing jg with no AS.

HupsisNov 19, 20174 votes

Scorch is the replacement for deathfire touch. DoT champions are so scarce that they don't really need a keystone specifically made for them. Brand, Malza, Cassio and Singed can do just fine with the already existing keystones. No need to shoehorn these guys to take a mandatory keystone.

Nunu needs a VGU. Other than that there aren't really champions who suffer that much from the current variety of keystones. Ivern maybe... but he's a wacky guy anyways. The current keystones overall offer way more optimization than the previous masteries did.

Definitely agree on some champions being forced to take certain keystones. Gp and Ezreal with Kleptomancy is kinda mandatory. Easy fix would be to reduce the gold income based on how often the effect has been proc'd in certain time window. It's ok to have good champion/keystone interactions as long as the champion is not considerably weaker when picking alternatives.

Lintu PuckNov 20, 20172 votes

sad to see truth like this get downvoted. here, take an upvote from me.

ZT XperimentorNov 19, 20173 votes

Not surprised the rune/mastery merge turned out even more creatively limiting than before.

deadlychuckNov 20, 20174 votes

Which is explicitly why i was opposed to it as soon as they provided examples of the new system. This was obviously going to be the case from the start and it's just bad for the future of the game.

KennysDreamGirlNov 19, 20171 votes

Some mages really miss the [Deathfire Touch] (DFT) and there's no equal or similar replacement for it in the Sorcery tree.

but what about aery?

INoble KnightINov 19, 20178 votes

getting nerfed

KennysDreamGirlNov 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=INoble KnightI,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UIhq9w1h,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-11-19T20:32:13.038+0000)

getting nerfed

but aery is still the replacement for dft

Serika ZeroNov 19, 20179 votes

i don't feel like she's a replacement for dft

while, i like the design of a cute foxy spirit animal helping you around <3 you can proc her via auto attacks, and her damage is quite high

dft was more about dots or very high ad (like jhin) applying it. which is why aery doesn't fit to well.

She does to much damage with dots such as teemo poison, malza e and even auto attacks. But to little in mid to late game :( dft was much more balanced than aery is

MimrNov 19, 20176 votes

{quoted}

but aery is still the replacement for dft

Aery is meant for supports like Lulu who have both poke and shields in their kit. It's NOT supposed to be a mage keystone, and it's getting justly nerfed because it's outperforming Arcane Comet (which may need a buff itself, but that's another matter) and just deals too much damage overall.

FairyfleurNov 20, 20171 votes

Some mages can take it though, like Orianna .