We have all-purpose shields and magic damage shields....

L Psy Kongroo·Mar 30, 2016·117 votes·6,520 views

But why don't we have AD shields? As in, shields that only protect against physical damage.

118 Comments

L0ve Is BlueMar 30, 201685 votes

A counter to AD? Don't you dare think about this. Zhonya can make you do something against AD'S every 90sec and riot HATES it. Imagine if there was something to actualy counter ADs in the same dumb way that item 3155 does they would hate that even more.

RogueWillMar 30, 201615 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lemon Graber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uBgaYjW6,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-03-30T02:20:06.455+0000)

A counter to AD? Don't you dare think about this. Zhonya can make you do something against AD'S every 90sec and riot HATES it. Imagine if there was something to actualy counter ADs in the same dumb way that does they would hate that even more.

Honestly it would be pretty much the same as a normal shield, normally Ap comes into burst and AD comes into DPS so an AD shield would break from the DPS and woufd be way less effective on keeping you alive.

L Psy KongrooMar 30, 201612 votes

{quoted}

Honestly it would be pretty much the same as a normal shield, normally Ap comes into burst and AD comes into DPS so an AD shield would break from the DPS and woufd be way less effective on keeping you alive.

Maybe, but there are some AD champs who rely primarily on burst (lookin' at you assassins). Even against ADCs, being able to block 1 or 2 auto attacks could be the deciding factor in a fight, just like how Hexdrinker shield blocking 1 or 2 abilities is often the deciding factor in fights.

TacoTheKittenMar 30, 201617 votes

[deleted]

yoniameMar 30, 20164 votes

Illaoi Neither Gangplank does Illaoi any XinZhao of Tryndamere us Renekton

EvilRabbittMar 30, 20161 votes

Everyone forgets Caitlyn :C... oh you didn't know how her one shot trap build?

item 3031 item 3078 item 3087 item 3094 item 3036 item 3812

because standing your ground means not getting boots :P

Arsenic SulfurMar 31, 20161 votes

Statikk and Rapid passives don't stack

EvilRabbittMar 31, 20161 votes

100% crit is all I cared about, you can swap...

elon wątrobaMar 31, 20161 votes

PD op.

A CONFUSED KIDMar 30, 20161 votes

right now steraks is the item to counter their burst. i don't think that should be the case because steraks shield literally takes almost all of an adcs life late game to activate but unless they change the item more to be more suited to tanks another anti burst item shouldn't exist.

TacoTheKittenMar 30, 20164 votes

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Captain AishiMar 31, 20161 votes

Darius hp at level 18 2262 Draven hp at level 18 1952

good luck finding a base HP scaling that makes it good within a 300 hp scaling margin and making it off of max hp won't happen because it's why atmas was never allowed to exist in a viable state

alfavhunterMar 30, 20161 votes

Thad why a shield isn't the solution

If this item was made and had a passive that triggered at 30% hp it would be this

Gives 100% dodge chance (only stops AAs) for 1.5 seconds

B1naryB0tMar 30, 20161 votes

AD casters rejoice, suddenly all AA reliant champions have an insane counter item!

alfavhunterMar 30, 20161 votes

It would be tuned for AP

Example

It gives mana (200-300) CDR (20%) AP (45) and armor (40) And has that dodge, which could be tuned to be .5-1.5 seconds, the idea of the passive is to give the Mage a moment to react

B1naryB0tMar 30, 20161 votes

You missed what I was saying. If it only gave dodge chance, AD casters don't care, since they deal damage with abilities, whereas it shits on AA reliant champions, meaning AD casters are relatively much, much stronger.

alfavhunterMar 31, 20162 votes

Well I feel giving a fully immunity to physical damage for .5-1 second would be to strong on the item

B1naryB0tMar 31, 20161 votes

item 3157

alfavhunterMar 31, 20162 votes

The problem with that is this

One, it 'stops' AP damage Two, it makes you be in danger of being out of position when it ends to be evaporated the moment you are our due to enemy positioning Three rushing this means the Mage (who used mana) has no mana sustain in lane Four it requires not being hard CCed in any way to use it

And lastly four, the AD equivalent doesn't stop actions, gives armor penetration (making the armor on zonas useless) and the passive effects offer defensive and offensive stats when triggered

-as an extra note, AD have 2 AD MR options, while AP only have one, with many drawbacks to using its active effect that, on its gold budged consists of about 33% of the gold cost of the item, while the AD item is gold effective with just 1 of the passive effects (shield or bonus offensive stats)

Riot has stated they believe zonas active effect is worth the ~1K gold, so fine leave the price that high, but what we want is an alternate option

Riot can even make these exclusive like the hydra items, you can only have one

One stops only physical damage, give mana CDR and less AP, while the other gives an active that can prevent all damage but has extra drawbacks of can't fight back or move during it but offers almost twice the AP as the other item and possibly more armor as well

The point is we want an option that is more tuned for only physical damage, but gives mana and CDR as well, which are actually harder for a Mage to get now than AD

An adc can get max CDR with 2-3 items that are heavy in AD

Assassins usually build black cleaver and CDR boots and get 30%

Mages need the Penetration boots just to hope to do anything vs the current AD mr item using adc and assassins so we can't get the cheep 10%, meaning we have to focus 2-3 items on CDR, sure not to bad similar to the other right? Well now consider this, we also need mana to be able to continue a fight, mana regen, and spell pen to hope to get through the MR stacking that's happening from the enemy squishies who are getting just as much damage out of them as if the built a blood thirster, and more benefit when they hit 30% hp than a BT will give for more damage and survival stats

The issue isn't just AD have good items though, it's also they have options

An adc that builds maw, the QQS upgrade and gage will hands down be able to survive and beat a 6 item Mage due to the shields, MR and cleanse, so even malziharz, the best duelist in the game would lose to them purely because of the MR and cleanse, even ignoring the shields

Fact is AD items are better right now, not just in power, but in OPTIONS

So give AP an alternative to zonas is not out of hand if it's given alternative weaknesses (less AP, only protects from physical, less armor) but has other parts where is isn't as weak (not a stasis, better early game build path for mana users)

B1naryB0tMar 31, 20161 votes

Damn, you keep missing the points of my comments: Zhonya's active exists, so a physical damage shield for X amount of time is by no means the most powerful thing possible.

alfavhunterMar 31, 20161 votes

Your missing the fact that zonas is a self CC at the same time, having a huge drawback to that invulnerability because it's a stasis effect

OyddAWqJ5rMar 31, 20161 votes

You seem to have missed the point again. He was pointing out that your idea of creating an item that is basically Zhonya's without the self-stun is a little redundant given Zhonya's exists.

alfavhunterMar 31, 20161 votes

One protects vs all damage, one only protects vs physical damage and isn't an active but a passive (and it would have a CD) but the item itself is more focused on mana than AP, for the champions that rush mana just to be able to lane because of how quickly they can go OOM

Zonas is truly a good idea on a few mages, on the rest however it's only taken because of one simple fact

IT IS THE ONLY OPTION VS AD FOR MAGES

If a Mage builds a purely defensive item it usually makes their damage fall off to the point they can no longer do what they need to do (get enough AP to combo someone for reasonable damage)

The reason for this is how easy AD has access to effective damage + MR items, yet if a Mage rushes zonas they can have huge mana issues due to what champ they are playing taking huge amounts of mana

Try playing Cass or anivia, and rushing a zonas, then use your spells 2-3 times and wonder, why am I OOM? It's because some mages are designed to have to rush mana / mana regen and with being forced out of lane for mana and how paper hard towers our backing once usually means a lost tower vs most ad mid laners

But wait there's more! If you go for mana instead the enemy mid AD can usually just kill you then take the tower

This is why I'm suggesting a mana focused version of zonas that

Has some advantages And some disadvantages Those being

gives mana / CDR and the survival effect is passive that isn't a self stun

gives less AP and armor and its effect only protects vs physical damage

The point you all seem to be missing is I'm not asking for a second zonas that we can stack, I'm asking for an option in stats in our armor AP item, with the items being exclusive so we can't have both at once

Asking for more option is not asking for the same item twice

After all, look at maw and gage, both give physical damage (in different ways) both give shields (with different condition to get them) and both shields do not protect vs the same damage (one only blocks magic damage the other blocks both), and lastly both of these items provide in combat damage stats when the shield is triggered

The items are VERY similar, yet different enough that they cater to purchasing for different reasons, that's what I'm asking for for zonas but as an AP armor option instead of an AD shield (and MR on one) option

Currently mages have ONE item for armor AP, asking for a bit more option is not redundant of an item as shown with the maw and gage example above

L Psy KongrooMar 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Mages have range. They survive assassins by staying away from them. Any AP/armor item that is released could be abused by supports and utility mages, who already have an easy time dealing with assassins (Imagine if Lulu could build Zhonya's AND another armor AP item, on top of her free burst of health and her shield).

As a Mage, your options are to either clear waves and harass from a distance, or go jungle. You have an OP jungle enchant and there's no laners to harass you. Playing around getting invaded is way easier than dealing with a Zed ult.

Even if you're someone like Xerath, who has the longest range of any mage in the game, assassins are still a threat to you. You can stay as far away as you want, but if Zed wants you dead, you're dead. W + ult + flash is enough to close the gap between both tier 1 mid lane towers, and most of the time you don't even need flash. Talon is the same, though he does it from stealth; all he needs to do is run in with his ult up from the fog of war and you're dead, because he gets a ms boost and his E's range is huge. Rengar is the same, and so is Shaco. And let's not forget about Akali and Ahri with 3 dashes, or Yasuo with INIFINITE dashes on a 0.1 second cooldown. Simply saying "just stay out of range" isn't going to work.

OyddAWqJ5rApr 3, 20161 votes

I understand what you're saying. I agree that they need another item.

I'm just saying a Zhonya's that doesn't self stun is fundamentally broken and redundant given Zhonya's already exists.

I'll break it down for you.

Having 2 item 3157 is a no no. Having duplicate items at all is a no no. Having an AP item 3053 is a no no. Having an AP item 3156 is a no no.

Get what I'm saying now? Make it unique jeez.

alfavhunterApr 4, 20161 votes

I'm not asking for an AP version of those items

What I'm asking for is this

An AP armor item that purely protects from AD damage, doesn't stasis the user or stop CC or skill shots exc from hitting them

It would give some AP, some mana, some CDR, and some armor with a physical defense passive that stops physical damage

Do any of the items you just referenced give mana or CDR?

The AP value would be small 30-60 (60 at most) the item would be focused more on mages that are

1-vs a physical mid laner

2-mana intensive enough to want to build mana on a first item

Example item stats 300 mana 10% CDR 40 AP 70 armor build path

+ example unique passive Upon reaching 30% HP the user is made immune to all physical damage for .5 seconds (just enough time to react vs someone with 1-2 spells). 120 second CD -condition: cannot be built with (exclusive item)

alternative item possibility +100% mana regen 20% CDR 40 AP 50 armor build path

+ example unique passive Upon reaching 30% HP the user is made immune to all physical damage for .5 seconds (just enough time to react vs someone with 1-2 spells). 120 second CD -condition: cannot be built with (exclusive item)

remember these are suggestions (and subject to balance changes) and even if both of these were to become an in game item, they would be exclusive with each other similar to how the hydras are

MasqureManMar 30, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lemon Graber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uBgaYjW6,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-03-30T02:20:06.455+0000)

A counter to AD? Don't you dare think about this. Zhonya can make you do something against AD'S every 90sec and riot HATES it. Imagine if there was something to actualy counter ADs in the same dumb way that does they would hate that even more.

I think you're missing the point.

TotalJerkMar 30, 201615 votes

No I'm pretty sure they get the point. They're just twisting it for an excuse to either rant or farm upvotes.

BUDDHISTINKMar 31, 20161 votes

People actually care about those?

TotalJerkMar 31, 20164 votes

Someone just posted a thread demanding Graves nerfs while they had been on the PBE for days and got upvoted hard.

LankPantsMar 30, 20162 votes

You don't have the firmest grasp on sarcasm do you?

DeloricVIMar 31, 20162 votes

Um, Zhonia's is a giant middle finger to everyone, not just AD's. Yeah it gives some armor and damage, but Hexdrinker gives Damage, Magic resist, and a shield that only blocks magic damage and doubles down on magic resist while it's active. Did we mention hexdrinker costs 2200 gold less than Zhonia's? Because it does.

Athenes LuluMar 30, 201623 votes

Anti-AD mage where?

RisenDarkKnightMar 30, 201622 votes

AP Rammus and AP Malphite kappa

YuGiHoMar 30, 20162 votes

rammus and malph are 2 of the most boring champs in the game. kass and galio are better examples of an anti x stat champion while also being mage-like

Voluug13Mar 30, 201617 votes

rammus and malph are 2 of the most boring champs in the game.

Opinion.

Emperor TimeMar 30, 20166 votes

I think Lulu can fill the position of anti-everything.

Athenes LuluMar 30, 20162 votes

Though anti-mage is difficult because most of them outrange and outdamage her.

Maybe we should bring up Janna as anti-everything as well, since you know... disengage doesn't go wrong.

TheorexMar 30, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uBgaYjW6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-03-30T02:46:28.476+0000)

Anti-AD mage where?

His name was Xerath before his rework, he had scaling armor with AP ratio. Fucking was amazing. Now its gone they gave him the Nunu/Lizz treatment for mana sustain.

OyddAWqJ5rMar 31, 20161 votes

Anti-AP AD champ where? As far as I know there's Assassins that are meant as anti-mages via invalidating them (killing them outright) but there are also mages based entirely around invalidating something an AD champ can do--they just usually excel at doing it to more than just AD's.

Lissandra Zilean come to mind.

La BarbotteMar 30, 201622 votes

how dare you imply AD's could have a weakness

Billy VoHagenMar 30, 201612 votes

My guess is because when you have something like Black Shield or Maw, it only blocks abilities, so it doesn't need to be a massive shield, it's 300-500, which will block a decent amount of magic damage from a Mage or ap assasin. But an AD shield later on, to be meaningful against ADC would need to be much larger, like 800 plus. That, however, is way too much for someone like Jarvan or Gnar to break through. So they just have all around shields.

I'm probably not explaining this well, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

TotalJerkMar 30, 20168 votes

Black shield is actually useful against AD champions if for different reasons than against AP. Thanks to the combined facts that it offers CC immunity until it breaks and the fact that physical and true damage can't break it, it ends up basically being an Olaf ult for them.

Billy VoHagenMar 30, 20164 votes

Right, but Black shield is much more useful against magic damage than physical damage.

Voluug13Mar 30, 20162 votes

Depends.

On Midgana, who gets more farm and thus more AP, yeah.

On Botgana, who gets less farm and thus less AP, its better against low magical damage champions because of less AP.

GAME lS A JOKEMar 30, 201611 votes

item 3155 is WAY too cost effective early game for a mere 1300g. Before anyone claims item 3191 is the mage counterpart, they should consider understanding that buying Seeker doesn't cut it anymore. Hexdrinker offers 3 stats: AD, MR, and an Auto-Proc Magic Shield (meaning you don't have to activate it, it will do it for you 100% guranteed) that NOT ONLY gets quantified by the MR on the item itself, BUT ALSO from Glyph MR Runes which usually every role takes because of how effective it is. You may argue "oh it's just 110 to 280" but realistically 110 x the MR factor makes it a lot higher than the number represents. Not to mention item 3191 doesn't have an Auto-Proc shield that gets quantified by both the Armor on the item AND from Runes/Masteries.

Maw is getting nerfed on PBE for that sole purpose.

Mr BorgMar 30, 20164 votes

Don't forget armguards needs to stack up too

SkiasMar 31, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=GAME lS A JOKE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uBgaYjW6,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-03-30T03:23:09.346+0000)

is WAY too cost effective early game for a mere 1300g. Before anyone claims is the mage counterpart, they should consider understanding that buying Seeker doesn't cut it anymore. Hexdrinker offers 3 stats: AD, MR, and an Auto-Proc Magic Shield (meaning you don't have to activate it, it will do it for you 100% guranteed) that NOT ONLY gets quantified by the MR on the item itself, BUT ALSO from Glyph MR Runes which usually every role takes because of how effective it is. You may argue "oh it's just 110 to 280" but realistically 110 x the MR factor makes it a lot higher than the number represents. Not to mention doesn't have an Auto-Proc shield that gets quantified by both the Armor on the item AND from Runes/Masteries.

Maw is getting nerfed on PBE for that sole purpose.

Seeker's armguard isn't even nearly as useful either. Hexdrinker's shield directly stops burst. Seeker's Armguard stops nothing.

A LiberalMar 30, 20167 votes

I think an interesting shrug would be the ad equivalent of Morgana's black shield, except instead of nullifying cc, it would nullify crits for the duration.

GesterrMar 30, 20164 votes

This sounds like an epic idea to build a new support around! +1

Edit: Perhaps something that's ghostly in form and can maniuplate the lifeforce of others (another Shadow Isles support?), like if you fight a ghost, hitting it or shooting it generally just passes through. Magical attacks usually are best in standard ghost lore.