Understanding Kai'Sa's Nerf

Elite4Runner··36 votes·15,533 views

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xQ2BiNoFAL8/W8TxoNYhoAI/AAAAAAABJFw/jdGjIa38YSQKoZlVd03Sl24tMVMPGF3uACLcBGAs/s640/kaisapassive2.jpg

Someone else recently shared this because they were confused by this, and I'll admit it is kind of confusing in the way that it is worded on Surrenderat20

I think I explained it in a way that made sense to them so they decided to delete their post, which is unfortunate because it would have been good for others to see if they were also confused.

Basically, her passive is no longer an execute in the sense that the total damage dealt is no longer equal to a percentage target's missing health. Instead, detonating 4 stacks of plasma now deals a flat amount of damage, regardless of the enemy's total health, that increases significantly based on the percentage of the target's missing health.

So it is weaker against tanks.

I think this is a good nerf.

50 Comments

BLIGHTBRINGER6 votes

Lol, yeah the wording kinda made me really confused in whether it was a buff or a nerf she was getting. After clarification I decided to delete it.

Elite4Runner6 votes

No worries, as I said, I think it would have been good for you to leave it.

I didn't intend for it to seem as though I was calling you out or anything.

BLIGHTBRINGER4 votes

It's all good.

Salron3 votes

There are better ADCs for killing tanks(with this change) There are better ADCs for killing squishies

What reason is there to pick her after this nerf over other ADCs?

Spank the Fox1 votes

Pretty much.

She can’t even touch tanks if those changes go through.

Also, you just homogenize her build to pure AD, besides one defensive item if she needs it, to deal with non-squishies.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uBXFElEw,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-10-15T22:37:43.244+0000)

She can’t even touch tanks if those changes go through.

She can touch them the same way the other 90% of the ADC roster does.

item 3153item 3124 item 3031

Spank the Fox1 votes

It’s almost as if I said that if you didn’t crop out my the other part of my post.

Limrick27 votes

A mixed damage adc with semi-global presence. Yeah why would anyone pick that? /s

Whip it good3 votes

Her ult is nowhere near semi-global lol

RenownedWheat427 votes

Regardless of whether it is, she's got a semi-global PRESENCE and that's more than just the ult. She can W from a million teemos away and can hop on you from afar even if she doesn't nab you with it, so long as her team has like any cc.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

It's what? 2000+ units later? That's pretty far. Iirc TF and Galio are only like 3000-4500 scaling.

LordGeovanni1 votes

yeah but those champs have massive delays and dont get a shield 80% of their max hp

Akali is SO HOT11 votes

I think this is actually a buff to her damage against squishies

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

It is yeah. She deals less damage to squishes and more to tanks early though. But an exponentially higher amount to squishis, and less so to tanks later.

At least that's how I understood it.

Elite4Runner1 votes

I am pretty sure this nerfs her damage to tanks all around.

It will take her longer for her passive to scale up and even when it reaches its maximum, they will still have more remaining health that she still needs to burn through, .. not to mention how tanks generally have more MR.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

% health damage is completely gone. This is a 100% of the time more damage to squishies and 100% of the time less damage to tanks.

chipndip14 votes

Flexibility and target access.

KFCeytron3 votes

In a nutshell, the % health burst damage goes from "(0.15 + 0.0375 * AP / 100) * (total_health - current_health)" to "(20 + 3 * level) * 3.125 * ((total_health - current_health) / total_health + 1) + 0.225 * AP * 4 * ((total_health - current_health) / total_health + 1)", making it like Riven's execute rather than Garen's. Note that those formulas don't account for the "maxes out at 30% health" sort of thing we usually see.

In a Python function:

def kai(level, AP, current_health, total_health):     return (0.15 + 0.0375 * AP / 100) * (total_health - current_health), (20 + 3 * level) * 3.125 * ((total_health - current_health) / total_health + 1) + 0.225 * AP * 4 * ((total_health - current_health) / total_health + 1)

In a JavaScript function (so you can just run it in your browser):

function kai(level, AP, current_health, total_health) {     return [(0.15 + 0.0375 * AP / 100) * (total_health - current_health), (20 + 3 * level) * 3.125 * ((total_health - current_health) / total_health + 1) + 0.225 * AP * 4 * ((total_health - current_health) / total_health + 1)] }

Elite4Runner2 votes

I'm not sure that is accurate, but I'm not fluent in Python or JavaScript

I want to try and put it in a different way. If we have Kai'Sa proc her passive on different targets while she has the exact same stats and while they have the exact same percentage of total health, she will deal the same amount of damage (pre-mitigation) regardless of their total health.

So not only will it take her longer to scale her damage output up on enemies with larger health totals, but it she will not deal as much damage in respect to the target's total health.

The live passive will take longer to build against champions with a larger total health, but it would build to a point where it would deal more damage than it would against a champion with a smaller total health.

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure that is accurate, but I'm not fluent in Python or JavaScript

I want to try and put it in a different way. If we have Kai'Sa proc her passive on different targets while she has the exact same stats and while they have the exact same percentage of total health, she will deal the same amount of damage (pre-mitigation) regardless of their total health.

So not only will it take her longer to scale her damage output up on enemies with larger health totals, but it she will not deal as much damage in respect to the target's total health.

The live passive will take longer to build against champions with a larger total health, but it would build to a point where it would deal more damage than it would against a champion with a smaller total health.

The equations are just arithmetic, following the standard order of operations. The functions are there for easy copy-pasting without having to type those few extra characters.

Elite4Runner3 votes

... okay, ... but I'm saying that I don't think your equation is accurate.

Mostly because her new passive doesn't have 15% in it anywhere.

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

... okay, ... but I'm saying that I don't think your equation is accurate.

Mostly because her new passive doesn't have 15% in it anywhere.

And I didn't include 15% in the new passive calculation. My reference was S at 20.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Okay, you're showing current and new separated by a comma. I was reading it as one equation.

My mistake.

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

Okay, you're showing current and new separated by a comma. I was reading it as one equation.

My mistake.

Sorry. I have the bad habit of one-lining things that really shouldn't be.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

For anyone that isn't a coder:

15% (+ 3.75% per 100 AP) of the target's missing health

to

[18 + (2.5 * level) + (22.5% AP)] (increased by 4% per 1% missing health)

BestPudgeNA3 votes

This is a fucking buff what the actually fuck riot. E Evolved Kai'sa is gonna E+R+AA+Q+AA and kill any non MR target in less then 1 second.

LordGeovanni2 votes

its a buff versus squishies and a nerf versus tanks i believe. Idk why riot cant give it a straight nerf though

BestPudgeNA2 votes

{quoted}

its a buff versus squishies and a nerf versus tanks i believe. Idk why riot cant give it a straight nerf though

Yeah that kinda the point as to why it's a buff. You don't pick Kai'sa to kill tanks you pick Kai'sa to dive past tanks and kill the backline in half a second. Cleaning the tanks up afterwards is easy. Plus it's not really a nerf vs supports tanks since is mostly vs large HP numbers rather then the high base mr of stuff like Leona/Braum, which will make her lane phase much stronger.

wildfox9T2 votes

idk why they can't straight nerf her,she can already oneshot squishies and she's insanely strong....but why not let's make her a ranged tanky assassin with DPS,if you have to make a champion frustrating be sure it is REALLY frustrating,this is how they work at riot games after all

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Idk why people are complaining. It cements her as an ADC to pick if you want to go back to front in fights with a dive buddy instead of doing whatever you want in fights since you kill everyone fast and can use ult for self peel as opposed to diving

AirKingNeo1 votes

Kai'sa damage is absurd against squshies, especially her Q.

But they're nerfing her sustained damage vs tanks? What!!!

Elite4Runner6 votes

Currently she does an absurd amount of damage to both.

AirKingNeo1 votes

but clearly more to squishies

tanks get adaptive helm

Elite4Runner1 votes

The thing is, .. she doesn't actually deal MORE damage to either. She deals the same amount of damage to two enemies that have the same % missing health. However, when you consider that tanks most likely have more health, it takes her longer to get them to a greater % of missing health because her bonus damage burns through a lower percentage of their overall health.

They don't necessarily need to have a significant amount of MR or damage reducing effects, they just need more health. Currently, having more health isn't helpful. Changing this was their goal.

Of course MR and damage reduction is still going to be useful, probably even better now, and that is good.

She works just like other ADCs when dealing with tanks. Prioritizing a mixture of magic and physical damage, critical strike, attack speed, as well us utilizing items like Blade of the Ruined King, will still make her effective against tanks, but she will be sacrificing some strength from her passive.

saltran2 votes

KaiSa theme is diving the backline to kill them, I like that they wont make her a second KogMaw and be just for killing tanks.

AirKingNeo1 votes

high massive HP damage but not a tank killer

Moonshade1 votes

I don't really like this change going through since there are few ADCs in the game with easy tank shred except for Vayne and KogMaw. The lesser tank busters are Jhin Varus and Kindred. Other than those the only decent option for tank busting is an ADC who has good kiting that can slot in item 3153 in their build like Ashe or Kalista. These last ones aren't as strong as Vayne or KogMaw. Having Kaisa as a tank buster isn't bad in premise, the main issue lies in how easy it is for her to stack up her passive on targets, yes it is a 5 stack passive vs Vayne's 3 but with item 3085 she can stack it on 3 targets at once, and her teammates can also stack it with their CC, leading to high CC comps having massive amounts of damage through Kaisa .

I'd like to see them change Kaisa passive so that it's closer to Braum before they do something like this. Basically I think it might be a good idea to make it so that ally immobilizing effects will only stack plasma on targets if Kaisa already put one on them, like how ally AAs only stack Braum passive after he applies the first stack. This would hurt her damage in fights since wombo engages like a Malphite + Orianna or a good engage by Alistar or Rakan won't prime the enemy team with 3-4 stacks of plasma for Kaisa to instantly pop. It would also hurt her mobility, another thing people complain about since she would need to use W to make picks with her R or use it defensively for the shield or on fleeing targets she's already had a chance to AA. That way she can still function as a high damage hybrid carry without being as oppressive due to ally's providing indirect damage buffs to her

Bârd1 votes

It's a similar mechanic to Veigar's ult now.

Neptunia xoxo1 votes

Still not enough to stop her from being in every single game and either pick or banned tbh. Something needs to be done about her scalings for AP and AD. I dislike how I can play her and even at level 3 my Q literally just my Q can take away 30% of someones health like how is that a thing? Mobility and high damage has always been an issue with champ design on this game yet nearly every time a champ like this is released they have huge problems.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Just had to lane against kai'sa top with fleetfoot work. One Q, two three AAs and ignite at lvl 2 and im dead. Like what?

Leto GT1 votes

Honestly it could be a big nerf. It would force her to dive squishies to be effective if builded ap. I would have rather make her evolve harder to get.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I dont see how this forces her to dive when she gets 60% refund i think on her W with the ap build.

Full Brain1 votes

Explanation for the plebs who don't maths. Pre nerf she had the power of Jax and Khazix combined and now she is just Nidalee with a supercharger attached.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Gcoc1 votes

[slayer-jinx-wink]

l MrD l1 votes

oh that makes sense but i really wish theyd just maker her upgrading mechanic only 1 time so shes an actual adapting champ rather than evolving and upgrading all 3 :S

LordGeovanni1 votes

am i missing something or does she now have less stacks to stack didnt she have 5 before. can riot nerf an adc or mage without giving them something back at the same time??? Its a decent start i hope to see more % health items and abilites nerfed Vayne Chogath item 3153 item 3151 and nerfs to % penetration too.item 3071 (hope it gets ad back even if it has to lose cdr) item 3135 (no way this pen is balanced unless this item only has 40 ap and no other penetration effects work. though id rather see this at a 20% Mr shread with stronger Magic resist defensive items not hybrid.)

Elite4Runner1 votes

She still has 4 stacks. The attack after she has 4 stacks on a target causes the detonation.

So if she only applies stacks through auto attacks, she has to attack the target 5 times.

And considering how much people were crying about how weak ADC was as a position for 90% of this season, .. I think this is fair.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Except adcs were never weak people were crying because for the past 2 years they ran up and killed anything they saw in 3 seconds they could still do that this season and still do that today but assassins happened to be popular because they were recently reworked and thus if adcs ran near an unwarded bush there was a possibility that they died just as much as there was a possibility that they killed the assassin. Adcs were crying that adcs were weaker than they used to be thus they must be weak but weaker than you used to be does not ~~equal ~~ Weak

Gamer Gallade1 votes

I've played a lot of Kaisa to know that this is a good nerf and doesnt really affect her lane.

Sure its gonna suck that you cant melt tanks as hard but hey, that's the reason why she was a problem in the first place.

So I can now wait and not worry her getting banned alot

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