I think Vayne should be redesigned, not nerfed

thescrubbybub·Oct 3, 2015·28 votes·1,337 views

I feel like they mashed two competing concepts into one champion, and it doesn't make for fun gameplay. I personally have loathed Vayne since Season 3, and am hoping that maybe this time they'll fix her long term problems. Anyways, it seems like she has two different aspects, and they don't seem to go together well. Her first champion identity is a hard to catch assassin ADC. Her tumble, condemn, and ult all play heavily into this identity, and it seems like a fascinating and fun base. Tumbling around and being slippery is a good base. What is not ok is to strap a massive tankbusting steroid onto that. Vayne has the potential to be an interesting assassin, but is held back by the stupidity of her silver bolts. She has the tools to select a target and kill it, then disengage. I really would like to hear a Rito employees viewpoint on her current state.

10 Comments

Captain AishiOct 3, 20156 votes

vayne's problem currently is that she has a conflicting dual-identity of burst/dps (assassin/marksman)

she excels at dealing sustained damage to take down tanky opponents, but she also excels at bursting squishies down (R+Qcrit can almost oneshot an enemy AD late game)

she also has no real exploitable weakness in her kit as tumble and condemn make her ridiculously safe against 90% of melee champions while night hunter+final hour allow her to close the gap on long range opponents to run them down mercilessly (seriously 2000 range on her MS steroid might be a little too long)

add to that the fact that outside condem (a targeted knockback) everything in her kit is steroids loaded into her autoattacks and you're left with a champion that has no meaningful counterplay either.

This is why even when vayne is statistically weak she is still infuriating to play against

thescrubbybubOct 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u8gg1UQG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-03T08:51:07.372+0000)

vayne's problem currently is that she has a conflicting dual-identity of burst/dps (assassin/marksman)

she excels at dealing sustained damage to take down tanky opponents, but she also excels at bursting squishies down (R+Qcrit can almost oneshot an enemy AD late game)

she also has no real exploitable weakness in her kit as tumble and condemn make her ridiculously safe against 90% of melee champions while night hunter+final hour allow her to close the gap on long range opponents to run them down mercilessly (seriously 2000 range on her MS steroid might be a little too long)

add to that the fact that outside condem (a targeted knockback) everything in her kit is steroids loaded into her autoattacks and you're left with a champion that has no meaningful counterplay either.

This is why even when vayne is statistically weak she is still infuriating to play against

Part of the problem Is just as you stated, everything in her kit interacts with AAs. Even her ability that doesn't specifically enhance her AAs, works with the rest of the kit. I'm just curious where people would start by reworking her. I would think reducing the AD and MS granted by her ult and reworking her Bolts into something more interactive. I'm not sure what. Maybe make condemn a skill shot to make her a little less reliable.

Captain AishiOct 5, 20152 votes

i personally think that 1- making condemn a skillshot would allow melee champions to close the gap on her if they can dodge condemn (i'd reduce the cast time on it if it became a skillshot though)

2- making W an activated ability like kog's W (maybe have it give her another bonus as well while it's active to compensate) would give her moments of weakness where your defensive stats actually matter when fighting her (on the compensation i'm thinking having it deal 1-2% every hit on top of the 8% for 3 stacks or something to amplify the 'silverbolts is active, kill her fast or stay really far away')

(having W be an activated ability would also make her have to use some mana during lane and face the possibility of being oom, which currently just never happens compared to every other ADC

i also think condemn is currently the highest base damage non-ultimate ability in the game at 370 am I correct? (kinda helps the 'bursting squishies' part too) Edit1: i'm not counting execute abilities because enemy missing HP is a form of scaling IMO Edit2: forgot max range Nid spears at 450 and soraka silence at 460 base damage :S

thescrubbybubOct 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u8gg1UQG,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-10-05T12:21:05.384+0000)

i personally think that 1- making condemn a skillshot would allow melee champions to close the gap on her if they can dodge condemn (i'd reduce the cast time on it if it became a skillshot though)

2- making W an activated ability like kog's W (maybe have it give her another bonus as well while it's active to compensate) would give her moments of weakness where your defensive stats actually matter when fighting her (on the compensation i'm thinking having it deal 1-2% every hit on top of the 8% for 3 stacks or something to amplify the 'silverbolts is active, kill her fast or stay really far away')

(having W be an activated ability would also make her have to use some mana during lane and face the possibility of being oom, which currently just never happens compared to every other ADC

i also think condemn is currently the highest base damage non-ultimate ability in the game at 370 am I correct? (kinda helps the 'bursting squishies' part too) Edit1: i'm not counting execute abilities because enemy missing HP is a form of scaling IMO Edit2: forgot max range Nid spears at 450 and soraka silence at 460 base damage :S

Making either W activated or making it a toggle like Jinx's rockets, wherein you have to pay a price for the bolts, but not requiring three hits are both good ways to make her power more situational. Totally changing the bolts out for something else almost seems like a better idea though. No champ needs three abilities that all buff AAs.