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Drawbacks would give more room for keystones imho

Disulfiram··47 votes·13,070 views

You know, make them more meaningful without powercreeping too much.

A simple example would be the old "double-edged sword" mastery (in case you don't remember: with it, you dealt but also took more damage)

A few more examples (just to show the idea, didn't think too hard on the proper numerical balance):

Immovable object • Pro: you are immune to displacement cc effects (except things like Anivia's wall, where you'd otherwise get stuck inside of something) • Con: you are also permanently Grounded for the duration of the game

Dashing rogue • Pro: your portrait never shows up in the minimap • Con: you are also always visible through the fog of war on the main window

Fortification • Pro: the tower in the lane you are currently in is tougher, does splash damage, fires more often, awards you the gold from the minions it kills, and always focuses enemy champions in range. • Con: only works on the outer turrets (so it's extremely powerful early but you essentially don't have a keystone in the mid/late game)

Favored enemy • Pro: you do more damage to and get more kill/assist gold from a single enemy champion, that you can mark; you have to mark one before the minions spawn, and if you don't then the closest visible enemy gets auto-marked instead (or the first one who appears if none are visible) • Con: you get no kill/assist gold from anyone else

Persistence of vision • Pro: you have a "ghost" following you similar to Ekko's ult's, that lasts longer than Ekko's and gives vision of the area (maybe true vision? You'd get to clear wards for free, but you'd also have to backtrack a lot in order to do so) • Con: you are much easier to follow safely for the enemy

Pyromancy • Pro: whenever you enter a bush, it bursts into flames; enemies who enter that bush are then revealed and take damage; after some time the bush is all burned up, and can't be burned again until it regrows • Con: bushes on fire or burned up don't hide allies - so there will be no surprise ganks or sitting hidden in bushes for you

Beauty and the beast • Pro: your champion becomes Ahri • Con: you become Teemo. In real-life.

39 Comments

MorganFreemanBot25 votes

These are incredibly awful examples.

A pretty huge problem with something like this is that, baring raw % and # tweaks (I.E. the old double-edged-sword), any mastery you made would be garbage by and large, except for in flagrant abuse cases.

As a perfect example, just look at Sion. Your first proposition would remove something like 50% of the ways various champions counter his Q.. Making him a nightmarish stun monster throughout the entire game, which many champs have absolutely no answer to. He also has 0 in built dashes, so giving up flash (just take ghost) in exchange for that would be no problem.

On the flip side, Lucian. Lucian would love to not be displaced, but he has an ability which literally does nothing but dash. Taking this mastery would effectively remove a portion of his kit, which is insane in a game where you only have 4 abilities.

Triple3T1 votes

Well, Sion would also lose his ult so the idea might be that not having an ult would counterbalance it?

MorganFreemanBot5 votes

{quoted}

Well, Sion would also lose his ult so the idea might be that not having an ult would counterbalance it?

Sion's ulti is not a dash or blink, it's a movement speed buff with additional effects. He can use it while grounded.

ZackTheWaffleMan1 votes

The end of his ult is a tiny leap that can go over terrain

MorganFreemanBot1 votes

{quoted}

The end of his ult is a tiny leap that can go over terrain

It's a self displacement, and it's not cancelled by grounding.

Triple3T2 votes

Well, Sion would also lose his ult so the idea might be that not having an ult would counterbalance it? Also I don't think Lucian would ever take this rune because of his dash.

DorkunedAuras15 votes

I love the idea of keystones with drawbacks. That said, I think every single one of your ideas are terrible. Great examples of what it could look like though.

Also, Beauty and the Beast is the single most terrifying thing I've ever seen.

Zed genius14 votes

Those specific examples you mentioned seem really gimmicky, but overall I agree with the idea that there should be runes with similar design to double edged sword. I always found that mastery a high risk-high reward thing that you would take if you are confident in your play and want to try and do as much damage as possible, I'm sad this didn't make it into the rune system

Ben Sharpio5 votes

Great ideas. I think they had success with this type of stuff, like with the debt rune. But there aren't any other runes that have these types of drawbacks. Upvoted nonetheless

Automated Riven4 votes

Immovable object was interesting (altho it would be super scary on something like darius) (mind you that not being allowed to take flash is a pretty huge drawback for simply ignoring knockbacks) and the fortification would probably be taken by toplaners and supports. (Mainly supports) but the rest of them would never be used outside of messing around with them.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u4sg2BXQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-15T18:35:09.982+0000)

Immovable object was interesting (altho it would be super scary on something like darius) (mind you that not being allowed to take flash is a pretty huge drawback for simply ignoring knockbacks) and the fortification would probably be taken by toplaners and supports. (Mainly supports) but the rest of them would never be used outside of messing around with them.

worth i think.

if you were immune against displacements, summoner 6 would already become like 100 times better.

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u4sg2BXQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-15T18:35:09.982+0000)

Immovable object was interesting (altho it would be super scary on something like darius) (mind you that not being allowed to take flash is a pretty huge drawback for simply ignoring knockbacks) and the fortification would probably be taken by toplaners and supports. (Mainly supports) but the rest of them would never be used outside of messing around with them.

Doesn't airborn count as displacement? If so then rip yasuo.

Automated Riven1 votes

Ya yasuo would become unplayable withstand rune.

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u4sg2BXQ,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-04-16T16:30:10.461+0000)

Ya yasuo would become unplayable withstand rune.

I'm ok with that.

FrostQueensPlane3 votes

You mean to tell me when meddler stole path of exiles keystones instead of stealing the entire system he took the lazier half of it and it turned out to be idiotic and unbalanced. Who would've guessed. Who would've guessed that pure stat boosts alone doesn't actually extenuate unique playstyles and that the entire system falls apart when the keystones don't have a drawback to punish you for generalist gameplay.

Course this is riot's live design team we're talking about, being half assed lazy incompetent and ineffective is like their team motto.

"I'm a writer, designing zoe was like writing I'm so kewl" - certainlyT

"ardent censer isn't overtuned" - meddler the janna player

"all of my reworks have been reworked, that's over a thousand hours of work my co workers have had to put in to fix my messes, and i got promoted lul" - repetoir

I also like how there are people criticizing TC's ideas, like he's being payed to do this like meddler the varus and jinx player is.

Tokogawaruf3 votes

{quoted}

Beauty and the beast • Pro: your champion becomes Ahri • Con: you become Teemo. In real-life.

We need this

Lord of Math2 votes

That first one Mordekaiser

Mordepool1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Math,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u4sg2BXQ,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-04-15T20:18:11.726+0000)

That first one Mordekaiser

Oh man. Yup . Sad now that it won't happen

Draehl2 votes

I want offtank Bard back so much. Would love a boring, generic, completely uninspired keystone like "gain +X Armor/MR, but your damage/healing effects are reduced by 30%." Just some way to get a little beef to stand up to the burst currently in the game.

Daddy Ants2 votes

Immovable object would kill any champion who has a dash/movement ability.

It'd also kill champions reliant on displacement effects like Yasuo, Alistar.

notice me Sin pi3 votes

{quoted}

It'd also kill champions reliant on displacement effects like Yasuo

i am completely fine with that [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Danjeng2 votes

I like persistence of vision. It gives you vision, but also makes you easier to track. Clear strength and weakness. True vision too strong though.

Maybe if the ghost is in the exact (down to the last pixel) location as you are, which would require you to stop moving for several seconds for the ghost to catch up, then you'd only get true vision.

They don't even need to make new art. Just reuse the old wolf smite bonus.

BLIGHTBRINGER2 votes

I would love some new Rune Keystones that are not damage based.

Blades in Exile1 votes

While i like the idea, some of these drawbacks are either to harsh or aren't significant at all. Favored Enemy for example: It can cause a champ to be incredibly behind due to no assist gold and "KSing" would be even more of a concern due to it, it would be a wonder for it to be used imo.

Disulfiram2 votes

I know... there's a good reason why I'm not a game designer; those were just random examples to give an idea of what I meant with "drawbacks".

Trashball1 votes

My main concern is that lots of newer or less-well-versed players will wind up taking what basically become trap runes on certain champions, actually making them worse off than with a simple, ineffective keystone.

Disulfiram1 votes

Nah mate, new players have dispensation to make bad choices.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Muzét1 votes

Some ideas are maybe too strong/harsh. But yeah it could be nice.

VoraciousX1 votes

Immovable object • Pro: you are immune to displacement cc effects (except things like Anivia's wall, where you'd otherwise get stuck inside of something) • Con: you are also permanently Grounded for the duration of the game

You realize that this would be unable to be used on probably 50% of League's cast because nearly all champions have some form of gapcloser now right? It'd also basically remove Yasuo's ult from the game, because anyone who faced him would be like "Let's all take this rune, he'll never be able to ult us!" And then everyone runs ghost instead of flash.

Favored enemy • Pro: you do more damage to and get more kill/assist gold from a single enemy champion, that you can mark; you have to mark one before the minions spawn, and if you don't then the closest visible enemy gets auto-marked instead (or the first one who appears if none are visible) • Con: you get no kill/assist gold from anyone else

This would be extremely terrible for anyone who took it, because it's likely that you're never gonna kill that single person every time, or even most of the time. It would basically force you to make choices you normally wouldn't(as a jungler, not finishing off an enemy champion while waiting for your ally who has this rune to come get the kill, for example), and would be absolute trash in solo queue(people would likely kill your target more than you would, forcing your possible gold advantage and extra damage to be wasted). For this rune to be even viable, it'd have to give you a pentakill worth of gold.

Persistence of vision • Pro: you have a "ghost" following you similar to Ekko's ult's, that lasts longer than Ekko's and gives vision of the area (maybe true vision? You'd get to clear wards for free, but you'd also have to backtrack a lot in order to do so) • Con: you are much easier to follow safely for the enemy

I can't see anyone taking this rune when they could just get sweeper.

Pyromancy • Pro: whenever you enter a bush, it bursts into flames; enemies who enter that bush are then revealed and take damage; after some time the bush is all burned up, and can't be burned again until it regrows • Con: bushes on fire or burned up don't hide allies - so there will be no surprise ganks or sitting hidden in bushes for you

This would require visual effects on the bushes, and I can't imagine having a bush burned down for one team, but totally fine for the other.

I don't think we need these kinds of drawbacks(or drawbacks in general) on every rune in the game. Double Edged Sword was only a good rune choice because the other choices weren't as good(and the drawback wasn't big at all. It was like 1.5 extra damage for every 100 you took, 2 or 3 if you were an ADC)

Lolman9781 votes

It's a good idea to have drawbacks like you said but Fortification has one problem

Fortification. I understand its early game blah blah blah, but if you have that thing as your first tower early game, your enemy can't even touch your tower since it will just attack them. And then you don't even need to be in lane and your tower will farm for you, so in a way its a farming version of Zz'Rots

BladeSteel2 votes

He specifically said "the tower in the LANE YOU ARE IN" You can't leave the lane and get the effect

Lolman9781 votes

Oh didn't notice. Sorry bout that.

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

That immovable object should already be part of Morde's passive. That would be pretty nice

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

That'd mean 2 degrees of synergy abuse... is qhat i was going to say before i realized you were memeing

Hibeki1 votes

Lmao the first one would make Alistar literally unplayable as ADC's would just tech that

statelesskiller1 votes

can i have that fortification one like right now as gangplank? because then i essentially became god, cant tower dive me, i get tons of gold. MONEY

Vyntrius1 votes

You really didn't think that fortification keystone through, did you? If you are playing a weak laner, all you would have to do is take that keystone and stand next to your tower for the entire laning phase. You can just be in xp range, let the tower do all the farming for you, all while the enemy laner can't touch you.

FrostlySpark1 votes

I think instead of being immune to cc and being grounded should be changed to having a large amount of tenacity but being permanently slowed. The slow should decay throughout the game.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

These runes are all terrible ideas, but I like your core idea - Have stronger runes with more drawbacks.

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