Gotta love getting bursted down by a tresh support with no damage item only ignite and armor...

taleofsonata·Nov 17, 2018·1 votes·1,354 views

Seriously when is ignite getting nerfed?

17 Comments

ZephyrDrakeNov 17, 20184 votes

"Bursted" I don't see how a Thresh that isn't building damage is bursting you down at all. If he used ignite then guess what? He doesn't have it for the next fight so take advantage of that.

DM For Rat FactsNov 17, 20183 votes

His passive gives AP as well. If thresh is ahead he can fight ADs.

The EcdysiastNov 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=DM For Rat Facts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tyh38XE1,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-17T19:32:59.355+0000)

His passive gives AP as well. If thresh is ahead he can fight ADs.

lol

No, it doesn't give that much and his scalings aren't very high.

DM For Rat FactsNov 17, 20182 votes

You're right, he was probably cheating

EleshakaiNov 17, 20183 votes

while ignite is probably a bit too strong, the problem here is that Thresh has too much damage. He doesn't need the bonus damage on his autoattacks from flay at all.

But... Thresh is a 'favourite' of Riot so he'll never see meaningful nerfs to give him an actual weakness.

The EcdysiastNov 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

while ignite is probably a bit too strong, the problem here is that Thresh has too much damage. He doesn't need the bonus damage on his autoattacks from flay at all.

But... Thresh is a 'favourite' of Riot so he'll never see meaningful nerfs to give him an actual weakness.

If they nerfed his damage, they'd need to give him an actual ultimate with hard CC.

EleshakaiNov 17, 20184 votes

No they wouldn't. He's supposed to be an engage/catch support. Braum doesn't need damage. Neither does Alistar.

He already has three distinct strengths: 1) He has a strong displacement ability. 2) He has the ability to rescue allies from bad spots. 3) He has a strong counterengage ability(that can also be used as an assist to engaging).

He doesn't need 'does a lot of damage to poke people' as well. He just doesn't. The reason they've had to nerf his ACTUAL iconic tools so much(nerfing the shield on his lantern, cooldown nerfs, etc.) is because they refuse to give him an actual weakness. His weakness SHOULD be 'if you poke me, I can't do much back unless I can hard engage', like most catchers/engage supports. But in stead they keep toning down the stuff that SHOULD Be strong on him because his damage is way too high in the lane phase.

The EcdysiastNov 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

No they wouldn't. He's supposed to be an engage/catch support. Braum doesn't need damage. Neither does Alistar.

He already has three distinct strengths: 1) He has a strong displacement ability. 2) He has the ability to rescue allies from bad spots. 3) He has a strong counterengage ability(that can also be used as an assist to engaging).

He doesn't need 'does a lot of damage to poke people' as well. He just doesn't. The reason they've had to nerf his ACTUAL iconic tools so much(nerfing the shield on his lantern, cooldown nerfs, etc.) is because they refuse to give him an actual weakness. His weakness SHOULD be 'if you poke me, I can't do much back unless I can hard engage', like most catchers/engage supports. But in stead they keep toning down the stuff that SHOULD Be strong on him because his damage is way too high in the lane phase.

Well... considering his performance doesn't indicate he's overpowered, he doesn't need it nerfed like you're claiming. So what you're asking for would only be a direct nerf to a champion who isn't overpowered.

EleshakaiNov 17, 20183 votes

And that's fine. I'm okay with them making a champion temporarily underpowered in pursuit of giving them a meaningful weakness. Because then you can buff their strengths in a way that keeps the weakness but gives them a more defined identity. You know, they could buff his lantern back up if removing his poke made him 'too weak', or remove some of the nerfs to his hook, etc.

The EcdysiastNov 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

And that's fine. I'm okay with them making a champion temporarily underpowered in pursuit of giving them a meaningful weakness. Because then you can buff their strengths in a way that keeps the weakness but gives them a more defined identity. You know, they could buff his lantern back up if removing his poke made him 'too weak', or remove some of the nerfs to his hook, etc.

While you do have a point, and it's the same one that I use for champs like Yasuo or Shaco who have extremely unique strengths, it just doesn't apply to Thresh's E damage.

The reason that argument works works for those two is that their unique strengths make them unreasonable to play against even when they're performing poorly overall. Yasuo's Q damage and timer were nerfed in large part because his W is an ability that a solo assassin/fighter shouldn't have-- it belongs on a support. Shaco is left with poor mid-late scaling because a blink on top of invisibility is something no one should have. But Thresh isn't performing poorly, and there's no aspect of his kit that needs buffs which would justify nerfing his E's damage. His E simply doesn't have the overpowered damage you're claiming it does. The difference is only that he actually can attack from a range for some poke, unlike other guardians. And that strength isn't making him beat them. So it's a non-issue.

EleshakaiNov 18, 20182 votes

It completely denies the only weakness his role has. The only way to ACTUALLY counter a catcher is to outpoke them. In lane, unless you're like Vel who can do it from 1500 range, you CAN'T outpoke him by enough to matter. That's the problem. If he was melee, i9t wouldn't be an issue. But a catcher who is also tanky AND offers protection should NOT have poke. It basically denies the entire point of the balancing act between supports. Poke beats engage who beats healer who beats poke. If Thresh offers poke, shield, engage, counterengage, and tankines.s…. he basically becomes 100% safe in lane. You can never beat him in lane, AND he's useful late. That's not to say he's like insanely op, he just has no weakness and no counter.

The EcdysiastNov 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It completely denies the only weakness his role has. The only way to ACTUALLY counter a catcher is to outpoke them. In lane, unless you're like Vel who can do it from 1500 range, you CAN'T outpoke him by enough to matter. That's the problem. If he was melee, i9t wouldn't be an issue. But a catcher who is also tanky AND offers protection should NOT have poke. It basically denies the entire point of the balancing act between supports. Poke beats engage who beats healer who beats poke. If Thresh offers poke, shield, engage, counterengage, and tankines.s…. he basically becomes 100% safe in lane. You can never beat him in lane, AND he's useful late. That's not to say he's like insanely op, he just has no weakness and no counter.

Right, and every single damage support has far more damage than Thresh. You aren't going to outpoke him as champions who don't have poke like enchanters or specific other guardians. But the thing, his damage is not any higher than other guardians. Bruam, Blitzcrank, Leona, and Alistar all have similar damage on their abilities. The only difference is he is ranged, so he can auto attack sometimes. Which also means he is much more difficult to use Relic shield on.

As you said, he does in fact have counters. You even began this comment with "you can counter a catcher by outpoking them." Blitzcrank has far more damage than Thresh, and likewise you counter him by poking. But if you're Soraka instead of Brand, that's on you.

However, I have to apologize. Granted, I shouldn't have to apologize since it was on you to provide the evidence that he was outperforming. But I will anyway. He actually IS. So my previous assertion that he isn't is actually false. That said, nerfing his E would be unreasonable. It's only as strong as it is when he focuses it. Perhaps they could give incentive to focus the W or Q instead. Maybe tie the range of his W to its rank, so he has to rank it up to get it far enough to matter.

EleshakaiNov 18, 20182 votes

Thresh does about as much damage pre-items as most mages. Brand may be the only exeption.

That's the problem. His base is way too high. It rivals a lot of poke mages in early levels. A Zyra's e+attack before items does about the same damage as a thresh e.

I'd be okay with them removing the enhanced auto-attack and giving him bonus damage if he chooses to commit on his q. The problem is that his damage is POKE. He shouldn't be able to compete with poke champs in terms of poke. So make his q have extra damage if he jumps in with it. Then he still has damage on an all-in, but no longer safe poke.

ZephyrDrakeNov 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Thresh does about as much damage pre-items as most mages. Brand may be the only exeption.

That's the problem. His base is way too high. It rivals a lot of poke mages in early levels. A Zyra's e+attack before items does about the same damage as a thresh e.

I'd be okay with them removing the enhanced auto-attack and giving him bonus damage if he chooses to commit on his q. The problem is that his damage is POKE. He shouldn't be able to compete with poke champs in terms of poke. So make his q have extra damage if he jumps in with it. Then he still has damage on an all-in, but no longer safe poke.

his range is low so he puts himself in quite a bit of danger if he wants to auto you. His auto attack range is smaller than the vast majority of ranged champions so the most he would be "poking" is melee supports who laugh at his "poke". His "poke" is a joke when you compare how safe the actual poke of every single other champion is. This is like saying that an ashe hitting you with an auto once is considered "poke" guess what? it isn't

EleshakaiNov 18, 20181 votes

His 'trade' damage, then, if you want to be too literal with the word choice. Either way. The fact is that he, as a champion, has no weakness. Which is why he will ALWAYS be relevant. And from a lane phase perspective, he doesn't really endanger himself to do it, because most champions aren't going to be able to hit him with their poke from max range unless he really sucks.(very few bot-lane poke champs have long-range targeted poke - it's a lot of skillshots, usually slow moving)

He needs to have a weakness, and the CLASS of champion he is(catcher/engage) typically are weak against poke. Thresh isn't, because if you poke him, he trades back equally, since he's more durable than the person poking and does ALMOST as much damage back. Every champ needs a weakness. Thresh has none right now. Even if he's not insanely OP right now(which I'd argue his win-rate is a bit too high, and he's too stable), he is a problem because he just does everything as well as most champs designed for it.

Comparing it to an ADC isn't relevant, since typically an ADC is making a sacrifice to trade back in the form of lost cs or positioning.

The EcdysiastNov 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Thresh does about as much damage pre-items as most mages. Brand may be the only exeption.

That's the problem. His base is way too high. It rivals a lot of poke mages in early levels. A Zyra's e+attack before items does about the same damage as a thresh e.

I'd be okay with them removing the enhanced auto-attack and giving him bonus damage if he chooses to commit on his q. The problem is that his damage is POKE. He shouldn't be able to compete with poke champs in terms of poke. So make his q have extra damage if he jumps in with it. Then he still has damage on an all-in, but no longer safe poke.

That's actually a really good suggestion, bonus damage if he pulls himself in.

EleshakaiNov 18, 20182 votes

I want it to be clear that I don't want Thresh out of the game. I don't hate him, he's not an inherently unhealthy champion... his kit just has TOO MUCH built into it. And the thing that makes the least sense for his class is the ability to trade effectively, so removing that in favour of making him more effective on all ins is a trade that would give him a more focused strength and weakness.