Some Math On Veteran's Scars PBE Changes

commit an hero·Nov 27, 2015·105 votes·21,590 views

So currently Veteran's Scars gives .8/1.6/2.4/3.2/4% extra to total health. But on the PBE it gives 9/18/27/36/45 health.

Now I was thinking this was to appeal more the carries as the flat health would be better instead of a measly 4% extra boost to health. However I was mistakenly wrong.

To break even with the new 45 flat health you would only need 1,125 health. That is not at all hard to get. Why are we nerfing this mastery so hard? It only benefits people in the early game but as soon as you get beyond 1,125 health it becomes worthless. The resolve tree was meant for tanks and what not. How in anyway is this helpful?

113 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 27, 201541 votes

I'm not in charge of these changes, but one thing to keep in mind here is that changes to the early game power of something have a far greater effect than changes at all other points in the game. It's why reducing someone's base HP by 40 or base AD by 3 can result in substantial performance hits to champions.

I imagine this change is intentionally aimed at keeping it powerful in the early game (45 base HP is significant power, as noted above) without it scaling well into the late game. I do believe most the rest of the Resolve tree tends to scale very well into the late game.

Phil FlyNov 27, 20152 votes

Yeah. Besides, I think most masteries are meant to be powerful during laning phase (like the one that gives hp on minion kill), because laning phase is the important setup of the later game. Having Veteran's scars affect who gets the kills early game, kinda like you said, determines performance later.

The OasisNov 27, 20151 votes

Not to mention that right now it's pretty much head-over-heels better than it's counterpart.

Duke AnaxNov 27, 20157 votes

That depends a lot on the Champ. An increase to all healing done to you over a few HP? no choice really in my eyes.

My Waifu VanillaNov 27, 20152 votes

debatable......I would say only 10% of champs tops have an inherent heal that would benefit from the mastery and that number gets even smaller when we consider how much 8% of a heal is compared to the max health (Bard W heals like for close to nothing compared to what extra health would give imo).

The Yetii RiderNov 27, 201519 votes

{quoted}

I'm not in charge of these changes, but one thing to keep in mind here is that changes to the early game power of something have a far greater effect than changes at all other points in the game. It's why reducing someone's base HP by 40 or base AD by 3 can result in substantial performance hits to champions.

I imagine this change is intentionally aimed at keeping it powerful in the early game (45 base HP is significant power, as noted above) without it scaling well into the late game. I do believe most the rest of the Resolve tree tends to scale very well into the late game.

Yeah, but the change to Cinderhulk was meant to cement a tank's power in the mid game. Strength of Ages mirrors this, as well as Hunter's Potion and Tracker's Knife. Tanky champions don't HAVE early game power this season, giving it to us is only going to make our mid game worse.

(By the way, Nunu's health per level was decreased when Cinderhulk was too strong because of the scaling he got with Cinderhulk + Consume, then you nerfed the scaling on Cinderhulk and left his base health weaker.)

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 27, 201518 votes

Tanky champions don't HAVE early game power this season, giving it to us is only going to make our mid game worse.

Veteran's Scars' placement in the Resolve tree does make it accessible to more than just tank-types that are going down to Resolve keystones.

The Yetii RiderNov 27, 201511 votes

{quoted}

Veteran's Scars' placement in the Resolve tree does make it accessible to more than just tank-types that are going down to Resolve keystones.

So you nerf the effectiveness of our tree for us, in order to make it less painful for others to dip into? Why is that fair?

BattalionNov 27, 20156 votes

Perhaps just moving the Veteran's scars down a tier would be more beneficial? That way if you want to get into that 4% extra hp you need to make some tough calls on the rest of your tree, without reducing the effectiveness of the tanks that spec solely into the tree.

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 27, 201521 votes

If we wanted trees to belong to only one class/archetype of champion, they would be 30 points deep instead of 18 so that you had to invest all your points in that tree in order to get to the keystones.

LeeDarkNov 28, 201520 votes

That fails to answer the actual question. Why nerf tanks to buff everyone else? If there are some champions who could use base health, why not buff them? Why force them into the Resolve tree?

Puppet33rNov 28, 20154 votes

But they do belong to classes/archetypes with their current design. If you really wanted them to be neutral in all respects you would've made these trees with pure utility masteries like ms buffs, sustains, gold generation and so on... But that's not the case. There are damage increases and a bunch of heavy combat regen and hp. And tank stats are kind of outnumbered and only exist within resolve tree. Right now there's 15 masteries that give some form of dmg increase, 17 that give utility(long term sustain, mana regen, cdr and so on) and just puny 8 masteries that give hp, heavy combat hp regen and resists, Doesn't seem really fair to tanks especially since regen is more of an offtank thing and leaves other tanks with only 1 viable build path within resolve tree...and you are going to nerf it's late game effectiveness in the next patch.

Critmaster GarenNov 28, 20155 votes

{quoted}

If we wanted trees to belong to only one class/archetype of champion, they would be 30 points deep instead of 18 so that you had to invest all your points in that tree in order to get to the keystones.

can we please get adaptive armor back? the mastery was really great in nieche cases of teams that heavily lean to a particular damage type, or against champions who tend to deal a lot of mixed damage.

also, strength of the ages is a little underwhelming compared to the other two.

if you take health sustain into account, 8% damage reduction for 2 people amounts to a lot more than 300 hp.

grasp of the undying almost grants the same health bonus over the course of a fight, while adding a damage component.

the 20 hp heal from cannon minions after the 300 health are stacked becomes almost entirely irrelevant lategame, as youre not busy farming anymore. if veteran scars scaling was nerfed to make it a more attractive mastery thats impactful early game for carries and assassins, then the health could be put back into strength of the ages for those heavy fighters and tanks that invest more into the tree.

either way i also have another proposal. please reduce the health per cannon minion to 15 and make regular minions give 1 hp stacks. the problem is, that the mastery can be extremely unreliable when youre behind or getting zoned. missing out on that cannon minion really hurts if theyre the only source for stacks (besides jungle camps) and spawn rarely early on.

ExecutorDillNov 30, 20152 votes

Yet the only class I see actually willing to go 12 in Resovle tree after the flat hp change is marksmen. Cunning and Ferocity offer Mages and Assasins all the damage and utility they could get out of masteries and a minor 46hp at lvl 1 won't change that.

Champions that I already take resolve points on:

Fighters especially the sustain ones (Though I take Runic armor over Veteran Scars and switch to the minor flat hp won't change that)

Juggs and Tank with not a lot of hp sustain (These champs I go Veteran Scars on)

Mages who have a lot of hp in their build or I build somewhat tanky (Veteran Scars but Runic armor also works good on swain and vlad)

Most junglers, especially ones who take a beating on the first clears such as

As you can see they are a fair amount of champions that will benefit more from the current Resolve Tree as a Secondary choice over Cunning. The only champs who will prefer the immediate flat hp at lvl one are champions that generally don't have much appealing hp items in their build paths which are Assassins and Marksmen. But who cares? Those are just 2 classes and frankly only the melee assassins will show intersest in Resolve over cunning. Physical Damage Dealers still don't have their long awaited AD/Armor item I can probably go another 2-3 paragraphs explaining why the % is better than the noob trap of flat hp you have on pbe but if what I say hasn't changed your mind then another 3 paragraphs definitely won't/

It's not fair it's the same thing as previous masteries. The offensive tree always looks like this %%%%%%%% allowing damage dealers to scale superbly into the late game whereas in the tank tree you get stuff like -2 less damage from champs, Flat hp, Flat resistances based on how many targets are in vicinity and so on.

ExecutorDillNov 30, 20152 votes

This game is revolved around damage for everything and when that damage is paired with mobilitiy, untargetability, invisibility, range and other utility that helps them to avoid taking damage (which lead to those "wtf" moments when we get bursted from a fizz or leblanc) resolve tree will never favour those champs especially if it's only 12 points into it. The resolve tree is meant for champs that favour the bit of durability over the utility they get out of Cunning and/or damage from Ferocity since they know they can't effectively avoid damage, these champs are tanks, fighters, a handful of immobile mages and most junglers.

Sneak DogNov 27, 20154 votes

Could tanks then also get a better secondary option?

If you want damage and damage, you can go resolve and cunning and you'll still get damage from your dip. If you want tankiness, you go resolve and then have 12 points dangling. Usually I go into cunning for some utility, but it still feels bad.

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 27, 201516 votes

That seems like a good solution if there is currently nothing attractive in the other trees.

commit an heroNov 28, 20155 votes

{quoted}

That seems like a good solution if there is currently nothing attractive in the other trees.

Thanks for replying to this thread. You did make a great point that it isn't mean for only tank champions. 45HP is pretty big early but falls off later in the game.

Can we talk about Strength of the Ages. I don't see it being picked up very often or in rare cases. Such as Tahm Kench as he scales very well off of health. If this is meant to be the tank Mastery then why does it feel so awkward compared to every other Keystone.

Take for example Bond of Stone gives a 2% Damage reduction but increases to 8% when near an ally. (Being changed to 3%/6% next patch from the looks of it) or Grasp of the Undying which makes you steal 3% of your HP from an enemy champion. These Keystone will always have a benefit at some point in the game. They'll always give you something.

However. if you or an Ally missed the cannon then you are essentially delaying yourself. This Keystone feels like you are on the clock. If you don't have a great game or just certain things don't align then you are behind. It should take roughly 23 minutes if you get every cannon. Which is fairly balanced for the amount of HP you are being awarded. Not sure how long it would take as a Jungler as I haven't done the math on it.

tl'dr Strength of Ages mechanics feels gimmicky at best. It's a stacking mechanic that'll give you a mediocre benefit if behind.

LeeDarkNov 28, 20154 votes

As a jungler, it is four full clears of the jungle, if you include the crab. More likely, you'll get 6 or 8 in your first clear, then 4 or 5 in the next clear, and back to 6 or 8 afterward. This would make it 6 full clears, each delayed by ganking, which is the real problem.

Strength of Ages encourages tanks to power-farm the jungle like they would with Devourer. But tanky junglers, like Sej, Rek'sai, etc., tend to excel at early ganking. The Keystone and playstyle are diametrically opposed to one another, while Bond of Stone synergizes with a tanky jungler's playstyle.

LankPantsNov 28, 20152 votes

In my experience the best keystone for most Sej/Amumu style tanks is the one you didn't mention.

Grasp of the Undying is super strong on more offensive tanks since it procs off of your HP. When you have a lot of HP the mastery damage and heal get to be significant and since you don't die quickly it's not unreasonable to expect to proc it multiple times, especially since it gives you sustain to help with this.

Strength of Ages encourages tanks to power-farm the jungle like they would with Devourer. But tanky junglers, like Sej, Rek'sai, etc., tend to excel at early ganking.

Sej doesn't and Rek'sai isn't a tank.

Rek'sai's a fighter jungler at her core. She excels at early game pressure. This means the only tier 3 defence mastery you should ever consider on her is GotU. You honestly should probably stick to Fervor of Battle on her though, it's pretty much just the best keystone for anyone who can make good use of it.

Sej on the other hand has sub-par ganks pre 6. They're not Shyvana tier or anything but she certainly doesn't "excel at early ganking". She gets outperformed in early ganks by any traditional early pressure jungler, (hence the name) she picks up post 6 but she's still far worse at ganking than people like Lee and Elise.

Sej actually does play a farm game early. The only time you can really gank as Sej is when someone offers you the kill on a silver platter. You also do need to farm as Sej since she scales hard into the late game, her powercurve is very similar to a devourer jungler.

I'd say overall Strength of Ages synergieses fairly well with Sej's playstyle, definitely better than Bond of Stone. The reason why Bond of stone is better is because 300 HP just isn't that good compared to other keystone masteries.

CrazedPorcupineNov 28, 20153 votes

Could we look at Zilean in terms of which masteries are good on him?

Thunderlord's isn't that great because of the large window between Zilean's Damage points,

Stormraider isn't good because Zilean's burst is so delayed,

Deathfire Touch isn't good because Zil's damage is AoE, and so get's penalized

Windspeaker's blessing isn't good because His ult is the only healing he has on his kit.

Overall, none of the Keystone choices are good on Zilean, and it's sub optimal to go 15/15/0 on him.

ExecutorDillNov 28, 20153 votes

So why hit veteran scars when unyielding is at the top of the tree? It's not like tanks get good early game damage from ferocity tree so why make the resolve tree convenient for carries and hit tanks?

VeryGreenNov 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm not in charge of these changes, but one thing to keep in mind here is that changes to the early game power of something have a far greater effect than changes at all other points in the game. It's why reducing someone's base HP by 40 or base AD by 3 can result in substantial performance hits to champions.

I imagine this change is intentionally aimed at keeping it powerful in the early game (45 base HP is significant power, as noted above) without it scaling well into the late game. I do believe most the rest of the Resolve tree tends to scale very well into the late game.

Another useless mastery in the tree, along with insight and other stuff. Might as well never play tanks again to be honest haha

CrettNov 27, 201516 votes

Seriously though. SERIously they just blasted unyielding and bond of stone, too if tanks are too strong, they need to target their damage, not the thing that makes them tanks!

Big LincolnNov 27, 20151 votes

what about tanks who are supposed to be doing damage?

It Hertz When IPNov 27, 20153 votes

They're called bruisers, and we don't like to talk about them. :P

Critmaster GarenNov 27, 201516 votes

imo put the extra health into strength of the ages by making the keystone grant 10% max health at full stacks. in rare edge cases, this would be up to 500 bonus health from 300.

this would make up for the 80 to 160 health loss on veteran scars for tanky champs.

the keystone currently cant compare to the other 2. not only would that be a good buff to the mastery itself, but compensation for the loss of health on veteran scars.

and effectively this would mean a nerf to marksmen who get less health out of going into resolve for the extra health, but not for tanky champions who go all out into the tree. so win/win.

The Yetii RiderNov 27, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tv6EluK6,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-11-27T19:22:48.502+0000)

imo put the extra health into strength of the ages by making the keystone grant 10% max health at full stacks. in rare edge cases, this would be up to 500 bonus health from 300.

this would make up for the 80 to 160 health loss on veteran scars for tanky champs.

the keystone currently cant compare to the other 2. not only would that be a good buff to the mastery itself, but compensation for the loss of health on veteran scars.

and effectively this would mean a nerf to marksmen who get less health out of going into resolve for the extra health, but not for tanky champions who go all out into the tree. so win/win.

I'm not sure why you think Strength of Ages can't compete with Bond of Stone (which only gives you 2% DR now) and Grasp of the Undying (which is only good if your champion's auto attack frames aren't awful).

Strength of Ages gives you 70 max health on your first clear if you take a Scuttle. With Cinderhulk, Strength of Ages gives you a total of 345 bonus health, which is great. But more importantly, by having Strength of Ages and rushing Cinderhulk, you are able to rush armor immediately afterwards and not lose out on tankiness. Grabbing a Thornmail or Frozen Heart as your second item isn't nearly as punishing with the free health from Strength of Ages, making your mid game sooooo much better.

RiotAD YuumiNov 28, 20158 votes

Yo, I've been working on the changes to masteries with Squad5 and Stashu so thought I'd pop in and give some context.

There are 2 goals with the Veteran's scars changes this patch:

lower the degree to which tanks are hyperscaling with items.
As Repertoir mentioned, make the tier 2 resolve tree more attractive to other classes who don't buy tons of health.

--- If you look at a list of the top junglers right now they're all champs who build tanky: Mundo, Skarner, Rammus, Nunu, Volibear, Amumu. While some of this rise in power for individual champs is to be expected (Rammus wrecks ADC's and Trundle is strong whenever super tanks are strong), when a class as whole is standing out above their peers it's probably a good idea to look at the underlying power from systems that support that class. In this case we feel the Resolve tree is offering too much multiplicative scaling to tanks in too many different places.

We feel that Veteran's scars is a great candidate for conversion to flat as it reduces the crazy item scaling tanks are getting right now, opens up the tree to more characters, and creates an easier to grok choice vs. the %healing and shield mastery.

---Final note, some of you may be asking: "Why not just nerf Mundo? He's the real problem!" If it was just Mundo that's exactly what we'd do, but right now we're seeing immense strength across the whole class of characters so feel it's better to nerf a few masteries than hit 6 champs. If this leaves some of the already weaker tanks in a bind we're likely to buff them up. We had a similar thought process when we hotfixed Warlord's Bloodlust. You can hit Yasuo, Trynd, and other early crit users, or you can look at the thing that they all have in common: crazy synergy with Warlord's.

IpolsNov 28, 20155 votes

Hey I understand the reasoning you explained and I'm not totally against it, I also don't play tanks so I hope I'm not biased. (I have to admit that I prefer the tank meta tho.) but Tanks are scaling better than usually, they aren't scaling a lot. The mage class and the Adc class both scale a lot better IF the enemy team isn't full AD. and it's been this way for a long time.

I'd just like to know if you believe it's true that Mages and ADC scale better than tanks. We are just so used to see tanks melting like butter lategame (Vs non full-ad comps) that when it stops happening it looks like they are hyperscaling.

Also opinions from non-red are welcome, too.

shadowsaotomeNov 28, 20152 votes

Just for clarification, what exactly are you using as a metric to measure scaling? Obviously a tank's AP/AtkSpd/AD aren't going to scale as well as a marksmen's and/or a mage's, and their HP/Armor/MR isn't going to scale as well as a tank's. Does a tank's defensive scaling match up to the AD/AP scaling of mages and marksmen? Are we talking strictly stats, or do individual kits also come into play insofar as scaling?

EnderForHegemonNov 29, 20152 votes

From a hypertank player who loves to scale into the lategame like nothing else, I don't understand this at all. Not only this patch, but every patch since the juggernaut items, tank scaling options have been limited further and further. From cinderhulk to thornmail to randuins to these masteries, to garen swapping to flat resistances W to the slew of excellent midgame juggernaut items with relatively much poorer lategame tank scaling, it feels like tanks just aren't welcome in the lategame, which is a blow to how I enjoy league of legends.

At the same time AD champions have been presented a handful of dedicated tankslaughtering items in the preseason, and more and more champs in this game do % max health or % true damage which leaves items feeling less and less satisfying in the first place.

I don't understand why a low-damage high mobility and tenacity champion like old Garen can't exist in League's lategame.

Clown ApocalypseNov 29, 20152 votes

Except the only reason people are breaking out all of these tanks is because you guys buffed the hell out of adc's. Of course Rammus is getting picked a lot and strong right now. He counters broken autoattack champs. Aka adc's. Aka yasuo. aka yi. aka tryndamere. 45 health is worthless and makes that mastery not even worth putting a single point in for a tank. You make two new items to shred tanks and that's not enough? You have to shred the tanks even further before the game even begins and items are built? People should be strong when they specifically itemize against what you are building. You have champs and items specifically designed to deal with people who stack hp. Instead of nerfing tanks until they barely feel like a tank.....how bout you start making videos about counterplay to the things people claim are so op. Show them what kind of champs and builds are good against the things they complain about. You guys really make it hard for a person to keep up with all the nuances of the game with this constant buff and nerf cycle. A person may learn how to counter certain champs, then you come along and nerf the hell out of the most common way of countering that class of characters.

You have like 120 champs. You guys really need to start letting some things remain consistent for a while. I didn't play for a month once and had to learn the game all over when I came back because in just that time you guys made new items, changed the jungle, buffed people, nerfed people, rebuffed people etc. Then when I thought I had learned the changes....you changed the jungle again, buffed and nerfed people, rinse and repeat. I'm all for you guys fine tuning your game but it seems more like a constant cycle of breaking things and putting them back together all season than actual tweeks to gameplay. TBH I don't know how you guys didn't see that warlords was going to be broken. As soon as someone leaked the screenshots off of PBE people knew it was going to be a problem, for the exact characters it was a problem for. In fact you had to nerf shiv just to indirectly nerf yasuo even with the warlords changes. I think you are going to find out that most people would rather have the % healing than 45 hp which is pretty much a single level one auto. Late game it's negligible. The % healing will scale with lifesteal regen everything. You are going to turn veterans scars into noob bait. Climbing ranked is becoming who can abuse what you guys broke the most before you nerf it. Sorry for the rant. Just my two cents.

DoctorPelusaDec 2, 20152 votes

From my point of view you are just shifting this mastery, from oriented for tanks, to oriented for ADCs. ** Why not go for a mixed solution, like 30 + 2% of HP. Or made it scale with level?**

Raven RedeemedNov 27, 20156 votes

Yeah these changes make me sad. Flat hp is much less enticing than %hp. I wiss they'd just nerf the number, or change to % bonus hp.

jdogg5543Nov 28, 20152 votes

Runic shield has always destroyed veteran scars nerf or pre nerf. Darius renekton irelia, garen ryze, maokai, riven, hecarim, almost every champ in top lane has a heal or shield. You would be dumb to get veterans scars at any point in the game. To get it on adc is even more retarded because an 18% increase to shields and heals AND 15% MR and armor is a hugeeeee buff compared to 4% health or 45 hp. Under no circumstances would you ever get veterans scars for early mod or late game. It loses in all stages. It needed to be buffed if anything NOT nerfed. Who does the balance for this game these days. Runic mastery on adc with windseekers keystone is the reason why sona lulu and soraka are OP right now.

DreadlocksNov 27, 20155 votes

omg pls tell me this isn't true.. i love this mastery while it seems like every one else it taking Runic Armor

Phuc Dat BichNov 27, 20154 votes

Riot destroying tank masteries because they refuse to see the real problem

DrMundo <--This piece of shit antifun toxic champion one more time he is strong and the game is disgusting to play

So riot rather GUTTING as he need mundo they destroy masteries...

commit an heroNov 27, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vârg Vikernes,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tv6EluK6,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-11-27T19:00:36.191+0000)

Riot destroying tank masteries because they refuse to see the real problem

<--This piece of shit antifun toxic champion one more time he is strong and the game is disgusting to play

So riot rather GUTTING as he need mundo they destroy masteries...

There is actually some nerfs on the PBE. His problem was being super tanky while dealing shit tons of damage.

Phuc Dat BichNov 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

There is actually some nerfs on the PBE. His problem was being super tanky while dealing shit tons of damage.

his E have the same ratio but now at rank 5 rather than the rank 1...mean nothing if you ask me

His Q damage need to reduced and his ulti duration need to reduced

My Waifu VanillaNov 27, 20151 votes

Reducing the duration, while keeping the amount healed (which they WOULD do) would only make matters worse and give you less time to apply grievous wounds. If ADCs and Top Laners got their head out of their ass and bought an 800 gold item he wouldn't be doing so well (seriously I bought an Executioner's Calling very early on Trundle and I destroyed him in lane and for almost the entire game).

AnidanNov 28, 20152 votes

You were also playing Trundle, an infamous anti-tank...

Executioner's Calling is strong against him, but that's not the only answer necessary. I've seen games where he gets that item bought against him and he continues to wreck house anyway.

ErockandrollNov 27, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vârg Vikernes,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tv6EluK6,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-11-27T19:00:36.191+0000)

Riot destroying tank masteries because they refuse to see the real problem

<--This piece of shit antifun toxic champion one more time he is strong and the game is disgusting to play

So riot rather GUTTING as he need mundo they destroy masteries...

For the thousandth time. Mundo is a Juggernaut. No CC, No Engage, just decent AoE damage, with tankyness. (you know, like Garen.)

DurzakaNov 27, 20153 votes

One thing to remember is that some Masteries are purely about early game power. Which is how they are changing this one.

45 hp is much better than 4% hp when youre first coming to lane, and when youre first clearing the jungle. So that is something important to keep in mind.

SteelflameNov 27, 20159 votes

On the jungle aspect, by far I would prefer the healing mastery over a flat 45 hp. 8% healing means I just have to heal JUST 562 hp to match a max rank veteran scars flat out at level 1. If I'm running the 3 hp pot route, I already start with 450 covered in healing. This means I'd just have to heal 112 hp from my smite on red/red's gradual healing effect, lifesteal from any source including the other masteries I most likely am taking, or either of the starting jungle items, or just from ambient hp regen. There is seriously no reason to take veteran's scars unless you have 0 healing anywhere in your kit and don't plan on buying more than 3 pots at a time, or getting a Corrupting/Hunter's Potion.

EDIT: We could make Vetran's Scars 100 flat hp at max rank, and it still would be weaker after a few minutes in lane. Flat hp from a mastery is only level 1-5 strength, and falls off hard, fast. Meanwhile, %Healing that applies to everything would still outscale it after about 1,100 hp healed over X time. A raka would be able to match the value of max vet scars by 3 heals later in the game, Janna with just a E+Ult, and lets not get started on Lifesteal/lane sustain. It would make it a less trap mastery than the current 45 one, but at least it would be bringing decent early game power in trade for losing out on late game sustain amplification. Strength of Ages at the very least provides a heal when cannon minions go down after it maxes out, giving a bit of sustain to go with the flat 300 hp (which is weak for a keystone that takes a long time to scale into), but the new vet scars are just a massive noob trap on just about anyone.

SOLDIER1stClassNov 28, 20153 votes

25 more HP at most pre level 6 is not as good as a mastery which can scale with items. It is a huge nerf to tanks as they would lose 160 HP if they have 4000 HP.

If you will die because you didn't have 25 more health in the early game, that is your fault.

Sustain in lane (health pots/dorans) and greater late game power will make Runic Armor overshadow Veteran's Scars if that change goes through.

Kuroi86Nov 28, 20152 votes

It only benefits people in the early game but as soon as you get beyond 1,125 health it becomes worthless.

I think you answered your own question. Many games currently don't last much past the 20 minute mark. Making it flat health right now makes sense as there's not a huge amount of time to scale up. Should the games start lasting into the 30 minute mark again, then I think it would be a good idea to revisit the idea of % health again.

ZephyrDrakeNov 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think you answered your own question. Many games currently don't last much past the 20 minute mark. Making it flat health right now makes sense as there's not a huge amount of time to scale up. Should the games start lasting into the 30 minute mark again, then I think it would be a good idea to revisit the idea of % health again.

sorry to say this but if you need 30 mins to reach 1125 HP then you are dong something horribly wrong

Kuroi86Nov 28, 20153 votes

That wasn't my point. With the game lasing a much shorter length of time, a flat amount of health is going to be useful for longer than % health. If the meta shifts to a longer length game where % health would be more effective for a longer duration, then I agree that Riot would be wise to switch back to % health.

ZephyrDrakeNov 28, 20153 votes

{quoted}

That wasn't my point. With the game lasing a much shorter length of time, a flat amount of health is going to be useful for longer than % health. If the meta shifts to a longer length game where % health would be more effective for a longer duration, then I agree that Riot would be wise to switch back to % health.

45 extra health is not going to be more useful after lvl 2... wow that sure is an useful amount of health that gets overshadowed as soon as you hit lvl 3 and when you get 1125 HP (which is not hard nor takes a meaningful amount of time to get) it just becomes completely worthless