thoughts about AP and AD Assassin items

Anonagon··4 votes·545 views

I've noticed recently that AP Assassin itemization is really lacking, especially in comparison to the revised AD Assassin itemization on the PBE. AP Assassins suffer from not having real dedicated itemization, basically having to resort to using mage items suboptimally. While some champions like Leblanc and Katarina have done fine in this environment, others like Ekko, Fizz, and Akali haven't, and I believe the fact that they end up using subpar items is a big contributor to these champions' rather feast-or-famine nature.

Lets evaluate the current slate of AP Assassin items, shall we? item 3285 item 3100 item 3146 item 3152 item 3157 item 3001 item 1402 While there are certainly other items AP Assassins can and do buy, these are the items that really contribute to AP Assassin patterns. Most of these provide an extra source of burst damage. Zhonyas gives AP Assassins a slight safety net while all their spells are on cooldown, and Abyssal provides a damage amplification when near your targets.

However, of these items, only two (item 3100 item 3146 ) really cater to AP Assassins more than mages, and really its more about inconvenience for the Mage than it is about empowering the assassin playstyle. These two items just can't be used by traditional mages effectively because they don't often weave autoattacks into their combos and they don't often have minor AD scalings the way many AP Assassins do.

All the other items are roughly as useful on your average mage as they are for assassins, because they are just kind of generally useful items. Zhonyas is a useful defensive tool for any caster. Abyssal's aura range isn't small enough for it to be noticeably more effective for lower range characters like assassins. Ludens can be proc'd from a distance and is often better on spam mages than it is on people who would generally use it only once in a fight - assassins. And Protobelt wasn't even meant to be an assassin item, and is being nerfed because of how many assassins and burst mages were using it as a shotgun.

Another contributor to these item's usefulness on mages over assassins is the inclusion of CDR as a core stat - theoretically AP Assassins shouldn't be reliant on it, given that they'd ideally want to kill their targets in one rotation. So why is CDR on most items that are aimed toward AP Assassins? Its like putting attack speed on AD assassin items - it goes against the point. (though I do realize that for Akali in particular the incredibly spammy nature of her spells and need to use multiple spell uses in a rotation make CDR an actually pretty great stat on her)

When you take all this into consideration, its quite disappointing, especially when the options for AD Assassins are so much better. The core AD Assassin items (item 3147 item 3142 and [Edge of Night]) all provide out of combat movement speed, which is useful for the roaming patterns of assassins but less useful for ADCs and Bruisers, as well as Lethality (flat pen) which, while useful for all AD champions, is more useful on Assassins because they have the most capability to reach squishy champions who are the most vulnerable to flat pen. And all of their new passives and actives reinforce roaming and burst as core strengths of AD Assassins. These items cater to assassins in ways that no AP item does.

After seeing these great new items, I can't help but feel the lack of similar itemization updates for AP assassins is a huge missed opportunity. I feel like part of the reason you end up seeing characters like Ekko, Fizz, and Akali going tank builds is because the itemization for them as AP Assassins is lackluster. I'd love to see real AP Assassin items, ones that ditch high-burst actives and CDR as a core stat and instead include things like out-of-combat movement speed, flat magic penetration, and unique passives that encourage and support roaming playstyles. Hopefully one day we'll actually see it.

16 Comments

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

Kinda seems like a nonissue to me tbh.

The problems with assassins and adcs sharing items for a long time is that they had such different needs from items that when they share the same items you get some unhealthy power curves and some weird gameplay. But I don't really see issues like that for mage assassins. they want pretty much the same stats and a lot of the same effects. mages and assassins perform much more similar roles, which is why they're both usually mid laners

Anonagon1 votes

I get where you're coming from, but the overwhelming majority of the evidence we have suggests that AP Assassins aren't well served by the items that are available to them. Some function similarly enough to a mage that standard mage items become ideal for them (Leblanc, Ahri), but characters like Ekko, Akali, and Fizz, who build AP but don't quite want the same combination of mana and CDR that lots of early mage items provide are kind of left in the dust.

There are clearly different stats that mages and AP assassins want, even if AP is the primary stat of both. AP assassins could really use movement speed, flat magic pen, and mana regeneration, whereas mages would rather have CDR, flat mana, and some defensive stats (let me explain the mana regen vs mana thing real quick - assassins don't really need flat mana because they generally want to do everything in one or two rotations, which are easily accomplished with just base mana, whereas mages theoretically like flat mana better because it allows them to spam longer). While all of these stats can be appreciated by the other group, they don't provide quite as much value to the other group. This is similar to how AD Assassins can use attack speed and crit but can't use it as well as ADCs can, and vice versa for lethality and movement speed.

AP Assassins could use effects similar to those of the new AD Assassin items - ward avoidance, anti-anti-engage tools, bonuses for breaking sight, etc. These kind of effects just don't exist on any AP items.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

I don't really see how ekko or fizz are left in the dust (don't know akali or her weird gunblade builds that well). they're well served by a lot of items that make good early options. Lich bane, abyssal, zhonyas, rocketbelt, and Ludens are all pretty nice items for what they wanna do

Anonagon1 votes

Its not that they aren't good items, its that, aside from Lich Bane, they're put to equal or better use by mages, who gain all the same benefits on top of their range.

And I do feel these champions have been left behind a bit - there's a reason Ekko has been more common as a tank pick top than as a mid laner. Given his absolutely insane ratios and how effective his burst is lategame, you'd think Ekko would be a better pick mid, but he isn't played much, nor is he considered strong as a mid laner. Something is obviously lacking, and I think what Ekko is lacking is the kind of early-midgame impact that other champions get from strong itemization synergy.

Even if its something of a nonissue, there's only gain to be had from expanding AP itemization to support stronger roaming playstyles.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

I think his kit just favored what tanks want to do too much and didn't reward you enough when you do build AP by comparison. time will tell but I think they figured out how to solve that now.

I would say its only natural for AP assassins and mages to share much more itemization than, like, ADCs and AD assassins. They use the same baseline stats (while ADCs like crit and attack speed generally, which aren't designed for what assassins do). and the reason for that is assassins and burst mages fill pretty much the same roles on a team.

Lux might do it with range instead of mobility but her goal is still to catch and burst squishies just like an assassin, so its only natural they'd want a lot of the same items. That's generally why assassins and mages share mid lane too, they're just not very different from each other.

Anonagon1 votes

A Mage and an Assassin don't fill the same role on a team though. The difference between an AP Assassin and a Mage is almost exactly like the difference between an AD Assassin and a ADC. The Assassins trade raw sustained damage as well as AoE and CC in favor of mobility, single target burst, and target selection. Lux would love to be using her spells on a squishy, but her lack of mobility and the skillshot nature of her abilities make it so Lux is best served using her spells for their AoE and CC potential. Similarly, an ADC would love to be attacking the backline, but they can't get there without dying, so they simply attack whatever they can. Assassins, whether AD or AP, have the option to choose who to attack and when, and that makes their role vastly different from a mage or ADC.

So AP Assassins trade a Mage's AoE and CC for the mobility and target selection they have. They can't fill the same sort of "just do lots of AoE damage" niche that most Mages do, so their itemization needs are different. Luden's Echo, for example, caters more to mages by having a large amount of AP and a passive that does AoE damage and encourages spell spamming - distinctly mage things. AP Assassins use the item because "its more burst I guess".

Its just like how before these upcoming reworks and itemization changes, you would see Rengars with IE and Shiv. Because "this is what gives me lots of burst". You might see a Talon buy IE "because if my Q crits its basically a one-shot". The changes to AD Assassin itemization are designed to take them away from "this is what makes me burst big" and put them at "this is what lets me be an assassin". Right now AP Assassin itemization is stuck in the former.

Irelia Bot1 votes

You are a marksmen main so you have your bias in favor of limiting their counters and not limiting their power.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

No I'm not lol

Irelia Bot1 votes

BRB trying gunblade Diana.

Anonagon1 votes

I honestly don't think it would be that bad. Definitely should also be going Nashor's then. I'd say overall it should be more of a DPS build than an assassin one if you're going to go Gunblade.

I mainly put Gunblade in the list of AP Assassin items because of how core it is for Akali and how it exists as a tech sustain option for the others, if you were joking about that.

Irelia Bot1 votes

Well I was actually thinking of the active adding to her burst and better chase.

Anonagon1 votes

Its certainly worth trying, though I think Protobelt would generally be better for that purpose right now, as its damage is higher right now, but after the next patch and the protobelt nerf, Gunblade would be good.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

i really used to like diana. but more i played other assassins. she feels. so shitty. she just basically. i have enough damage to kill or i die. she can't get out of fights and her kit is clunky as its based around some attack speed for some reason

Anonagon2 votes

Its based around attack speed because Riot never wanted her to be an assassin lmao

Irelia Bot1 votes

That is her bane as an assassin.

Blàdedancer1 votes

I main AP Ekko. I can tell you, AP items for assassins are fine. Most of the mags items are strong enough for the assassins to use them. My general build is Morello, Lich, Sorc Boots, Ludens, Protobelt, and then Void or Rabadons. The burst I get is insane, AP assassins are ok. I actually think AD assassins are lacking, they killed youmuus and duskblade seems kinda meh. What other items are core for AD assassins?

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