In a month, Quinn will be 2 years old. Time to fix her Rito.

Anonagon··119 votes·7,093 views

Soon everyone's favorite bird-obsessed cosplayer will be turning two years old. Yet the last time Quinn received some actual love from Riot was patch 4.5, when her base armor was increased - 8 months ago.

Quinn is... an odd champion, to say the least. She's an assassin/marksman hybrid who some people hate with a burning passion while others just love. But she's been ignored despite needing many fixes to sloppy mistakes in her design. This issues, combined with her unique playstyle, are a huge turnoff for first-timers, meaning the only people who really ever pick her are dedicated Quinn mains. If her awkward quirks were fixed, Quinn would be a much more accessible champion and her competitive viability greatly increased.

Let me start off by saying that conceptually and in terms of gameplay, Quinn's kit as a base is fun, healthy, unique, and in no need of any major rework, like some Quinn haters would suggest. She doesn't need to be drastically changed.

I'll go through each ability and talk about what is wrong.

Passive - Harrier

Valor periodically marks a nearby enemy with Harrier Vulnerable for 4.5 seconds. This cannot occur again for a few seconds, decreasing if Quinn triggers the Vulnerable. If Quinn attacks a Vulnerable enemy, she deals 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 / 75 / 85 / 95 / 105 / 115 / 125 / 135 / 145 / 155 / 170 / 185 / 200 / 215 (15 + 10 / 15 at each level) (+ 50% bonus AD) bonus physical damage. Harrier is disabled while Tag Team is active.

This passive is great for Quinn, as it gives her lane power, strength in small trades, and better last hitting. However, there is one major problem with this passive - it cripples her AA animations. In fact, Quinn's AA animations in general are horrendous. Orbwalking and last-hitting are much harder on Quinn than they are on other ADCs, especially Lucian who was released shortly after Quinn. Quinn's normal AA animation and her Harrier Proc could both use a cleanup.

Next up is her Q, Blinding Assault

ACTIVE: Quinn commands Valor to fly forwards in a line, stopping when he collides with an enemy. Valor then deals physical damage and blinds nearby enemies within 210-range for 1.5 seconds. ACTIVE - TAG TEAM: Valor deals physical damage to all enemies within 275-range of himself and blinds them for 1.5 seconds.

There is one glaring problem with this ability, that all Quinn players can relate to. If a enemy uses a auto-attack enhancing ability (Nasus Q) before they are blinded their enhanced AA, base damage and on-hit, will completely ignore blind. I believe this issue also affects Teemo's Q, though it is much less noticeable because blinding dart is much harder to react to in time. While the blind bug is really the only issue with Quinn's Q, it may be worth the time to change the blind duration from a flat 1.5 seconds to a scaling 1-2 seconds. Many top laners, especially AA reliant ones, are greatly annoyed by Quinn's Q, and reducing its earlygame duration may alleviate the problem.

Quinn's W, Heightened Senses, is the home of one of her less obvious inconsistencies.

PASSIVE: Attacking a Vulnerable target will grant Quinn bonus attack speed and flat movement speed for 3 seconds. ATTACK SPEED: 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% FLAT MOVEMENT SPEED: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 PASSIVE - TAG TEAM: Valor gains bonus attack speed. ATTACK SPEED: 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80% ACTIVE: All area within range is revealed for 2 seconds.

Harrier seems alright at a first glance, and it is for the most part. However, it feels odd that the attack speed steroid on her ultimate is based on ranks in W. This necessitates maxing W second, which most first-time Quinn players won't notice. This contributes to the insistence by non-Quinn players that Quinn's ultimate is weak. Having the attack speed buff as Valor be 50/65/80% based on ranks in Tag Team makes more sense.

Quinn's E is overall in a good spot, especially since the issue of her sometimes Vaulting in the wrong direction has been supposedly fixed. Some people have said they still encounter that bug - I have not encountered the issue, but I have put in no effort into reproducing it. It may be worth Riot's time to look into this again, as no one wants to rely on something that has even the smallest chance of doing exactly the opposite of whats expected.

The first part of Quinn's ultimate, Tag Team, is great. Its a powerful steroid with many uses. Its not always the best thing to activate Tag Team, but I believe that Tag Team being situational like Olaf's ult is much better than something like Nasus or Renekton, where it basically comes down to "Do I need 300 extra health to win this fight?". One problem with this ultimate, however is its cooldown (140 / 110 / 80). This cooldown may not seem huge at first, but the problem is that the cooldown begins when Skystrike is cast, rather than at the beginning of Tag Team. This punishes Quinn for making use of Tag Team's duration. Tag Team's cooldown should be 140/110/80 seconds, whether she uses it for 2 seconds or 20 seconds.

Skystrike also presents us with a small problem. The damage reaches its cap when the target is dead. The damage should cap at 75% missingHP, just like Riven's ultimate. This would bring some serious reliability to Skystrike's damage, which notably isn't all that much damage.

So, TL;DR:

  • clean up her AA animations
  • fix the blind bug
  • make her attack speed steroid as Valor scale in ranks in R
  • ult's cooldown should start at the beginning of Tag Team, not the end
  • Skystrike's damage should cap at 75% missingHP

If you've read all this, thanks. If you have something to say, feel free to comment.

EDIT: So after 104 comments and nearly 100 upvotes, its clear that most people agree that Quinn's bugs are overwhelming and need to be fixed. Two other things seem to be important here, so I'll address them here.

First off is Quinn's top lane bullying potential. Many top lane players have commented and said how they do not wish to see Quinn buffed, as her kit is very anti-melee. As someone who has played as and against Quinn top on multiple occasions, I get the concern. While I do believe that Quinn's bullying strength is overstated (especially in comparison to champions like Gnar, Lissandra, and, god forbid, Heimerdinger), I understand that QoL fixes and Bugfixes for Quinn could come as serious buffs, and it may be important to address her safety in a solo lane.

As I said earlier, the first change that comes to mind is changing her flat 1.5 second blind to a scaling 1-2 second blind. However, this does nothing to help any champion who isn't AA reliant. The next obvious nerf would to be to increase the cooldown of her E a bit, and reduce the kickoff distance slightly. The reduced distance would both make her more vulnerable to melees in top lane as well as fix the problem of her sometimes landing outside her AA range. Its a change that can be appreciated by both Quinn lovers and Quinn haters. If it comes down to it, I'd be perfectly willing to trade flat damage on Q or Harrier for the fixes Quinn really needs.

The other point of discussion that many of you have brought up is the lack of a passive during Tag Team. While I understand that for some people it may feel weird not having a passive during Tag Team, I believe that it is unnecessary to demand a passive for Valor. For one thing, Valor has been functioning perfectly fine without a passive. The other reason I do not believe we should request a passive for Valor right now is because we should focus on the QoL changes and bugfixes she has needed for so long. A passive for Valor is a straight buff, and doesn't solve the main problems Quinn has right now, which is mainly unreliability caused by bugs.

136 Comments

Aboylova9222 votes

I actually really like her, and to me simply fixing her auto attack animations would help her leaps and bounds. A Varus level AA would be huge for me as I think he has one of the "cleaner" feeling AA if you get what I mean.

Generally I play her mid as she can bully a fare few champs, and her ult lets her roam pretty much anywhere as an assassin, but it really says everything about what people think of her, and where she sits currently, when you pick her and your team begins to rage at you for a "troll pick."

freeformline3 votes

I was an Urgot main before I took up supporting. I recently started playing some Quinn, and I can totally sympathize with you all.

Saixos4 votes

Agree with this completely. Her autoattacks feeling really clunky is a big reason why I haven't bought her and tried to get decent with her. I'm used to having very smooth auto-attacks, Vayne or Caitlyn. Quinn is just so much more awkward when it comes to it.

BluePolarizer9 votes

I play quinn top alot, and the autoattack cancelling when the arrows are already in flight is really annoying. Some simple animation/quality of life changes would make her ALOT better. I'm not saying give her an autoattack like Vayne, but at least Ashe or Varus level, you know? Also, a passive during Valor form would be nice, maybe either marking her autoattack target once every 3 seconds or a small HP/armor/MR boost. Capping her execute at 75% missing HP would also greatly enhance her off-role as a bruiser/assassin.

Seriously:

  1. Improve autoattack animation, making it so that the attack completes when the arrows get fired first, not when they're done firing, and make her relaxation animation shorter. It makes no sense that an automatic crossbow has a longer relaxation time than Vayne's huge ass manual crossbow.

  2. Let her keep her passive/gain a new passive in Valor form.

  3. Cap her execute threshold at 75% missing HP instead of 99%.

Madra8 votes

Any buffs to Quinn would be the start of a huge downward spiral that would leave her worse off from where she started at. I'm sure someone at Riot is thinking right now: "THIS time, I'm going to show them! This will be the best rework of them all!" right before cackling and snorting Red Bull up his nose.

Anonagon11 votes
  1. I explicitly said she shouldn't get a rework

  2. Did you even read the OP? None of that, except maybe the cooldown on ult, would be a huge buff. All my suggestions are more comparable to QoL changes

the Anarchit3cht7 votes

There is a little truth to what he is saying though. If these QoL changes make Quinn see more play then there's bound to be a bunch of people whining "OMG SO OP HIT QUINN WITH THE NERFBAT PLS" and then Riot will fumble around for a little while, inevitably nerf her because of some stupid bs like "Her kit just synergizes to much with her values and we don't to destroy her unique identity so we've lowered her damage by --but don't worry, we gave her to compensate! Just please, don't bring up Lee Sin."

not a starburst1 votes

The nerfbat would be less annoying if there were more buff candy being thrown about and if it weren't currently hitting everywhere but within a mile of Lee Sin. Honestly, the best way to deal with her trashing melees top is to sync her E to her opponents' or her AA range, whichever is shorter. That way she still gets the same value without invalidating less mobile melees quite so badly.

Kijinx2 votes

So, wait, you want her E to put her right beside a melee champion? (if used on one) While we're at it why not make vayne always tumble towards an enemy, or ezreal can arcane shift but after 1 second returns to where he shifted from?

Auz the Ripper3 votes

That Ez change would be amazing Blink forward, trade and blink back before they could reaction

And the Jukes

Hawkefire3 votes

There is an issue that I have with fixing the (very many) bugs with Quinn, and I think it is because of this issue that riot has been so hesitant (and procrastinated so long).

Quinn is incredibly hard to deal with as a melee champion, even champs that have gap closers have a very rough time against her (this is of course assuming the Quinn is skilled and know hows to kite properly).

It is because of her sheer power in simply destroying melee champions in the top lane that I feel that she remains in her buggy state.

Retillin6 votes

My favourite bug with Quinn is when I go for the burst from valor and my "blinding assault" (during tag team) ends up blinding ME. So I then spend the next 1.5 secs missing 2 attacks while the tryn/yas/zed hit me with their auto attacks. Sadly I only have this happen 1 out of 5 or 6 attempts so I can't re-created it.

Anonagon5 votes

{quoted}

My favourite bug with Quinn is when I go for the burst from valor and my "blinding assault" (during tag team) ends up blinding ME. So I then spend the next 1.5 secs missing 2 attacks while the tryn/yas/zed hit me with their auto attacks. Sadly I only have this happen 1 out of 5 or 6 attempts so I can't re-created it.

I... wow. That's just... weird. I've personally never experienced this bug (as I simply have not really been playing Quinn much lately), and this is the first time I've heard of it. If it is really there, its something that needs to be fixed asap.

ModWulf Helhammer4 votes

that's just weird. I play Quinn for almost all my games, and I have never encountered that. Sorry if that has happened to you :(

BetaDude407 votes

"Valor, to me!

...Valor...?

VALOR NO!!"

Oh god, now I want to attempt this so badly. It sounds so horrifying, we have to get Rito's attention

Retillin2 votes

I remember the first time I got blinded by Valor. I was playing Quinn top (as I tend to do) vs a Nasus. After some poke back and forth he made a big mistake and I just went in on him in Valor form. Killed him with an E > W > Q combo. (didn't need the ult) However When I went to attack a minion right after his death I missed it twice with auto attacks. I have (over 2 years of time) had this happen about 4 or 5 times. It makes me a sad birder.

Caoil4 votes

I mained Quinn before the lifesteal nerfs because BT was such a good item on her (especially in bird form).

Here are my proposed easy fixes to her:

  1. Lower CD on her ult, even just to be on par with Sivir's ult. There's no reason why Quinn's ult CD should be so much longer than Sivir's, especially because Quinn's doesn't give utility to the whole team.

  2. Lower blind duration at early ranks, but make it scale as she puts points in Q so that she isn't so menacing top lane. (as OP mentioned)

  3. Again, clean up her autos. I hate when it looks like the auto hits, so I move and my auto is cancelled. If I play her like I play my other ADCs (attack and move), I have to stop for at least half a second just to make sure my auto does damage when it lands. This makes kiting really hard.

  4. Make her ult remove any slows affecting her upon cast. Basically when playing Quinn you can use her ult either to escape, or to engage a fight. It also fits her character ("I'm slowed, Valor to me so I can climb on you and escape")

Vesarixx4 votes

What the patch notes would probably look like

Fixed a bug where Quinns auto attacks could be cancelled well after they had been issued(Also see MF) Quinns passive will no longer mark enemies that would die from a normal auto attack(or minions that just died) Fixed a bug where Q was not applying the blind Fixed a bug where Q was not affecting on hit effects if they were activated before the blind took effect Fixed a bug where E was not accounting for the knock back portion of the ability and placing Quinn outside of auto attack range passive now checks if a target has been marked both on hit and when launching the auto attack(rather than not going off if the attack was already in the air) Fixed a bug where Harrier was slowing down Quinns attack animation Fixed a bug where vault was placing Quinn within melee range after the leap or going in a different direction entirely. Allow Quinn to ignore unit collision for 2 seconds after landing when using vault

I might have missed some things but there is a lot to fix

Konidias3 votes

People seem to be forgetting that she has more bugs than mentioned...

  1. Passive doesn't proc unless you get closer than AA range. Try it. Get far enough away from Gromp and right click it to walk forward and AA. You will NEVER proc the passive. You have to actually walk even closer in order for the passive to proc.

  2. Blind does not work in the proper order. Again, go up to Gromp and throw your blind at it. The first attack Gromp performs after the blind hits, will still land on Quinn. Uhhh wtf? Jungle camps are reactionary so shouldn't any attacks they initiate happen after you've attacked them once?

Riot is just ignoring Quinn. 100%.

Look at how many Quinn threads have been made about all her issues and then look at how many red posts have been made. Zero response.

Anonagon1 votes

I've tested and the blind works just as you said. I'll probably make a second thread on bug reports for the easy-to-recreate bugs with her Q.

Rustling Bush2 votes

i just started playing quinn top like 2 days ago. i really like her and i'm sure other people trying her won't seem like turn off. even though her basic animation are clunky, they hit like a rock making it really easy to last his minons early on, i usually get to lv 2 before their top lane comes out of jungle from leashing. outside of that i don't have any real insight into quinn

Anonagon3 votes

Ah, you play her in the top lane. In top, some of her issues, especially the problem with her AA animations, are much less pronounced. Have you tried playing her bottom lane?

Only Play Darius2 votes

8 out of 10 games there's a Quinn on the enemy team she ends up getting a pentakill at some point in the game. Either Quinn is really broken or the people who specialize her know her REALLY well, unlikely as it is. Either way it's gotten so bad that if Quinn is ever ahead on the enemy team, when teamfights break out I just walk back to base, let Quinn get her quadra, then sit in fountain until someone else kills her. 75% of the pentakills I have ever witnessed are from a champion who rarely gets picked, and I'm not about to be a part of another one.

Since she is also more durable than most ADC's, she is an absolute c*nt to fight against if she goes top lane and you picked a tank or bruiser, as is customary for top. Honestly I have taken less harass from Teemo .

Anonagon5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ehqc93PA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-02-03T02:03:25.547+0000)

8 out of 10 games there's a Quinn on the enemy team she ends up getting a pentakill at some point in the game. Either Quinn is really broken or the people who specialize her know her REALLY well, unlikely as it is.

Well, uh, surprising as it may be, its the second one. Quinn does have an insane lategame but using it properly requires lots of practice and mastery.

Since she is also more durable than most ADC's, she is an absolute c*nt to fight against if she goes top lane and you picked a tank or bruiser, as is customary for top. Honestly I have taken less harass from Teemo .

Well, first off, Quinn is not the only ranged cancer top laner, and by far not the worst (that title goes to Gnar or Lissandra). Its sad, but if you don't know who you are going against, and you are top, you should probably pick someone who can handle ranged laners. Though I do realize that fighting Quinn in top can be a bitch, especially for someone like Trynd. That is why I put in the comment about reducing her blind duration.

Ariaflux5 votes

75% of the pentakills I have ever witnessed are from a champion who rarely gets picked

This could be because of the following reasons:

  1. Only players who are very skilled at the champion dare to pick him/her.
  2. Enemy underestimate capabilities of said champion.
  3. Enemy not familiar with playstyle of said champion as it's rarely seen and do not know how to counter them.
  4. Champion is OP but somehow millions of players don't notice it.

Quinn averages 2-3% popularity in ranked solo queue, with decreasing popularity as you move from Bronze to Diamond (>3% to below 1%)

Tiure4 votes

Malzahar And sometimes all 4!

YOU BEEN WARNED2 votes

Rework her cancerous toplane bullying potential or go home.

Anonagon4 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ehqc93PA,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-02-03T03:34:41.055+0000)

Rework her cancerous toplane bullying potential or go home.

I suggested a reduction in her blinds duration as a potential change to reduce top lane bullying. You would have noticed that had you actually read the thread.

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

Why put a tl;dr if you're going to call me out on an important detail, which you did not include in it ?

Besides the blind isn't the only problem, her entire kit butchers the fk out of melee toplaners.

W means brush control.

E means your gapcloser is negated ( if you even had one Darius Trundle Nasus Chogath ) and you will eat a Harrier empowered auto attack.

R means; did you somehow survive laning phase against Quinn? Well good for you! Too bad Tag Team outscales you by default.

There is just no winning against Quinn top, the only weakness is being ganked early and then she still has her E to escape. Her entire kit is anti melee toplaner. Until Riot designs awesome fully tailored anti ranged champions I will be happy with Quinn remaining clunky.

Baron of Bread3 votes

Vayne top would be a similar situation; she has Tumble as a dash and if necessary she can Condemn you as well. I am fairly certain that she was even a meta toplaner for a while. Also there is Kalista with her infinite hops, Graves with his dash and vision reducer, Lucian with his dash and Corki with true damage on his AAs and a dash. Lots of ranged characters have ways to deal with immobile (and some mobile) melees. This doesn't mean that this one needs changes.

Also, anti-ranged champ: Vi

And if you are really having trouble against these top lane ADCs, take the anti-ADC: Urgot :P

Oh, and if you are having troubles with Darius vs Quinn, you can Apprehend her as she jumps off your face.

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

Did you read my response at all? I said every single spell she has counters melee toplaners. As a summoner who plays a lot of champions, and most of league's champions happen to be Fighters; it's normal I'd come to hate Quinn. Vayne also is a problem but at least her entire kit isn't one big F bomb to melees, same for the other ADCs.

Braum Yasuo Have 1 spell that is anti ranged. Just like Vi's R.

Karma 's entire kit is anti melee : 4 spells Lissandra 's entire kit is anti melee : 4 spells Quinn 's entire kit is anti melee : 4 spells

They're all F melee champions. 4 spells.

Not to mention the ones whose kit is partially anti-melee but they do it too well:

Azir Gnar Janna

I want a few melees that are F ranged to accept these kits' existence ?

Focus Teemo2 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ehqc93PA,comment-id=00070000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-03T07:42:37.725+0000)

Did you read my response at all? I said every single spell she has counters melee toplaners. As a summoner who plays a lot of champions, and most of league's champions happen to be Fighters; it's normal I'd come to hate Quinn. Vayne also is a problem but at least her entire kit isn't one big F bomb to melees, same for the other ADCs.

Braum Yasuo Have 1 spell that is anti ranged. Just like Vi's R.

Karma 's entire kit is anti melee : 4 spells Lissandra 's entire kit is anti melee : 4 spells Quinn 's entire kit is anti melee : 4 spells

They're all F melee champions. 4 spells.

Not to mention the ones whose kit is partially anti-melee but they do it too well:

Azir Gnar Janna

I want a few melees that are F ranged to accept these kits' existence ?

Yasuo Make a champion with anti-ranged capabilities everyone flips their shit. Kalista make champions who invalidates melees entirely "its balanced because other ranged champs like Graves can beat them". This is what we call the Ghostcrawler effect. Basically "fuck melee, ranged of GTFO".

Equal treatment for melees has been an ongoing argument forever. Its depressing people would ignore it. Riot acknowledges this... then makes champions like Gnar.

However since this is a Quinn thread, i will say she is less harmful to this imbalance than the aforementioned champions.

Baron of Bread3 votes

Quinn doesn't counter quite a few top laners:

Sion: Blind? Just Q. She Vaults to interrupt? Shield it. She gets bush vision? Shoot a minion at her. She turns into a bird? Run into her.

Rumble: Blind? Shoot fire. She Vaults? Hit her on the way in with a harpoon and fire, but make sure to shield her damage. She gets vision? Shoot fire or harpoons. She turns into a bird? Fight her in your ult and get her with the harpoons so she can't get away.

Yasuo: Blind? Doesn't affect Q even if you didn't Wind Wall it. She Vaults? Hit her with a tornado or just dash through a minion to get to her. She gets vision? Use a ward, or hit her. She turns into a bird? Fight her if you don't see an escape.

Riven: 4 gap closers and no particular need to AA until after the blind is over.

Chogath: Blind? Don't care. She Vaults? You know where she is landing, so you get a Q off (this can interrupt her dash if you see it coming, leaving her next to you). She is a bird? Time for your burst. Get poked a lot? Your passive is for sustain, use it.

Trundle: Blind? That sucks, but you can survive. She Vaults? Pillar interrupts that and she is slowed. Getting poked? Your sustain is ridiculous. She turns into a bird? If you get the Pillar off she won't get away and if she fights you will win duels.

Yorick: Blind? Send a ghoul after her. She Vaults? Send a ghoul after her. Getting poked? Send a ghoul after her. She turns into a bird? Send a ghoul after her and if you are worried ult yourself and trade kills.

Lee Sin: Blind? You can skip a few AAs, or use them and get the energy back anyway. She Vaults? Hit her with Q on her way in then press Q again when she lands or use W to ward dash. She gets vision? You probably have a sight stone. Get poked? You have lots of sustain. She is a bird? If you are worried kick her away after she gap closes or dash away, if you aren't worried you can kick her into your tower.

Mordekaiser: Blind? Siphon. She Vaults? You are rather poke resistant and she dives through your Creeping Death and probably a Siphon. She gets vision? I mentioned wards earlier and am mentioning them again. Get poked? You are Morde, poke means nothing. She is a bird? Great, you always wanted a ghost bird pet.

Quinn also doesn't have great wave clear, so if you can blow up the wave she will probably be trying to cs more than poke you. These aren't perfect for dealing with Quinn, but I hope it helps you deal with her in the future.

Also, what would you define as a F ranged kit?

BluePolarizer2 votes

Quinn fks Riven up though because most of Riven's damage early game is in empowered autos, not Q itself, and 1 Harrier proc chunks her. This sticks because Riven has no sustain and crap base regen, and if she went Doran's blade, she only has 1 pot. If Riven tries to all-in at lvl 2, she'll get chunked by minions. If she pushes for lvl 2 advantage, you can safely farm at tower. There's literally nothing Riven can do except get a jungler gank or get lucky at lvl 3 with a E/stun then Q chase, if you don't vault the E or blind it or just run away from her when she E's. With good poke, it won't even matter if Riven gets a jungler gank because you'll just kill her with Q/vault/ignite and then kite the jungler through minions.

Antemos Xaos5 votes

Oh dear, god forbid riven have trouble with a Lane Opponent.

Baron of Bread1 votes

Riven was just one of the examples I thought would work well. Didn't know it didn't go well for her as I have never been Quinn vs Riven, sorry for mixing that up.

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

Riven is one of the best melees VS ranged champions because of her gapclosers & shield. If she can't beat Quinn, what makes you think the examples you mentioned would ? Not even Yasuo beats her post 6 because windwall is rendered useless.

Most of the others get outscaled late if they have the ability to survive.

There is no F ranged kit in the game yet, there is not a champion with 4 abilities that screw up ranged.

Fizz is as close as you can get and he was disgustingly overpowered; he killed everything, not just ranged. Not a fair champion, and not something I'd want.

Baron of Bread1 votes

If you had a melee that was designed to F ranged, what would their kit look like? I imagine it would basically be a bunch of ranged abilities, gapclosers, shields/heals and soft/hard cc. The closest champs I can think of for this are ALL OF THE ASSASSINS.

Talon has a ranged slow, a blink slow, and a ms boost/invisibility (3 out of 4). Akali has a ranged ability, three gapclosers, and an ms boost/slow field (3 out of 4, or 4 out of 4 if you count her E as ranged). Zed has two gapclosers, a ranged ability, and a slow (4 out of 4). Yasuo has a ranged ability, a gapcloser, a shield on his passive, a projectile stomper, and another gapcloser (5 out of 4 or 4 out of 4 if you don't want to count his Q as ranged). Fiora has 3 gapclosers, an untargetability, a ms boost, and an AA reflect (4 out of 4, or 5 out of 4 if you want to include her heal passive). Kassadin has a ranged attack/shield, a slow, and a blink (3 out of 4). Kha'Zix has a ranged slow, a gapcloser, an anti-isolation attack which ranged champs are more likely to be than melee, and a ms boost invisibility (4 out of 4). Nocturne has a ms boost, a fear, a spell shield, and a gapcloser (4 out of 4 or 5 out of 4 if you count heal passive). Pantheon has a ranged attack, a gapcloser/stun, an AoE with decent range, and a nigh global gapcloser (4 out of 4 or 5 out of 4 if you include his pasive). Shaco has a gapcloser/invisibility, a fear, and a slow (3 out of 4). Xin Zhao has a knock up, a heal, a gapcloser/slow, and an AoE attack that grants resistances and isolates the target if they aren't already (4 out of 4). Lastly we have Lee Sin with a ranged attack, a gapcloser, a shield/gapcloser, a slow, and a knock up/back (4 out of 4).

So hey, there are plenty of melees that can crap all over ranged characters. The problem with a specifically F ranged champ is that it would be hard to make them really good against ranged champs and not also really strong against melees. What do you think would make a good anti-ranged champ that doesn't just crap all over everyone?

EDIT: I listed the reasons I thought the others would be good against Quinn. They might not win top, but I think they should at least do reasonably well against her.

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

Ranged ability =/= counter ranged. Slows Karma , snares Lissandra and knockbacks Quinn counter melees because they deny their auto attacks. You do not deny ranged auto attacks with ranged spells for example.

Hard CC /can/ count as counter ranged ( not so much against guys like Urgot & Vladimir ). Windwall is specifically counter ranged. Shields are counter burst, not counter ranged ( except for the case of Malphite where it is free )

Gapclosers counter ranged, which is why I mentioned fizz ( 2 gap closers and a hard CC nuke ). The spell is meaningless when the ranged has his own gapcloser e.g Gnar Azir Quinn , so counter ranged mechanics are lacking.

And you see, assassins keep getting nerfed because they don't specifically address ranged champions. ( Akali Katarina )

Also, the anti ranged mechanics like Nautilus R is negated by supports like Morgana 's black shield & others like Lulu while fighters' option in form of tenacity is either lacking or considered OP ( I don't believe Irelia Gangplank Olaf Alistar are OP but I'm giving you examples of strength of such aspect, it's either too good or too weak. )

It's not fair. Riot is trying to reintroduce healthy melee ADCs (

Baron of Bread1 votes

I understand your point about assassins, which is why I asked

What do you think would make a good anti-ranged champ that doesn't just crap all over everyone?

If you can point out a way to do such a thing I will concede the point, but I don't think there is a way to have a healthy character that targets only ranged champions.

YOU BEEN WARNED2 votes

Honestly I said that out of hatred, I don't want an unhealthy pattern to fight these unhealthy patterns Karma Lissandra Quinn.

For some reason my previous comment was cut off, I explained the whole thing but it's off my head right now.

I had ideas like a support champion with toggle ultimate similar to Anivia Swain Maokai summoning a tower at target location that absorbs ranged auto attacks working with the champion's mana.

Or a mage with these towers as utility spells that have their own hp like Zyra plants.

A fighter that converts damage to healing for a short duration without ridiculous mana costs like Galio's W would work well.

A tank whose CDs are reduced every time he is slowed/CC'd.

I don't want Blitzcrank to be the way to deal with a ranged champion. You either 100-0 the ranged champion ( not fun to play against ) or you don't, being useless ( not fun to play as. )

A gravity AP fighter champion negating dashes would be great, similar to Soraka's E.

These are fresh ideas I pulled out of my head, but Riot keeps releasing anti melees instead as if they're the oppressive category. :\

Baron of Bread1 votes

I actually really like these ideas, especially the tower one (where it has its own health). If you made it taunt instead of draw in AAs that would probably be better, since that helps with ability users like Lissandra (I imagine the tower like a Trundle pillar that taunts anyone that touches it as well as being treated like a minion). Just so long as these stay on melees they should be fine (imagine a taunt like that on a ranged character). I think making a new discussion for ideas like these would be worthwhile.

Mama Soraka2 votes

As someone who enjoys playing Quinn, I'm surprised you missed the most obvious area Quinn needs tweaking. Her jokes are way too good, nerf please.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Personally, as a Quinn main, the one there a a couple things that I think would be really nice to have, first being Valor getting a passive. As numerous people have stated, Quinn loses out on a big chunk of her damage when she doesn't have Harrier. Admittedly Val doesn't need more damage, but something to compensate for not having a passive would be nice, maybe some kind of increased durability?

PS, I'm not sure, but did you say to max W second? I max that last. My skill order is usually: Start Q, then E, W, Q, E, R, then max Q. After that, I put another point in W, then max E, and lastly W (R when available)

XaviorZeroBlazer2 votes

{quoted}

Personally, as a Quinn main, the one there a a couple things that I think would be really nice to have, first being Valor getting a passive. As numerous people have stated, Quinn loses out on a big chunk of her damage when she doesn't have Harrier. Admittedly Val doesn't need more damage, but something to compensate for not having a passive would be nice, maybe some kind of increased durability?

PS, I'm not sure, but did you say to max W second? I max that last. My skill order is usually: Start Q, then E, W, Q, E, R, then max Q. After that, I put another point in W, then max E, and lastly W (R when available)

they probably max W second because of the passive att speed boost valor gets

Kitten of Evil3 votes

The shortened cooldown on the W sight active isn't bad either.

Anonagon2 votes

Valor always does more damage than Quinn. Maxing W second assures this. Valor has a bit less damage than Quinn in a short burst, but always has the edge in longer fights. On top of this Valor has unparalleled mobility and reliability. I do not believe that Valor really needs a passive - it would be a huge buff, when the only things Quinn needs are some QoL.

Agent Tatsu1 votes

Quinn is one of my favorite ADCs next to Varus and Caitlyn, so I kind of took it to heart that any of you would ever insult her. However, i realized after reading the thread and all its comments and replies that picking Quinn top lane is basically a win condition. You pick your meta, flavor of the month champion of choice that you've been practicing for a few months and I pick Quinn, but I win because I picked Quinn and you didn't. I've been looking through some of these comments and i agree some of her power could be taken away from being completely untouchable while still maintaining Quinn's overall health and playability.

One thing I didn't think much of untill now is that not only does Vault double as an escape/engage, it also knocks back the opponent (albiet briefly) AND slows them by 50% for 2 seconds AND automatically applies Harrier to the target. Take a minute to let that of that sink in. Redundancy aside, it leaves no options for counterplay aside from blowing a flash to run for your life or offensively reposition. One of two things need to change in order for this ability to be properly toned down a bit. Either remove the slow (as one Harrier basic attack is quite enough when you consider the utility alone ability offered by Vault, and a slowed opponent only leads to more basic attacks) or reduce the range that Quinn lands from her opponent (which will give others a better chance to answer Vault with some sort of counter-attack).

Blinding Assault is quite a useful tool. A bit too useful. It presents no real decisions to make when using it aside from which champion to hit with it. I think that in order to make her less of a melee lane bully, i present two options. The first is to shorten the base blind duration and scale it with ranks in the ability. This would make the blind less overwhelming at early levels and more effective as the game moves out of the laning phase. The second is an interesting idea: Make the blind duration increase as the projectile travels. In Valor form, the blind duration would simply be lower as a trade-off to her higher damage output. This would make the ability less effective against melee opponents as Quinn (assuming you use it when they're in your face; if you used it at range it wouldn't have an effect anyways) and more effective against the ranged marksmen of the bot lane. It would also reward players who can aim well (similarly to Nidalee).

And that concludes the nerfs. Here are some buffs to compensate/improve Quinn's overall quality of life.

Quinn's Heightened Senses is a useful tool; when timed properly, it can alert you to an enemy ambush lying in wait, or it can be used as simply a facechecking tool unparalleled even by the almighty Scrying Orb. However, the simple fact that you MUST put ranks into it in order to scale Valor's attack speed is kind of...well, stupid. If you decide to invest in it pre-6, you're losing valuable ranks in other abilities. If you decide not to (what I usually do), Valor becomes somewhat outclassed by Quinn (Skystrike aside). In order to fix this, Valor's attack speed should scale with ranks in Tag Team, not Heightened Senses. This will allow Quinn players not to feel guilty about choosing one path over the other, and as much as we love trade-offs here in League of Legends, there comes a time when a champion should be able to do something simply because that what he or she does. As for the active, it's cooldown and brief reveal is rather hindering. What i suggest is a complete overhaul of the ability. We could do something really cool with it. For instance, we could have Valor act as a sort of STATIONARY ward that detects and follows enemies (like Kalista's Sentinel, but STATIONARY, hence caps). If the enemy "kills" Valor, Valor will return to Quinn and the ability will go on cooldown. If Valor does not spot an enemy, Quinn can recast the ability to command Valor to return and the ability will go on a shorter cooldown. As an added thought, Maybe Blinding Assault and Harrier will remain on cooldown while Valor is "deployed", and will be made available upon Valor's return?

Tag Team is a great alternate form to Quinn. It gives her a sort of duality that I cant get enough of. As someone who plays a lot of assassins in the mid lane, sometimes you don't wanna right-click people from afar. Sometimes you just want to go in and fuck shit up. I love this aspect of Quinn, but there are a few problems with it. Being a somewhat basic attack-reliant assassin (aside from her ult), her potential to assassinate should, like basic attacks, be limited to one champion. One way of fixing this is to change her blind from an AoE ability to an empowerment on her next basic attack. This should not cancel her basic attack animation, because we don't want to raise her DPS in doing so.

Along with the various bugfixes, i think these changes would be a lot more fair to those melee top laners we all know and love while maintaining her identity as a nimble ad-sassin...That is now a word. What do you all think?

Anonagon3 votes

Oh wow, long reply.

Now, Quinn's power as a ranged-cancer top-laner is way overstated by top lane players. Most top laners do have a way of playing around her, and the few champions who truly can't deal with Quinn are those who are nearly full-melee, and are bullied just as hard if not even worse by characters like Gnar and Lissandra. However, I can understand that Quinn's anti-melee power is something that would need to be looked at if she were to get many of her needed bugfixes. I feel changing her blind duration from 1.5 seconds to 1-2 seconds scaling by rank would be a good start. If that were not enough, I think a reduction or removal of her E's slow would be in order.

I do not see a need to drastically change her W, and I do not see her Q being AoE as a problem - its a weak nuke and has a very small AoE, so it really only ever hits her primary target.

Black Star 12991 votes

I like the change to the Q and I'd say the removal of a slow on e would really help with top laners dealing with her.

(Her E does have one weakpoint though, it doesn't do much damage by itself, but for its really good utility, it's definitely worth it.)

(P.S. If you save your e when you think your enemy top laner is gonna flash, you can jump all the way with him/her! Isn't that awesome? Even flash is useless!)

I like to play her adc bot lane, (I have no idea how to play her top) and I really like the idea of having the increased blind duration the longer valor flies. It should help a lot with dealing ranged champions a lot better, but not make her to dangerous for melee. But one thing, do you think the blind duration should be longer than now at max rank? It currently is 1.5 seconds at all ranks, but do you think it should be 2 seconds or something at max level?

The W is actually a very good ability, It's a trade off for either you want more vision and attack speed or more "I like jumping off people's faces" I'd say it would be fine if it remained the same. That way she can either be more ranged, annoying, and pokey with her E upgraded first or more vision giving, fast and quick attack speed and movement speed with W upgraded first.

And Definitely those bugfixes. Those need to go. Faster autoattack animations would be nice too :D

More from Gameplay

More by Anonagon