Boards›Gameplay

remember when Yasuo's thing was supposed to be "a mADC that doesn't shit himself when behind"?

Anonagon··56 votes·3,844 views

Yeah, I remember that too. The original release of Yasuo, the dev blog describing how he was a new attempt at the mADC design, one that had team utility and more skillful innate survivability so that even when behind he could potentially come back, or at least be somewhat uselful to his team as a knockup/windwall bot. He was to be the first mADC that wasn't feast/famine by default.

He gets released and what happens? All the things that were supposed to make Yasuo himself get nerfed so he can keep the absurd damage that has always made him a problem. Shield strength, duration, R range, flow generation, base health and movement speed... all nerfed so he could keep the ability to two-shot any squishy after two items.

Now Yasuo is just as feast-or-famine as all his mADC predecessors - or rather, he is now the MOST feast-or-famine one, because Trynd and Shaco splitpush harder, Yi has a bunch of outplay potential, and Fiora can rely on teamfight cheese.

TL;DR: Gutter Yasuo's stupid double crit passive so that he doesn't have to be absolute shit when behind.

92 Comments

r11na26 votes

TL;DR: Gutter Yasuo's stupid double crit passive so that he doesn't have to be absolute shit when behind.

Completely agree with this.

I'd go so far as to revert every nerf to yasuo, increase his damage per level and just completely remove his double crit nonsense.

As long as they keep the double crit yasuo will be forced to be subpar and one of the worst feast or famine champs in the game.

doublelift fg20 votes

doubling a stat, riot smoked a lot when they did this

MidEvilKnight3k2 votes

They didn't want Yasuo to build a ton of life steal, that's why they gave him the double crit passive. They need to reduce his damage, but not remove the passive completely. You don't want to remove that passive, and buff all his other numbers just to have BT + Bork give him ridiculous life steal plus the ability to be more defensive.

They just need to reduce his crit damage by more than the current 10%, 25%-35% would probably be enough. Maybe just reduce his damage scaling per level as well.

ABlueQuaker2 votes

I'd like to see the double crit passive become more like +0/0.25/0.5/0.75x Crit % or at the very least 0.5/0.75/1x % Crit Strike.

So instead of getting +40% Critical Strike after IE & Shiv you'd get +0% at levels 1-5, +10% at levels 6-10, +20% at levels 11-15, and +30% at levels 16+.

Or if you still wanted Yasuo to eventually get the double crit Passive, it would be more like +10% at levels 1-5, +20% at levels 6-10, +30% at levels 11-15, and +40% at levels 16+.

RP Tzuyu1 votes

that would be the last time we see yasuo too LOL ...

Troy24262113 votes

Yasuo was designed to be the safest. In reality he feels like the most vulnerable. Yi can Q dodge and has high MS, Fiora has her cheesetastic ult, Trynd can ignore death. Yasuo,...Has to gapclose into melee range as a squishy, survive long enough to Q twice and then ult?,...

A lot of his potential power, as a result, seems to be locked into the fact that he can ult off of friendly CC. Throw in a Mal ult and he becomes a lot more safe. Can just press R instead of going through the risk I mentioned above. That being said, that still makes him a cheesey gimmick MADC, which is what they tried to avoid.

Not to mention, he gets armor penn after ulting. May I ask why?,...He's squishy. Good luck sticking around to AA and Q anything. The rest of his potential power seems locked into his double crit passive.

LegitBacon661 votes

Yeah his kit was actually very unique and fun, but the double crit passive just "had" to be there because that is apparently his theme according to Rito

RP Tzuyu1 votes

did u know that yasuo with 80% critical, full ad, + 50% armor pen(ulti) 35%(LW) lose to a malphite Tank? on 1v1, even when yasuo get to ulti first for the 50% pen

TotalJerk1 votes

I think the current problem with melee ADCs is that at some point of design Riot just reverts to creating another assassin that uses autos instead of abilities. What they should focus on is creating something akin to what a ranged ADC does: repeatedly find safe opportunities to do free damage.

IcyPepper11 votes

Yi has a bunch of outplay potential,

Er, how? I think Yasuo has more outplay potential than Yi.

RP Tzuyu1 votes

whoever ulti first win, in this case, Yi win, yasuo need to get 2 Q charges before he can ulti, and 2nd, his ulti doesn't critical, and pretty deal the same as a Q with criticcal, if Yi ulti and still got caught in yasuo 3rd Q, then too bad, yi loses, and Yasuo isn't that strong, against AP with good cc, he loses, against some assassin, he loses, against tank, he loses, against some fighters, he loses

his core items are item 3087 item 3031 and how much is IE??? alot of money, but against a tank, even with 80% critical rate, 50% armor pen from ulti, he can't pierce through a thick layer of armors, and tons of hp, he then needs item 3153 or item 3035 and that is pretty much 25-30 mins game right there,

his windwall W does block alot of damages/skills, but it as well doesn't affect alot of skills, as soon as he uses his W, simply move away or leave, he is a melee, E is the only way to get close to u if his 3rd Q doesn't hit, but it requires a few minions or targets in order to get close, u just simply walk away when he use his W, and avoid fighting when minions are around

he is a quite a delicious taco if he goes against a champ with cc, with the IE nerf and his W,E nerf... he isn't that strong, full set YASUO item 3153 item 3006 item 3031 item 3035 item 3072 item 3142,item 3026 can die real quick against Tryndamere MasterYi Talon MonkeyKing Swain Diana Akali Brand Chogath Riven Rengar Volibear counter much

he can 1 shot adc, or apc, but u think he will walk away alive if ur team has good cc?

Buttigieg 202013 votes

I didn't understand 1 word of your comment.

Troy24262120 votes

Yi has a deceptive skill ceiling.

IcyPepper2 votes

Well, true.

I'm not a fan of my noob days with the autolock jungle Yi with feral flare, but I do know he's a difficult champion to master. He's not terribly difficult to counter either.

Baron of Bread8 votes

Yi can dodge almost anything with well timed/placed Q's and can prevent crap tons of damage with a good W. I would say that Yas probably does have more outplay potential (mostly through picking a strong battleground for him and going from there), but it isn't a lot more.

ModKnightsKemplar7 votes

Yeah... The problem is with the concept in general. mADCs are ALWAYS going to be feast or famine because they are in melee range. I hear what you're saying, which is that mADCs don't HAVE to be like this if they are designed correctly. But the answer is to hurt their damage potential in exchange for survivability, as you suggest. Also known as bruisers.

mADCs won't work. They should be reworked into bruiser champions if Riot wants them not to be cheesy. It's not, in my opinion, that they are too strong or too weak. It's just that they are cheesy. You can't stop a fed Yasuo, or Fiora, or Yi. They faceroll you with no counterplay every time they get ahead. That's just how those champs work.

Partholonian3 votes

They can often be wrecked by hard CC, because they're squishy; but they also have insane mobility, so it better be Taric .

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

Of course. I'm not trying to imply that if they get ONE kill, they are an unstoppable raid boss already. But your solution points out the fatal flaw even more; if you bring that cc, and you DO catch them out, we're back to a famine state.

So, when playing an mADC, you are either winning with cheese (at least it feels like that to the other team), or you're losing because you're useless. It remains a point to emphasize that this sometimes happens with other positions. If you're up against a fed J4 as a ranged ADC, good luck. You are probably going to be useless, too.

The main difference is that this doesn't ALWAYS happen to ranged ADCs. Sometimes they have a good, even, clean game. If the J4 gets 6 kills top lane and builds full damage, yeah, you'll be useless. But as a ranged carry, your team could at least peel for you in theory, if the J4 weren't so fed. This is not possible for mADCs. They ALWAYS end up in a situation where they crush, or they get crushed.

Jefftiffy2 votes

{quoted}

They can often be wrecked by hard CC, because they're squishy; but they also have insane mobility, so it better be Taric .

Then you remember that Yasuo has windwall which is instant and Yi has Alpha Strike to dodge and Fiora has ult that isn't effected by CC and you cry if they even come in range for the time your CC is down (oh wait they have gapclosers, you cry period and run for your life).

Xemeron7 votes

Because the "doesnt shit himself when behind" came with "goes 1v5 and gets a quadra kill when slightly ahead".

LankPants5 votes

I'd make the argument that Yas's design makes 0 sense from a balance perspective.

They gave him Damage/Utility/Mobility/Durability, something on his kit had to give, Riot nerfed his Durability more than other aspects. While you could nerf his damage as you suggested it probably wouldn't fix his problems, he'd just end up building more like a Jax or Irelia and utilising the high Utility/Durability on his kit along side the fact that Tri and BotRK are amazing single damage items.

Brotha3 votes

Two core items and he can make a come back.

r11na3 votes

Non yasuo player detected.

If you fall behind as yasuo you sometimes (not always) have to completely give up buying damage items because you cannot do shit and die before you can even kill one person.

Your only hope in times like this is to build tank items and hope your team has enough damage and can follow up after the enemy team focusses you when you land a knockup->ulti.

Brotha4 votes

{quoted}

Non yasuo player detected.

If you fall behind as yasuo you sometimes (not always) have to completely give up buying damage items because you cannot do shit and die before you can even kill one person.

Your only hope in times like this is to build tank items and hope your team has enough damage and can follow up after the enemy team focusses you when you land a knockup->ulti.

Noob Yasuo player detected.

If you are behind as Yasuo, really any champion tbh, you should not be the one engaging fights. You have to play passive ,and much like the other assassins, wait for the enemy team to blow cooldowns before you jump in. Yasuo can clean up fairly well when behind because of his chase potential. If you play Yasuo as though you went 7/0 in lane even when yours 0/4 with -30 cs than your enemy laner of course you're going to get blown the hell up.

Troy2426211 votes

Still, I have to ask. Why bother picking him over those other assassins? The ONLY thing he has over them is his utility, and in my mind, that is more advantageous for a tank to have than an assassin. If we were discussing why pick Yasuo over various tanks, then his utility would be a legitimate selling point.

But, alas, we are not, and we are comparing him to other assassins. I didn't pick an assassin for raw utility. I pick them for damage. Other assassins do the job I pick them for better, at the end of the day. That's not to say utility is pointless and that assassins only exist for damage, but a lot of his kit's power is locked into the fact he has this utility, and it benefits an assassin less than it would other roles.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

Hi, Yasuo main here, and I'd like to chime in. I think the OP is partially right; Yasuo is very feast or famine, but only in a 1v1 or assassination context. Compared to the other melee carries, (Fiora, Trynd, Master Yi, Riven, Aatrox) he's definitely the most useful in a teamfight scenario if he's majorly behind. Even if Yasuo is 0/11, he can still throw up a decent windwall to help protect his other carries and he can still CC people if he stays back with his adc and hits the tanks for a bit. The rest of those champs, with the exception of Riven as a CC bot, don't really bring anything to a teamfight when majorly behind except very mediocre damage.

RP Tzuyu1 votes

then don't get to the late game WTF, most of the team fking /ff when Fiora, Tryma, Riven Yi are fed, don't get to the late game, if u pick an early champs, and push and win, u pick lee to win early, not to wait 40 mins and then lose, a fed Yasuo is a late game champ, the "i want to fullbuild my champ and wreck other team"

Minuano3 votes

The problem with the suggestion to remove his crit chance passive is that he effectively has only 1 real damaging ability: Steel Tempest. It's basically a glorified auto attack. Crit chance is the only steroid that can really work with him. Either they'd have to make Steel Tempest ABSURDLY strong to make up for the damage he would lose by removing his crit chance steroid, which would be really unhealthy, (nobody likes champions that only spam 1 ability for all of their damage. NOTE: Cassiopeia) or they would have to give him a different steroid. But his kit doesn't really work well from any other steroid. Attack speed or raw AD wouldn't really fit him thematically or fit in his kit, and there's already a ton of champions with built in attack speed or AD steroids. By giving him something else, it would make him pretty much the same as every other melee carry. Take it from an experienced Yasuo player (look me up if you think I'm bullshitting), I think he's fine where he is now. I think some of the nerfs they gave him in the past were a bit unwarranted at times, but right now he is in a decent spot. His low skill floor oftentimes masks how high his skill cap is. That's why there's a bunch of people who either say he's absurdly strong or ridiculously weak; it just depends on the Yasuo players you see.

Rikari3 votes

Yasuo can fall behind?

Ellphi3 votes

It's been suggested already http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/lBkYPFEW-as-a-plat-1-yasuo-main-with-400-yasuo-games-yasuo-needs-a-damn-rework?sort_type=recent

Rito just don't care :(

YossarianSensei1 votes

It's true, the double crit completely fks with any possibility of balancing his kit.

I don't know what Riot's thinking by doubling a stat that's already multiplicative. With Yas's current power curve, he's either complete deadweight or snowballed beyond comprehension depending on when he finishes his 2 items.

TotalJerk3 votes

The thought occured to me. The reason Yasuo has double crit chance is so that you're forced to build it.

Juggernaut6282 votes

So.... you're saying two items giving your Q 800 damage on a 2 second cooldown is bad? No, it is fucking OP and needs a nerf.

Keevalroy2 votes

He just needs a full rework. The crit passive is idiotic when he already has a refreshing shield, the wind wall is one of the dumbest things to come to a champion kit and should be replaced with...i don't know - anything else, he needs a cooldown on his E, and if his ult is going to give free stats, it should at least proc on knockups instead of displacements.

D1rtFarmer2 votes

They destroyed that great to play yasuo feel... even losing was great fun with yas.. it felt lke you made a mistake.. rather than absolute fate.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

I feel like Yasuo's kit would actually be harder to balance without the double crit passive than it is with it. If you take away his double crit passive, you have to give him something in return. That would generally either be some other way to enhance his damage, or by giving him far, far more durability. The first option is problematic because it is likely to turn him into an unbearably oppressive laner, given that his current laning power is gated by the crit passive that he can't access early in laning. The other option gets you a Yasuo that builds Botrk and then full tank, and if you thought Irelia was stupid, wait until you see bruiser Yasuo.

DisasterSola1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bs7Ky7AB,comment-id=0023,timestamp=2015-05-18T00:40:51.514+0000)

I feel like Yasuo's kit would actually be harder to balance without the double crit passive than it is with it. If you take away his double crit passive, you have to give him something in return. That would generally either be some other way to enhance his damage, or by giving him far, far more durability. The first option is problematic because it is likely to turn him into an unbearably oppressive laner, given that his current laning power is gated by the crit passive that he can't access early in laning. The other option gets you a Yasuo that builds Botrk and then full tank, and if you thought Irelia was stupid, wait until you see bruiser Yasuo.

Q: For 5 seconds, yasuos critical hit rate is increased by 10/12/14/16/18% per stack of whatchamajig.

Edit: But actually, the thing that makes yasuo over powered isnt his double crit (that makes him snowballer, yes, but not OP), Its actually his infinite damage shield.

Nerfing windwall is the ideal "nerf" to yasuo; you dont even have to nerf it into oblivion either. All you have to do is make it so any skill-projectiles which pass through the wind wall have their missile speed reduced by 50%. There. Just like that, yasuo's most toxic feature is removed and those bullshit last second windwalls are non existent.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

I want to know why you want to nerf him in the first place. He's considered by the vast majority of the community to be bad. While I don't think he's horrible, I think he is, at best, average. He's definitely not worth picking by the average player, and he's even only situationally a good pick by good Yasuo players. That sounds like a balanced champion to me.

DisasterSola1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bs7Ky7AB,comment-id=002300000000,timestamp=2015-05-19T20:26:54.896+0000)

I want to know why you want to nerf him in the first place. He's considered by the vast majority of the community to be bad. While I don't think he's horrible, I think he is, at best, average. He's definitely not worth picking by the average player, and he's even only situationally a good pick by good Yasuo players. That sounds like a balanced champion to me.

In my opinion, its because his wind wall is the most frustrating ability in the game that it needs to be changed. Otherwise, yasuo in his current place is good.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

I can think of many abilities far, far more frustrating than wind wall. Annie ult. Azir ult. Cho Scream. Fiddles Fear. Fiora Ult. Fizz everything. Gragas Bump. Irelia Stun. Janna Everything. Kalista passive. Katarina ult. Kennen ult. Leblanc everything. Maokai endless CC chain of death. Morg everything. Nasus Wither. Nautilus everything. Nidlaee everything. Poppy Ult. Rengar Ult. Riven everything. Shaco Invisibility+Blink. Singed everything. Soraka Ult. Swain Ult. Thresh Lantern. Trynd everything. Vayne ult. Vi ult. Vlad Everything.

Minuano1 votes

So your solution to fixing a champion you say is weak is to...gut their steroid? Yeah, ok. LOL

Anonagon5 votes

If you had a brain larger than a peanut you would realize that removing his crit wouldn't be the only change he got, and would be accompanied by reverts to some of his harsher nerfs.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Will you still build Statikk without the double crit passive?

YossarianSensei1 votes

Yes the nigga flies around everywhere. You'd get enough opportunities to proc it.

RP Tzuyu1 votes

those noobs that want to nerf Yasuo passive, pick a counter champion alreadys, no one tells u to pick Nami in lane against Yasuo and then go crying because u lose ur lane... any player that understand the word "counterpick" shouldn't have a problem winning against Yasuo... and win the early, mid game when u can why wait for a fullset Yasuo

Anonagon1 votes

TIL there would be nothing wrong with Vladimir being broken because Fiddlesticks counters him, and I can just play Fiddlesticks every game and never worry about Vlad again.

YossarianSensei1 votes

I still remember playing Yas the first month of his release when nobody knew how to play or build him.

Win or lose it was always fun to play as him because you were never completely useless due to his survivability and utility.

Now he just feels like shyt to play as. There's almost no difference between him and Yi, except you can jungle as Yi and actually be consistently useful.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Yasuo with team build around him is never useless. He is also still more fun than Trynda, Feedora or Yi .

Anonagon1 votes

implying our god yisus isn't fun to play

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Yasuo doesn't have any attack steroid (aside from his crit passive). Trynda has bonus ad and crit passive Fiora - AD, AS, MS; Yi - AD, AS, MS; Jax - AS, bonus magic dmg passive every third hit; Aatrox - AS, bonus damage every 3rd hit.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Anonagon

Quinn is now two years old. Also two years old? Quinn's bugs.
Gameplay235 comments
387
votes
Three trees dedicated to damage, and no Spell DPS Keystone?
Gameplay153 comments
135
votes
In a month, Quinn will be 2 years old. Time to fix her Rito.
Gameplay136 comments
119
votes
How to buff Zed, the most underpowered and hard to play champion in the game
Gameplay128 comments
100
votes
I love that you nerfed Ornn, I hate how you did it.
Gameplay47 comments
72
votes
Not understanding 7.24 Morg changes
Gameplay40 comments
26
votes