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Sunfire Cape should become a pure HP item

Oakleaf Ranger··2 votes·767 views

I think this is a necessary step to balance the power between tanks and bruisers to avoid one type of champion from being over all more dominate than the other in any meta in general.

One of the biggest factors I have seen decide when one class is more favorable than the other is how quickly and consistently can tanks become durable enough to make the threat of bruisers ignorable or a low probability.

Which can usually be summed up as "how quickly can I get bami cinder and armor?"

The health, armor, wave clear, and damage has generally ensured tanks will have a low risk transition into their mid to late game power spikes. And if they get a lead basically guarantees this.

Eliminating the armor aspect (and buffing the health?) of Sunfire Cape would remove a lot of the stat checkyness of playing tanks. Yet still allowing them to grow into fortresses and coexist with bruisers without one being better than the other.

10 Comments

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

One of the biggest factors I have seen decide when one class is more favorable than the other is how quickly and consistently can tanks become durable enough to make the threat of bruisers ignorable or a low probability.

What?

Bruisers shit on Tanks right now.

The health, armor, wave clear, and damage has generally ensured tanks will have a low risk transition into their mid to late game power spikes.

Eliminating the armor aspect (and buffing the health?) of Sunfire Cape would remove a lot of the stat checkyness of playing tanks.

"low risk transition into power spikes"?

"stat checkyness"?

Tanks are useless right now.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

What an excellent response right here.

Yah I didnt say tanks were in a good spot right now. I said one of the main factors that decides that is how quickly they can become durable.

But sure just quote me with no context.

Tanks are going to be buffed or changed. I rather see it done right this time.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Oakleaf Ranger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqAEidZr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T12:05:55.094+0000)

What an excellent response right here.

Yah I didnt say tanks were in a good spot right now. I said one of the main factors that decides that is how quickly they can become durable.

But sure just quote me with no context.

Tanks are going to be buffed or changed. I rather see it done right this time.

But this isn't a buff.

This is a nerf.

By removing Armor, Tanks will have to build another item first against heavy AD champions.

Meanwhile, this opens up Sunfire Cape to Bruisers, meaning it will be an indirect buff for them.

And Bruisers definitely don't need any buffs right now.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Its a net change. Sunfire cape just does too much in its current iteration. The impact it has on whether or not tanks are good is too high.

The change I hope for means it still retains some of the tankiness aspect but doesn't grant you a pass to ignore a lot of damage while being able to dish it out as well.

If someone wants to itemize armor first then the options are there. But there needs to be trade off for it. Weaker wave clear and dps is fair trade off imo.

The change also doesn't make the item anymore appealing to bruisers and very likely would push it away from them more. Its just health (regen?) and dps aura vs health and combat stats. Not something that is going to be more useful than the current bruiser favored items.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Oakleaf Ranger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqAEidZr,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T13:04:55.353+0000)

Sunfire cape just does too much in its current iteration.

...How exactly?

It gives Armor, health, and a fairly negligible passive when it comes to fighting against champions.

That's it. That's 3 things.

Let's take something like Duskblade.

  1. Gives damage.

  2. Gives CDR.

  3. Gives Armor Pen.

  4. Gives a slow.

  5. Removes the need to buy a sweeping lens.

How does Sunfire Cape "do too much in its current iteration" compared to something like Duskblade?

The impact it has on whether or not tanks are good is too high.

So your logic on an item being strong on a tanks, which are struggling right now, is to make the item worse?

The change I hope for means it still retains some of the tankiness aspect but doesn't grant you a pass to ignore a lot of damage while being able to dish it out as well.

What do you even mean?

You're making it sound like Sunfire Cape gives 70% damage reduction and deals 1000 damage every second.

Almost every single Bruiser takes Conqueror and build Black Cleaver first item. That 60 Armor is going to be pretty useless.

And the damage Sunfire Cape does is only really noticeable when you're standing in minions.

Have you ever killed someone with Sunfire Cape? I don't think so.

If someone wants to itemize armor first then the options are there. But there needs to be trade off for it. Weaker wave clear and dps is fair trade off imo.

Again, you're making it sound like it's dealing upwards of Lux ultimate amounts of damage.

The change also doesn't make the item anymore appealing to bruisers and very likely would push it away from them more. Its just health (regen?) and dps aura vs health and combat stats. Not something that is going to be more useful than the current bruiser favored items.

A lot of Bruisers build Titanic Hydra, which scales off of health.

If Sunfire Cape ends up getting 500-600 health to compensate for lack of Armor, on top of what you claim to be such an unfair passive, they're probably going to buy it.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqAEidZr,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T12:09:30.425+0000)

But this isn't a buff.

This is a nerf.

By removing Armor, Tanks will have to build another item first against heavy AD champions.

Meanwhile, this opens up Sunfire Cape to Bruisers, meaning it will be an indirect buff for them.

And Bruisers definitely don't need any buffs right now.

he means to change sunfire cape to be able to balance tanks with it out of the equation as a 1 item pickup for all their needs.

it does increase their offense, defense, and waveclear. most tanks in the top lane rush sunfire cape as their first item. not just for the waveclear, but also for their ability to trade.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqAEidZr,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-01T13:12:49.815+0000)

he means to change sunfire cape to be able to balance tanks with it out of the equation as a 1 item pickup for all their needs.

it does increase their offense, defense, and waveclear. most tanks in the top lane rush sunfire cape as their first item. not just for the waveclear, but also for their ability to trade.

So Tanks just aren't allowed to have any items that are good on them?

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqAEidZr,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-01T13:18:48.613+0000)

So Tanks just aren't allowed to have any items that are good on them?

they are supposed to have items that are good on them, but he wants to delay their trading potential in lane a bit.

he didnt say anything about nerfing sunfire cape in overall stats, but replace that 60 armor with more health instead to make it less efficient as a first item and the same when paired with other defensive items.

the problem is, that when a lot of tanks like Shen Poppy Ornn got sunfire cape as their first item in the past, they started to beat fighters pretty heavily in lane trades.

sure, tanks arent good now. but riot is looking into nerfing conqueror and buffing tanks overall. whats going to stop the switch from flipping around and instead of figthers and skirmishers being dominant, tanks become dominant again? the ideal goal should be that they all have a place in top lane.

personally, i think the problem is that riot overloaded tank kits with too much % health damage. tanks being unkillable and having waveclear isnt the issue. sunfire cape combined with their base damage is usually too much.

poppy q, ornns w or shens q deal a shitload of damage early on.

its that they deal too much base damage, because riot gave tanks enough of it to kill each other.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqAEidZr,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-01T13:26:00.815+0000)

they are supposed to have items that are good on them, but he wants to delay their trading potential in lane a bit.

But why not nerf the aura, then? It's not like 60 Armor is a lot of trading potential, given every Bruiser runs Conqueror and rushes Black Cleaver.

he didnt say anything about nerfing sunfire cape in overall stats, but replace that 60 armor with more health instead to make it less efficient as a first item and the same when paired with other defensive items.

But we already have big health items like item 3083 and item 3022

Besides, what else are Tanks going to build as their first item, then? Sunfire Cape is really one of the only choices, besides something like Iceborn Gauntlet.

the problem is, that when a lot of tanks like Shen Poppy Ornn got sunfire cape as their first item in the past, they started to beat fighters pretty heavily in lane trades.

sure, tanks arent good now. but riot is looking into nerfing conqueror and buffing tanks overall. whats going to stop the switch from flipping around and instead of figthers and skirmishers being dominant, tanks become dominant again? the ideal goal should be that they all have a place in top lane.

I fail to see how 60 Armor makes the big difference.

personally, i think the problem is that riot overloaded tank kits with too much % health damage. tanks being unkillable and having waveclear isnt the issue. sunfire cape combined with their base damage is usually too much.

its that they deal too much base damage, because riot gave tanks enough of it to kill each other.

I'm inclined to agree. Tanks have way too much damage on their own.

It's still just sad that Sunfire Cape has to lose it's defensive capabilities, rather than just nerf the tanks themselves.

Oleandervine1 votes

No. I don't think this is a good change. I think this overburdens tanks a bit too much in terms of build path, and reduces their end game tankiness to a large extent, and it also makes Sunfire suddenly VERY appealing to a lot of other classes, that would like the straight HP and waveclear. I don't like tank metas, but you know what? Tank metas are a helluva lot easier to cope with than the pop-like-a-zit assassin or ADC metas.

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