Making the null magic mantle 500 gold was a bad decision

allthemuslims·Feb 10, 2015·71 votes·3,898 views

I am reminded of the fact that certain matchups are now impossible without specialized rune pages every time I see a vladimir in this new season. It used to be that when I played a tank top lane I could start with some MR build with hp pots, HP runes and I could lane without getting quarter chunked by a level 2 q from Vladimir (or seriously chunked by Teemo, but he is a less extreme example). Making MR impossible to buy at the start of the game makes AP champions in the top lane even harder to deal with. My question is why did they do it?

51 Comments

KingsgraveFeb 10, 20159 votes

Reduce it to 350g so we can buy item 1033 item 2003 at lvl 1 to deal with AP Tops: Vladimir Teemo Ryze Akali Lissandra DrMundo Elise Gragas Cassiopeia Kassadin Kennen Nidalee Singed Swain Rumble

Honestly all of these characters can start Cloth 5 to deal with many AD tops, why can't we have something to deal with the APs? There are just as many AP top laners as there are AD top laners nowadays. There needs to be more options for us to deal with them.

This would hopefully lower item 3155 to 1300g and item 3156 to 3050g which would be a great buff and allow the items to be a lot more useful in general. They should probably keep item 3211 at 1200g though.

APs get item 3191 for 1200g, why can't we have the AD version of that at an affordable price?

youngjake93Feb 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Reduce it to 350g so we can buy at lvl 1 to deal with AP Tops:

Honestly all of these characters can start Cloth 5 to deal with many AD tops, why can't we have something to deal with the APs? There are just as many AP top laners as there are AD top laners nowadays. There needs to be more options for us to deal with them.

This would hopefully lower to 1300g and to 3000g which would be a great buff and allow the items to be a lot more useful in general. They should probably keep at 1200g though.

APs get for 1200g, why can't we have the AD version of that at an affordable price?

I mean... they answered you when they implemented the change. There is a class of AP champions with low ratios that rely almost entirely on building mpen to deal damage whereas all AD champions have at least one 1.0 AD ratio(their auto attack). They made MR harder to begin itemizing against because flat mpen means less when the opponent has MR, but MR is still as efficient as before to build. Building mpen is supposed to give you an early power spike instead of just being pointless because the whole team can invalidate your build with 300g(ADCs will sometimes pick up a mantle at even the 500g price mid-game if an APC is fed). I believe I saw a buff to spectre's cowl went to the PBE, so itemizing MR will be even more rewarding, but I doubt they want to ruin the potential of champions that are supposed to be lane bullies or have to build flat mpen just because you want all lanes to be easy starting at level 1.

Cia Is My WaifuFeb 10, 201524 votes

APs get for 1200g, why can't we have the AD version of that at an affordable price?

Because you have autoattacks. AP's autoattacks only get stronger via the arcane blade mastery (5%) That's 50 at 1000 AP. AD scales 1:1 on for autoattacks, As far as AD casters go, they're getting a much better deal. All of your spells are down? Start auto attacking. That 200 AD you built is still doing a lot for you even without your skills.

King OdinFeb 10, 20155 votes

Exactly what I was thinking. People like Garen with already high stats would take no damage again AP Laners as once you negate their AP they have nothing to compensate them early games except 50+ AA's.

A Slime AppearsFeb 10, 20154 votes

Because melee champs get in melee range of Liss/Ryze/Nid/Etc so often right? You either have an instant gap closer or you are someone's bitch for 20 minutes.

DrCyanideFeb 11, 20153 votes

Because Liss/Ryze/Nid/Etc are the power split pushers, right? Oh, wait, that'd be the AD tops.

So while AD Melee's suffer throught being pushed around by AP Ranged for the first half of the game, AP Ranged champions are being told to go back to top lane to hold off your split push for the second half of the game. Balanace.

What Is SmiteFeb 11, 20151 votes

Fiora Uh did you say bullied around? Nah I feel like taking the fight to you. You stunned me? Well it's a good thing that I don't have a second gap closer.... Oh wait 4s window on my second Lunge Cast while your CC doesn't even last as long.

Side note: Fiora was used as a Mid-Laner at some point so mages are not much of an issue if you push their weak early games

A Slime AppearsFeb 11, 20151 votes

Immobile melees are forced to do that because their ability to team fight is unreliable. Meanwhile AP tops go into team fights and slap their keyboards and do a ton of AoE damage AND get an ezmode laning phase thanks to how easily they can abuse those melees. Balanced.

AuryielFeb 10, 201513 votes

So your solution is basically make it so harassing you is a complete waste of time for most AP champions?

Please, no.

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So your solution is basically make it so harassing you is a complete waste of time for most AP champions?

Please, no.

ITT: Being able to lane against someone that scales twice as hard as you is unfair

AuryielFeb 10, 20158 votes

Completely nullifying lane interaction is most definitely NOT a solution.

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Completely nullifying lane interaction is most definitely NOT a solution.

10-15 MR and 5 pots nullifies interaction now? Cloth armor must be awful to play against then

inb4 "mages are literally unable to autoattack early game so the MR stops them!!!"

AuryielFeb 11, 20153 votes

Btw, the suggestion I responded to was lower it's cost

That's 25 MR + a shit load of pots

If you can't understand how mages are unable to deal with that unlike assassins and bruisers dealing with cloth 5, I can't help you

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Btw, the suggestion I responded to was lower it's cost

That's 25 MR + a shit load of pots

If you can't understand how mages are unable to deal with that unlike assassins and bruisers dealing with cloth 5, I can't help you

And the one I responded to was lowering the cost to 300 and MR to 10-15, as 25 MR for 300g would obviously be retarded

Captain AishiFeb 10, 20159 votes

item 1054 should work relatively well against vlad now that it blocks 8 damage everytime he Qs you on top of also blocking the damage from his autoattacks I mean it works wonders against ryze and has always been decent against teemo since he always autoattacks to harass you

KingsgraveFeb 10, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tpgqVzaY,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-02-10T12:22:31.559+0000)

should work relatively well against vlad now that it blocks 8 damage everytime he Qs you on top of also blocking the damage from his autoattacks I mean it works wonders against ryze and has always been decent against teemo since he always autoattacks to harass you

Currently bugged, the block doesnt work.

qetzelFeb 10, 20155 votes

That isn't really a good argument for changing MR though. When it is fixed then the new itemisation would be far too strong.

Also, doesn't it? I suppose I don't play toplane much, so I wouldn't know.

OblongOtterFeb 11, 20151 votes

It only blocks auto attacks.

ErockandrollFeb 10, 20155 votes

Have we forgotten that every champion starts with More MR than they Do Armor?

EndlessSorcererFeb 10, 20155 votes

Even when Null Magic Mantle was 400g, Crystalline Flask and 4 Health Potions was still the better sustain option, especially if you ran MR runes. That hasn't really changed.

OleandervineFeb 10, 20154 votes

This is another flaw of Riot changing the items and then reverting it, but leaving the changes live. The price was jacked up because the MR went up to compensate for the removal of the Negatron Cloak. When the cloak came back, nothing changed back, so we are saddled with expensive defensive items despite Riot's claim that they want defense to be easily accessible.

ThryaleFeb 10, 20154 votes

douchebag vlad here! and I am really taking advantage of this fact by running 20 mr pen runes. Combine that with sorc boots and haunting guise, and you get some hefty mr pen that all but forces the enemy team to heavily invest in mr if they don't want to get chunked to 1/3rd hp with just 2 spells. ;) I'm evil.

SummonerSquidFeb 10, 20153 votes

Why not reduce the cost to 300 gold and the magic resistance it gives to +15 to match item 1029 ? This would make build paths more consistent.

youngjake93Feb 10, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Why not reduce the cost to 300 gold and the magic resistance it gives to +15 to match ? This would make build paths more consistent.

Because armor and mr are different stats. APCs typically deal burst and once you have a little MR to survive the burst you can invalidate them completely with return sustained damage. Also, mpen is a viable build path for low ratio mages. Low ratio mages would no longer be viable with easier to buy starter mr since flat mpen does a lot less against targets with mr. Not to mention, MR runes give you a lot more than Armor runes and champs have higher base MR than Armor already.

SummonerSquidFeb 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because armor and mr are different stats. APCs typically deal burst and once you have a little MR to survive the burst you can invalidate them completely with return sustained damage. Also, mpen is a viable build path for low ratio mages. Low ratio mages would no longer be viable with easier to buy starter mr since flat mpen does a lot less against targets with mr. Not to mention, MR runes give you a lot more than Armor runes and champs have higher base MR than Armor already.

If you lower the amount of MR it gives, it won't invalidate them. Even if there was a +10 MR item that builds into item 1033 it would be better than the current state of MR. My gripe is that magic resistance is not accessible and armor is very accessible. You can sit on a item 1029 as almost every role and eventually build it into something. It's much more difficult to sit on a . This forces you to either build MR or not, which ultimately means you have to delay your build in order to itemize against certain champs. Building MR over AP or AD interferes with certain champions power spikes, which ultimately discourages champions from certain roles.

You bring up a good point though. If you were able to have too much MR early on, it would make burst mages suffer until they got multiple items. My point is that expensive items need accessible build paths in order to make them an option.

If I decide that I want to split my build between MR and AP in the early game, I should be able to build that appropriately. Having a cheaper, less MR-granting item allows for more flexibility in that respect. Plus, Annie is still going to murder you once she gets her ultimate.

youngjake93Feb 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If you lower the amount of MR it gives, it won't invalidate them. Even if there was a +10 MR item that builds into it would be better than the current state of MR. My gripe is that magic resistance is not accessible and armor is very accessible. You can sit on a as almost every role and eventually build it into something. It's much more difficult to sit on a . This forces you to either build MR or not, which ultimately means you have to delay your build in order to itemize against certain champs. Building MR over AP or AD interferes with certain champions power spikes, which ultimately discourages champions from certain roles.

You bring up a good point though. If you were able to have too much MR early on, it would make burst mages suffer until they got multiple items. My point is that expensive items need accessible build paths in order to make them an option.

If I decide that I want to split my build between MR and AP in the early game, I should be able to build that appropriately. Having a cheaper, less MR-granting item allows for more flexibility in that respect. Plus, is still going to murder you once she gets her ultimate.

+10 MR at the standard 30 MR against Sorc Boots provides an 8% damage reduction. +10 MR against Sorc Boots+Haunting Guise provides a 9% damage reduction. +10 MR against Needlessly Large Rod only provides a 7% damage reduction. Easier to access MR hurts mpen builds more than AP builds and that was one of the main reasons Riot listed when they made the change. It isn't impossible to build MR on an APC, but it isn't super easy for this reason.

2pudge1cupFeb 10, 20153 votes

I agree that 500 is a tad excessive. 400-440 would be better IMO.

However, you have to keep in mind that MR and armor can't be treated the same in the early game. The base MR on everyone is 30. I can't think of a single champ that has base armor of 30. Then it takes a number of levels until the two are able to reach each other on a melee champ.

You have to keep in mind the ripple effect of say a Zed (or any assassin) vs. Lissandra (or any ap based mage) in mid lane. It would be an even worse mismatch than it already is if the assassin could open with MR.

SerageFeb 10, 20153 votes

We dont have enough FULL AD teams already. Lets give early MR!!

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 10, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serage Akali Top,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tpgqVzaY,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-02-10T19:14:38.541+0000)

We dont have enough FULL AD teams already. Lets give early MR!!

All none of them outside garbage Elo yes

Youll notice Azir/Rumble/Kat/LB/Xerath/Liss/Gnar are picked every game for a reason

Miku Lv101Feb 10, 20152 votes

Then get specialized rune pages. The game is balanced assuming you have them anyways. If you're facing an AP, you should have more MR on your rune page.

Meep ManFeb 11, 20152 votes

Rumble "I dont know what you guys are talking about. This is a good change."

pE4CbxDPQOFeb 10, 20151 votes

Yeah I have MR quints now from the change, for when I run into LB.

MadraFeb 10, 20151 votes

The problem with the direct MR to Armor comparison is that only some champions get MR per level; and with the exception of only one, all champions get Armor per level. Cheap and easy magic resist isn't really how LoL was designed. That's part of what makes the Locket such an impressive item. The extra cost on Hexdrinker is necessary because of how strong the shield is, especially in the early game. I think 500 is too high, but 440 is the lowest that I would consider.

Silents429Feb 10, 20151 votes

If you are a top lane tank don't you have more then enough MR from runes and masteries? I normally do.

5P4RK4Feb 10, 20151 votes

Who are you playing as? And yes rune pages are very important, i wouldnt run scaling MR into an AP champ, thats just asking to get harassed early game. Welcome to level 30+, you are gonna want more than 2 pages.

GuiltyGeckoFeb 10, 20151 votes

True. Since I play Cho top, I too used to do this. Because cho has a heal, the MR from mantle helped with keeping up my effective HP. Now I just have to start with flask :/

5P4RK4Feb 10, 20151 votes

I main cho and don't have any trouble with AP champs. 21/0/9 masteries usually.

Start ring / 2 pots on cho vs ap champs. Flask is way overkill. just run flat MR glyphs its more than enough. Max W, and you should be able to outsustain their mana pretty easily. You want to dish out just as much as you take (or likely way more) and sustain it back. If you just try to tank / sustain with flask you're gonna have a bad time.

GuiltyGeckoFeb 10, 20151 votes

Oh I have no trouble against AP champs with flask start, I just preferred the mantle start.

PhifeFeb 10, 20151 votes

start ruby crystal @ 400G get 2 pots and go b and get nullmagic mantle when you can.

junglerboy16Feb 11, 20151 votes

they did it because they removed Negatron cloak. It made perfect sense. The only stupid thing is that they have since then re-added Negatron cloak and the cost change only makes it impossible to start with that item anymore.

Jolly RogeredFeb 11, 20151 votes

Yea, what is the deal with not having an early game MR item? It makes absolutely no sense.

DengedenFeb 11, 20151 votes

Meanwhile the APs: item 3070 Mana regen nerf Why no resourceless/energy nerfs??? In all seriousness, level 2 chunks is the story of soloQ top lane. summoner 14 already makes sure of that and I see no reason why champions shouldn't be able to force you out early without it. Or maybe I just like pressure and diversity. You can always just control the wave level 1 with item 2041 and hang back at/near level 2.

blueberrypancakeFeb 11, 20151 votes

So mages can actually run out of mana. It gets annoying after a while.

ABlueQuakerFeb 11, 20151 votes

idk why it's so hard for Riot to mirror items.

Null Magic Mantle = 500g, Cloth Armor = 300g. Same deal when you compare Rylai's and Frozen Mallet - Mallt costs more and is inexplicably more defensive-based.

TsundayFeb 11, 20151 votes

You only get a limited amount of magic damage in a fight. Once your abilites are exhausted you play the CD game. With AD champions you get infinite AA damage. I can hit you for over 600 with a 1 second CD AA for practically nothing late game, or I can hit your for 600 with a 8 second CD mana costing ability. It's a lot more balanced for MR to be more expensive because it means that Mages don't get screwed over by their limited kit damage.

DryditchFeb 11, 20151 votes

Honestly, I'd be fine with Null Magic being 450 or 440, or even with there being a Doran's cloak or something to help counter early AP champions.

I can't tell you how aggravating it is to play Malphite and then get completely chunked by a vlad or an akali at lv1 with one skill because I can't have that extra bit of MR to help me mitigate their damage. By the time I get a Null Magic Mantle, my lane opponent already has boots and some kind of AP item.

GafugarionFeb 11, 20151 votes

Probably shouldn't blind pick a tank going into top. Do something safe like Liss or Kass if you dunno what's what.