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Riot Games: There's too much upfront burst and we're looking into toning it down...

ExpStealer··44 votes·15,401 views

Also Riot Games:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kevlGai9kQ

Like, seriously, I get that MF can be bursty, but how long will it take you to actually ensure she only has access to that burst via her ultimate OR if she lands her second Q properly? She was my premade, spammed surrender all game cause they were beating us in the early game and then out of a sudden she began to singlehandedly carry the entire team to victory, because what? She two-shots the squishies. And let me tell you why:

She uses a Double Up and then a basic attack. With the 380 AD she had they do the following damage:

Love Tap: 380 bonus damage Double Up: 100 + 380, for a total of 480 damage Basic Attack: 380 x2 (it also was a crit), a total of 760 damage Dark Harvest with 360 stacks: 80 + 360 + 72 damage for a total of 512 damage

380 + 480 + 760 + 512 = 2132 physical damage in total with some converted to True Damage. She also had 21 + 18 = 39 Lethality, reducing Jinx to less than 50 Armor from 79. In other words, due to Dark Harvest and her passive, Miss Fortune does three basic attacks at the very same time worth of damage, with 1 of 3 critically striking for double damage.

This here, I believe, is a very good example why a big chunk of the Marksman roster "sucks" at the moment, aside from everything else, but let's not divert the discussion. Like, when are they going to fix this? And how? It's not only the Runes that are problematic; for some champions like MF they also have to find a way to limit the burst they can spew out and/or make sure they only can access that burst through hard to land abilities. Not just by basic attacking and point-and-click Qing. And tone down runes' damage by A LOT.

EDIT: Miss Fortune's build at that point was the following: item 3031 + item 3087 + item 3147 + item 3142 + item 3036 + item 3044

62 Comments

Hayaishi32 votes

Tbh i've no idea how Riot has allowed MF to keep this ridiculous damage for so long. This is something that would've been nerfed in a week back in the day.

ExpStealer2 votes

To me this up there is Irelia hotfix level emergency on the brokenness scale.

(Irelia got hotfixed on day one because of her scaling being way too high IIRC)

The Oasis1 votes

Yeah. Now she requires a triforce instead of just a sheen to 1v3.

ExpStealer1 votes

Irelia at least requires some skill to pull off that 1v3. MF would go poof kill, poof double kill, poof triple kill.

HeyBigGuyHeyBudd18 votes

Made a similar comment on another thread. The free damage from runes is disgusting and adds to the disgusting snowballing of lanes early game.

ModKnightsKemplar12 votes

That's pretty disgusting.

I have seen a lot of people complain about damage, but I hadn't seen anything that crazy yet. That's a quicker deletion than most assassins are capable of.

5050BS6 votes

..... Do you not play the game? Aatrox Akali Azir Brand Diana Evelynn Ezreal Fiora Garen Graves Irelia Jax Jhin Kaisa Katarina Kayn Khazix Leblanc MasterYi MissFortune Nasus Nocturne Pyke Quinn Rengar Riven Shaco Talon Tryndamere Twitch Vayne Vi Warwick MonkeyKing Xayah XinZhao Yasuo Zed Zoe

All often 100-0 in 1-2 spells

ExpStealer2 votes

I've played against many incredibly fed assassins and none of them were able to kill me that fast unless they were 10k Gold ahead. The point is MF killed Jinx literally instantly. Have you seen anyone who's as fed as their opponent kill them in 0.01 seconds? Coz I haven't.

VonToothskie4 votes

{quoted}

I've played against many incredibly fed assassins and none of them were able to kill me that fast unless they were 10k Gold ahead. The point is MF killed Jinx literally instantly. Have you seen anyone who's as fed as their opponent kill them in 0.01 seconds? Coz I haven't.

I main support tanks and i can attest that 1000 plus damage per a hit through armor/MR is normal late game now for many champs these days. The quick draw "always crit" garbage has got to go

floo2 votes

Xayah? Not unless she's with a support or fed already.. like any other adc.

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

Maybe I just don't feed them in my games :P

Jokes aside, part of what amazes me about the clip results because MF does it from range, and her bullet travel times work so that they both hit jinx within tenths of a second of each other. Like, yeah a fed Rengar approaches that deletion speed, but you at least see him jump out at you first. This felt even more sudden than that because it was less telegraphed.

PowerSlave9938 votes

item 3147 item 3142 item 3095 boop beep boop, main damage source.

Ravenborn5 votes

As a MF main I hate this, it makes the match really, really boring without any strategic thinking except going in and getting a double with 1 Q it doesn't have counterplay at the slightest and it feels awful to play and play against, the truth is tho that the same can be said about any kind of lethality (ab)user, this isn't a Miss Fortune problem, it's how many external sources of damage actually exist in the game in general, Duskblade, too much true damage, shiv, the armor pen, dark harvest etc. She was in a fine/balanced spot until the new runes and lethality items hit, she is a champion that wins by game length and her weakness is the early game something that all these cheap items and runes covered that for her.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

A reasonable main? Where's the rest of people like you! I concur it's the combination of items and reworked masteries adding too much synergistic damage everywhere, shoving out strategy.

Got a hypothetical question for you though, what if critical hits and armor penetration were made mutually exclusive (via unique passive)? I could see it making some marksmen more polarized one way or the other, but some hybridized ones would play either way; however it could make tanks too strong in some cases. Just a thought experiment lol.

Summonah123694 votes

There's no counterplay.

Automated Riven4 votes

It's not MF tho. It's the runes.

ExpStealer4 votes

If we exclude Dark Harvest's damage she still does a little over 2000 (before I fixed my maths) premitigation physical damage with everything else. The only other rune that can potentially give her too much AD (and therefore damage) is Gathering Storm, but I don't remember if she had it.

Edit: My maths were slightly off, so your point checks out to some extent. I'd still argue that ~1500 damage is still too much for a primarily DPS champion though.

Automated Riven2 votes

She does a fair amount of damage through love taps. However if MF has 360 ad she has very low dps. Because she won't have any attack speed. So her first attack will hurt but the rest of her autos will mostly tickle.

(Also how did she crit?)

ExpStealer2 votes

item 3031 + item 3087 = 60% Critical Strike Chance and she hadn't upgraded her boots, so another 35% Attack Speed potentially. Besides, we're talking about upfront burst. Not her overall damage.

Automated Riven2 votes

If she had that how did she have 360 ad?

ExpStealer3 votes

Eyeball Collection, Celerity and Gathering Storm. Plus Duskblade, Ghostblade and Lord Dominic's Regards.

Zeromatsu3 votes

mf has an attack speed steroid. And with that + boots she has easily 1,3+ attack speed.

ExpStealer2 votes

With W active she had almost 1.8 Attack Speed without boots because she didn't upgrade them all game for some reason. So yeah, she did have quite the Attack Speed nonetheless.

DeusVult4 votes

Burst is very high. But I hate to say this, but this case is INCREDIBLY cherry picked. MF is the burst ADC, compared to others who excel at DPS, objectives or tank shredding, MF excels at a quick burst through her skills and her double tap mechanic.

She uses Q and an auto, as OP says. So she gets off a full damage Q, which crits. An auto, which crits. And on top of all of this, she is full build, gets a passive proc, and a dark harvest proc with 360 stacks. 360 stacks. MF is fed as a motherfucker.

IDK where OP gets the 10-12% of damage converting to true damage, if MF is running DH then she cannot have true damage conversion. She is also building lethality, and Jynx isnt building any real dedicated armor items.

So a full build ADC whose niche is being a burst ADC with less overall DPS than other ADCs, and who has built specifically to kill someone with little armor, 2 shots a champ that is building no bonus health or armor and has no frontline with her. Burst is high, but in reality there is nothing wrong with this scenario

CHERRY PICKED

ExpStealer5 votes

You're wrong. Firstly, her Double Up doesn't ever critically strike on the first target. It only does on the second one either because the first one died or through critical strike chance. Secondly the true damage conversion comes from her build - she bought Statikk Shiv and Infinity Edge. Thirdly - MF is in her very core a Marksman and that is a DPS champion. DPS champions can never be allowed to have that kind of burst. Through a successful second Q that crits - yeah. But just point and click? FUCK NO

Simple Jax3 votes

I understand your point here, but also disagree. I like that not every marksman is DPS, as jhin is my favorite marksman, there is no fix to make him DPS, and I also enjoy being able to change up my play style within a lane. When I see an MF I counter with jhin, when I see a jhin I counter with Lucian, so on and so forth. I believe this is the beauty of the game. Of you get countered play safe, don't be the jinx that feeds mf and ruins it for the whole team.

ExpStealer3 votes

I'm OK with MF and a few others being bursty. But point and click? Nope. Just... No. Jhin is limited to an incredibly slow Attack Speed, just like Graves, so it would make sense for his basic attacks to hurt a lot. And Lucian, to be bursty, needs to actually combo his abilities and his passive. He doesn't just go boop - kill; boop - kill.

Selec3 votes

I used to ban her cause she's actually really strong.

And I do not only mean being able to 0.1s one squishy, I mean when she does her first back and comes with the first lethality item, her Q's will start removing half of your HP if you got hit by Dark Harvest and Second Q.

Dodge Q? Oh yea, but the mana cost isn't even that high for her, and she can basically spam it. You can dodge 3-4, but if she lands just a single one, you're pretty much screwed.

They'll probably look for a rework idk.

EDIT: I see some ppl agreeing that there should be some marksman that are not only DPSing. Well that, what it shouldn't exist is the fact that you can be deleted without reaction time. In this clip, that Jinx is obv mispositioning, but she should be able to at least flash away when her HP bar starts coming down. Instead, she literally disappeared. This is not only a MF problem, it's present in most of assasins right now.

Shablagoo3 votes

Funny thing is people complain about assassins doing a ton of burst, but at least they have to use there entire kit to burst you down, this is assuming they arent insanely ahead, If they miss a part of their dmg they wont oneshot you. But MF has been oneshotting people with DH with and auto plus q for a few patches now. Even I am starting to abuse her, but if it isnt assassins it isnt op.

Dorans Pants1 votes

{quoted}

Funny thing is people complain about assassins doing a ton of burst, but at least they have to use there entire kit to burst you down, this is assuming they arent insanely ahead, If they miss a part of their dmg they wont oneshot you. But MF has been oneshotting people with DH with and auto plus q for a few patches now. Even I am starting to abuse her, but if it isnt assassins it isnt op.

the main difference is that mf has to run up at the enemy, while assassins can engage from everywhere. Also, most assassination patterns are just as foolproof as mf´s Q AA. LB, Talon, kayn, khazix, rengar etc.. all don´t have to hit shit.

Shablagoo1 votes

So Mf's isnt fool proof? In fact what is the counterplay to mf in the first place other then not ever being anywhere near her? If a assassin messes up there combo they wont kill you unless you completely fuck up. Mf can't mess her combo because its two on point-click acions. Also regardless the problem isnt the fact that you can see one and can't its the fact that the burst is way to high? How does being able to see her negate that? So you can run away? And not even fight her?

Dorans Pants3 votes

{quoted}

So Mf's isnt fool proof? In fact what is the counterplay to mf in the first place other then not ever being anywhere near her? If a assassin messes up there combo they wont kill you unless you completely fuck up. Mf can't mess her combo because its two on point-click acions. Also regardless the problem isnt the fact that you can see one and can't its the fact that the burst is way to high? How does being able to see her negate that? So you can run away? And not even fight her?

No, I didn´t say mf wasn´t foolproof. I argued that the assassination patterns of most assassins are just as foolproof as hers is. You are repeating that assassins can´t kill anyone when they miss their entire combo, but completely ignore the fact that most assassins use point and click abilities as well. Unless you are playing against zed there is barely anything to dodge in an assassin´s kit.

Khazix aoe jump, point and click Q, E is guaranteed to hit due to it being aoe and him standing right next to his target Ekko E is point and click, Q is guaranteed to hit, AA never misses the only thing you play around is your W and R Talon Q is point and click, W and R are aoe MonkeyKing Q and E are point and click and R is aoe

and here are some who have only one thing they can fuck up

Diana can miss her q Rengar can miss his bola Leblanc can miss her chain the list goes on

so how do you actually manage to miss your whole combo like a Velkoz could?

you are also completely downplaying how valuable mobility is, which besides her ms boost mf doesn´t have.

Also, why is this a problem specific to mf and not burst in general?

Draven Kaisa Quinn would all burst more or less the same way

the matter of the fact is that there is too much dmg across the board. Everything one-shots nowadays and a mf twoshotting another squishy, who is one level below and who knows how ahead that mf was in gold, is simply not surprising to me anymore especially when mf has always been about upfront burst and her ult and never dps.

Shablagoo1 votes

Why are you even bringing this up in the first place? Is it not the case people are complaining about dmg being to high in the game? Are people not complaining that burst is to much and and should be toned down? Assassins have been dealt with, they have had electro nerfed, sudden impact nerfed, duskblade nerfed twice, and stromrazor so they wont build it alone anymore. Assassins dmg has been dealt with, but the min another champions burst is talked about,it is "well assassins burst is high". Why should mf be able to do what most assassin where able to do a few patches ago if burst is a problem? Shouldnt we reduce all classes upfront burst. It doesnt matter whether they are assassins or not if they are burst so hard no one can react then they should have it reduced.

The problem is the burst, regardless, and guess what the burst problem of assassins has been dealt with now its others turn.

Sire Hippington2 votes

math is slightly off, her Q can't crit on the primary target, only on the bounce.

Still to much burst though...

ExpStealer2 votes

My bad, will fix that.

stone the blacks2 votes

also riot: item 3095 item 3147 item 3087 item 3078

ExpStealer7 votes

https://i.imgflip.com/2hlih4.jpg

I mean, what do you want to be? An ADC, assassin or bruiser? Make up your mind already! Besides... Before lethality and the rune changes such a build would be useless as it practically gives you random stats intended for completely different playstyles.

mack91122 votes

That is such a dumb clip it's like late game of course mf will do that to one of the most fragile champions in the game.

ExpStealer3 votes

Almost 1.5k damage from a point-and-click ability and DH. From a MARKSMAN. If that's a normal thing for you... I just... Just... I have no words xD

SenorBobbers2 votes

Sorry unfortunately its too late, Riot already lowered the damage on runes (only to pump more damage back into other champions, what?) so they're going to use that as an excuse to think the damage in the game is now fine.

VonToothskie2 votes

Yeah no single attack should deal 2000 damage, but its pretty normal with the damage creep now. The whole system needs a flat nerf

Dorans Pants2 votes

to be fair upfront burst is all she brings to the table even if it´s too much right now. On the other hand, what doesn´t one-shot a jinx nowadays?

ExpStealer2 votes

What doesn't one-shot her? Any non-burst ADC and tank/bruiser.

Dorans Pants3 votes

{quoted}

What doesn't one-shot her? Any non-burst ADC and tank/bruiser.

I bet there are some, but then I think about champs like Malphite Rammus Jax Yasuo IreliaSion who regularly run over adcs. Granted it takes them 1-2 seconds but the fact that we are now comparing high burst to ludicrous high burst is already sad considering we are talking about tanks here.

ExpStealer1 votes

True.

DarukongSr3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dorans Pants,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tortTNQa,comment-id=001500000000,timestamp=2018-09-10T14:23:47.976+0000)

I bet there are some, but then I think about champs like Malphite Rammus Jax Yasuo IreliaSion who regularly run over adcs. Granted it takes them 1-2 seconds but the fact that we are now comparing high burst to ludicrous high burst is already sad considering we are talking about tanks here.

Irelia and Yas aren't tank, and rammus and sion "burst" are insanely conditional and generally requires soon to build offensively with lethality.

Pika Fox1 votes

And? A glass cannon did damage? Oh noes!

ExpStealer3 votes

You don't even get it, do you :D

Pika Fox1 votes

Nothing to get. Glass cannon does damage. Water is wet.

TheSymbolÔfPeace3 votes

But water isn't wet 🤔.

Wetness- the ability of a liquid to adhere to the surface of a solid

You done goofed kid.

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