This is the problem with Veigar

Hyrum Graff·Aug 18, 2015·59 votes·5,087 views

#Lack of agency.

45 minutes in, finally a good catch. I'm full build; we get drag & baron. I have 1500 AP. I can literally 1-shot lux with my ult. And I can't make anything of it.

If I were Annie, I could've used flash-tibbers. If I were syndra I could've made a pick. If I were Karma or Xerath or Azir or Vel'Koz or Viktor or Malz or Lux I could poke. If I were Orianna or Zyra I could've zoned them off of towers while we siege (Veigar needs to save his stun so he's not insta-gibbed in teamfights).

The point is, Veigar can't poke. He can't make picks. He can't zone so his team can seige. The ONLY think he can do is add power to whatever plays his allies make. There's more we can do to make him thematically awesome, but from a gameplay perspective, he needs to have a small amount of agency, or he'll feel bad, forever.

93 Comments

CicoteAug 18, 201524 votes

Yes, you articulated it perfectly.

He lacks something that makes his enemies feel terrified if he's fed. Now it's somewhat like this, if you get too close to him: "Hmm.. I'm just gonna walk away." But it should be like this: "Hmm.. hopefully I can get out by using skill." (*dodging skillshots, outplaying Veigar, flashing at the right time) It's like this with almost every other midlaner: Most cc-abilities are skillshots you can dodge (Ahri, Xerath, Zyra, Lux) or you can outplay them by avoiding their burst (Zed, Xerath).

TL;DR: The point is he relies way too much on his opponent's mistakes instead of being a playmaker by using the skill of the Veigar player. And this is no healthy play type whatsoever.

But.. http://25.media.tumblr.com/c406b0c772822afa735bf68bca0ea3fa/tumblr_mj1h9yip5F1rl1m5co3_500.gif

TyaldanAug 19, 20151 votes

If you feel he relies upon opponents mistakes, then make it so you can capitalize on them much like any other champ who does the same. Get some move speed items, veigar doesnt need 100% ap items only to do his job. Try deadmans plate with ludens, or boots of speed instead of sorcerers boots. Even with only 2 items and deadmans i was at 600 ap in one game, doing drivebys to get the rest of my gold. I had them chasing me instead of pushing towers, and even then because of that little bit of tank when i ran into their full health adc while all alone, i deleted them because they didnt expect me to turn and fight. Plus 80% slow on auto means its hard to get out of w range.

Hyrum GraffAug 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Dead Man's

Lich Bane tho.

TyaldanAug 19, 20151 votes

Why not both? :D Deadmans gives sixty flat as long as you dont auto / get slowed, and that added to percent of ludens and lichbanes would be insane.

Hyrum GraffAug 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Why not both? :D Deadmans gives sixty flat as long as you dont auto / get slowed, and that added to percent of ludens and lichbanes would be insane.

Because I could get better stats from Seraph's, Void, Deathcap, etc. :P

A Superb VillainAug 19, 201511 votes

Old Veigar could zone just by being present, because if the enemy got too close** they were dead**.

Now he's a glorified siege minion with some poke and situational burst. Sure, it works, but it just doesn't feel satisfying when my only time to shine is following someone's stupid mistake.

CatAndBookTailsAug 19, 20151 votes

You mean like a singletarget less reliable annie?

League of PotatoAug 20, 20151 votes

I don't get why people bring this "argument" up. We don't want to play an entirely different champion. With that logic we should just delete every single champion that Riot feels like nerfing to the ground.

KrigjerAug 19, 20152 votes

Old Veigar could zone just by being present, because if the enemy got too close** they were dead**.

This is the problem I have with him now. His e being dodgable.. sure it adds counterplay to the enemy, but as a Veigar player it's nothing but frustrating.

SirPacifistaAug 21, 20151 votes

Jeah it ADDS counterplay to an ability which could be countered by many items AND ABILITES!!!!! (i wont list anything like bashees now, im too lazy)

Shield VillainAug 19, 20157 votes

I honestly don't understand these complaints anymore. During free week I played Veigar a few times, my very first game against a Zed mid. I did fine in lane, I never died to him. I farmed well, I pushed my wave well despite his barrage of harass, and I did pretty well for being a squishy against a Zed.

Mid game I still tried to farm mostly, but I did follow my team for some small skirmishes.

The one thing I'll say right now, is that I think you guys are playing veigar wrong. You're not supposed to lead the charge or even be in the middle of the action while a team fight breaks out. You should be as far as possible, while still within distance of being able to Q an ally. This way when the fight breaks out, you can try and poke with you 1k AP damage Nuke that hits 2 people. Also, it allows you to drop your stun around your allies, so that anyone they're dueling with will either1 Move out of the way of your Q and get stunned, or 2, get completely zoned by not wanting to be stunned. Then you drop your E and if some bitch ass champion steps too close to you, you just ult and kill them.

The goal is not to waste your rotation and to play more as a tactical support than a burst mage, until a mistake is made and you can capitalize on it.

It does take getting use to, but I did perfectly fine as a first time veigar and won the game for my team with my nukes. I must have destroyed Nidalee jungle about 3 times before a team fight even began, by capitalizing on her poor positioning and her initiations in team fights.

PersonwithhatAug 19, 201512 votes

Any zed worth his salt wil not get hit by your E. Period.

It's a difference in skill....

TyaldanAug 19, 201511 votes

And? This person didnt mention catching zed with his e. There are ways to play around being "hard countered" as veigar, you just have to realize you wont get kills midlane, and thats ok, because you are veigar, the lovable stacking bastard who doesnt need full ap items to do his job. If you keep farming minions, and do it decently, you will eventually hit the point where you dont NEED e at all, and can use it to zone them into q or w range. Who cares about a stun when making them walk into 800 - 1k damage a spell every 4 - 6 seconds does the job just as well.

ArkenStormAug 19, 20152 votes

^this

PersonwithhatAug 19, 20152 votes

So, you're assuming that someone will STAND STILL FOR ~1.5 SECONDS? LOL

I call BS on you hitting a W on anyone who's moving.....at all.... LMFAO one of the easiest spells to dodge in the game.

Or you're basing it off the fact that you'll ONLY USE YOUR Q?

So you just lost 3 spells, congrats? You're totally not hard-countered.

And a good zed will zone you, or poke until you're 80% and then 1 shot you with flash->ult->ignite->attack->shadow out, 100% HP GG.

TyaldanAug 20, 20151 votes

If youve never landed a w without stun, you are either just bad or never try because you assume it will never hit. In the middle of a frantic team fight its hard to see them, when they are so thirsty they are ready to dive tower for that kill they will ignore them, when you are being chased through the jg you can time it so they walk into the bush as it lands. So many ways to land w without the stun its not even funny. Minion blocked for a half a second? Eat a w. Used your mobility (shunpo shadow clone troll pole) to farm? eat a w. And if you know you are going to be hard countered in lane pick up tp instead of ignite so that you can go back when you hit zeds or kats magic number, and hit lane with little time lost.

PersonwithhatAug 20, 20152 votes

No. Just no. I've done all that you mentioned, vs noobs. The W is clearly telegraphed, nobody who has any skill will get hit by it UNLESS they're stunned. I'm never 'thirsty' enough to avoid looking for that 1000 DAMAGE SPELL that will get me to like 20% health. But clearly you assume everyone is....

His W is harder to land than Morg's Q :\ and independent of range....

Hyrum GraffAug 19, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The one thing I'll say right now, is that I think you guys are playing veigar wrong. You're not supposed to lead the charge or even be in the middle of the action while a team fight breaks out. You should be as far as possible, while still within distance of being able to Q an ally. This way when the fight breaks out, you can try and poke with you 1k AP damage Nuke that hits 2 people. Also, it allows you to drop your stun around your allies, so that anyone they're dueling with will either1 Move out of the way of your Q and get stunned, or 2, get completely zoned by not wanting to be stunned. Then you drop your E and if some bitch ass champion steps too close to you, you just ult and kill them.

This is exactly the problem. You can't do anything. You have to sit around waiting for a fight to break out. Sitting around behind allied lines isn't a problem if you can poke while you're there Azir Karma Lulu Lux Nidalee Velkoz or go fishing for a catch Zyra Lux Morgana Syndra .

The only other champs who can't do anything before a fight are assassins, and they at least have the gameplay of looking for a flank.

The goal is not to waste your rotation and to play more as a tactical support than a burst mage, until a mistake is made and you can follow up on your allies can capitalizing on it.

ftfy need to reac

It does take getting use to, but I did perfectly fine as a first time veigar and won the game for my team with my nukes. I must have destroyed Nidalee jungle about 3 times before a team fight even began, by capitalizing on her poor positioning and her initiations in team fights.

Sure, you can do well. That doesn't make veigar feel good to play. And I think your experience actually strengthens my point: nid had to do something, before you had the chance to kill her. If she'd hung back you'd have never been able to do anything.

Lux, Morg, Zyra Q: When you cast those, you force your enemy to react (dodge) or suffer the consequences. On Veigar, they don't need to react, they just keep walking like they were.

League of PotatoAug 19, 20153 votes

while still within distance of being able to Q an ally

This guy. Plays veigar for one game, Q's allies, now a veigar expert.

Everyone listen to this guy, he obviously knows something we don't.

air tigerAug 19, 20152 votes

lold.

Plays Vei against bad Zed, doesn't feed, is now pro.

The Q allies though. Going to have to try this.

TheJuzzoAug 19, 20156 votes

I dig Veigar the way he is, I do well with him.

He is not twitch based, he is one of the few left that you have to use strategically.

He will be off free week soon, and everyone can start posting about whatever champ will be next free weeks circle jerk.

Ill leave some tips.

--Play passive as all hell early and just farm q. spam aa a minion that is not taking damage next to the one that is targeted by your minions, then q both when they are both low. Do this as often as possible.

--Put a point in everything then get e to 3 before maxing q - w. q will scale nice with the free AP (If you do the above, even more so) and 3 in e will make the stun last long enough to reliably dump everything on a person that gets stuck.

--Play passive till 6, use e only to zone and stay safe (Or if a jungler decides to visit) till then. Playing passive 9 times out of 10 makes your lane opponent cocky and pressed to your tower, hit 6, stun em and delete em'. (Lots of times you can repeat this before they start playing safe...6 levels of feeling safe sometimes takes a few kicks in the nuts to make em forget)

--You can q between 2 minions and kill both, q is wider than it looks. Dont have to shoot across them.

--You could have flash - ult - e'd (e for escape zone) in your example.

--e a wave in front of tower w to erase, when defending. Awesome wave clear, never even enter tower range.

As for lack of agency, dont know what to tell you, I feel fine playing the little guy, and come late game control the fights just fine. E every 10 seconds or so is nothing to shake a stick at..Range is long and you can stand in back and drop it on the front line. Just forget about being flashy, he plays just fine.

lB2kGRlc8yAug 19, 20154 votes

Exactly, that's why riot thinks he's in an okay spot now, because he can really compliment an already solid engage, but on his lonesome, he's absolutely useless. God awful laning phase since he needs to be against a lobotomy patient fro them to eat his abilities and useless late game unless the team could have performed without him even being there.

air tigerAug 19, 20154 votes

Appreciate the post. Veigar is definitely lacking (not in his power budget, but yea.. in his "agency").

Hyrum GraffAug 19, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=air tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tm33uYOE,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2015-08-19T15:39:18.389+0000)

Appreciate the post. Veigar is definitely lacking (not in his power budget, but yea.. in his "agency").

If you're not a fan of the word, "ability to carry" or "ability to make plays (and not just flashy ones)" are reasonably analogous in this situation.

air tigerAug 19, 20151 votes

Nah, I appreciate the word. Noted that it stands for his play making potential and overall presence on the map. Again, thanks for posting. It wasn't until I started playing ranked that I realized how outclassed Veigar really is.

Hyrum GraffAug 19, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=air tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tm33uYOE,comment-id=001000010000,timestamp=2015-08-19T16:05:20.143+0000)

Nah, I appreciate the word. Noted that it stands for his play making potential and overall presence on the map. Again, thanks for posting. It wasn't until I started playing ranked that I realized how outclassed Veigar really is.

Idk about outclassed. he has an incredible amount of low cooldown aoe coupled with single target burst and a long aoe stun. Most mages get two of the three.

Note that agency isn't exactly 1:1 with those phrases (but close). It's like, the opposite of counterplay. A no-counterplay ability (say, Malz ult) takes away all your opponent's agency ("nanana go cosplay dryus at msi for 2.5s" -Malz)

air tigerAug 19, 20151 votes

Oh, I get that he's got power/aoe/lowish CDs and those are a bulk of the power of his kit. It's just that as you ascend tiers in the league of mobility, less and less and less people are getting caught in the stun. So despite it's length, this consequently reduces the impact W has for the whole game. And yea, as many have mentioned, stunning someone feels like that someone made a mistake more than it feels like I made a play.

I don't feel like he's a bad champ. In fact, I love Veigar. He's the first champ I ever loved to play as, and as soon as I picked him up Riot nerfed him haha. He feels a bit outclassed to me, that's all.

SasogwaAug 18, 20153 votes

Well , I can't do anything but agree once again. i guess I hope Repertoir/Meddler and other Rioters sees this (so that they understand where the real problem truly lies -not in numbers-) because this is representative of most threads I've already seen detailing the problem of Veigar right now. Lack of reliability, dependence on teammates.

iltAug 19, 20153 votes

[deleted]

Hyrum GraffAug 19, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Then play Annie, I don't need Viegar to be fotm and him to nuke my whole team.

I'm confused what your point is. That Annie can't nuke your whole team? She does that job better than Veigar does.

SirPacifistaAug 21, 20151 votes

VastoLordeh was so embarassed that he had to delete his comment, so cute °(^_^)°

Curling VeigarAug 19, 20153 votes

We already came up with a solution, removing enemy AP ratio in exhange for making his own 1.5. A red said they might look into this change a few days ago in a big Veigar thread about his identity as "burst mage" or "anti mage". 99% of people agreed with the former.

If he's fed he's going to be a monster (like all champs if fed) and if he's behind he won't have that cheap gimmicky "ult the AP carry and oneshot them while 0/7" feel anymore, which, many Veigar mains I know including myself would much rather prefer.

Hyrum GraffAug 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tm33uYOE,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-08-19T04:53:26.716+0000)

We already came up with a solution, removing enemy AP ratio in exhange for making his own 1.5. A red said they might look into this change a few days ago in a big Veigar thread about his identity as "burst mage" or "anti mage". 99% of people agreed with the former.

If he's fed he's going to be a monster (like all champs if fed) and if he's behind he won't have that cheap gimmicky "ult the AP carry and oneshot them while 0/7" feel anymore, which, many Veigar mains I know including myself would much rather prefer.

I was in that thread. I'm in agreement that we should do it (or, lower the enemy AP ratio, give it a small enemy bonus AD ratio, buff self-AP ratio). But I don't think it would solve the larger issue in Veigar's kit. He could have a 1000% AP ratio on his ult, and it wouldn't give him any more agency.

SirPacifistaAug 21, 20151 votes

Indeed, a synergy between his abilites would improve his gameplay drastically. (like the old one) Simply changing the AP radio on his R wont solve the current problem with Veigar.

FistOfSharkieshaAug 19, 20153 votes

Incoming 1500 AP Veigar ult. item 3157 K.

air tigerAug 19, 20151 votes

Better than

Incoming 1500 AP Veigar ult. Fizz troll pole Fiora riposte Vladimir troll pool

But not that much better.

Zeke MaelstormAug 19, 20151 votes

Kayle Troll bubble

air tigerAug 19, 20151 votes

Oh, forgot the bubble of doom!

Sneak DogAug 19, 20152 votes

As Veigar, you're awful alone. You can't hit a cage, you can't hit a dark matter, you can only QR people and hope they're scared.

The ONLY think he can do is add power to whatever plays his allies make.

But the amount of power you can add is insanity. You stun one or more enemies for 2.5s (!), you obliterate any squishy caught in your cage by whatever unfortunate event that happened (did our Vi just knock you into my cage? aw) and you can get two cages per teamfight with ease (9.8s cd with 30% cdr).

You're a stupendously powerful support. It's an awful thematic fit, but it's the kit.

The LovelessAug 20, 20152 votes

I'm happy to see people finally have the balls to build dps on GP like he was meant to get.

Hyrum GraffAug 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tm33uYOE,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2015-08-20T04:17:03.900+0000)

I'm happy to see people finally have the balls to build dps on GP like he was meant to get.

Yeah. 40% arpen on barels hurts, and I love the gameplay around trying to explode barrels before your enemy does (well, I don't play gp so I'm the enemy, but I love the gameplay nonetheless).

PersonwithhatAug 19, 20151 votes

Yep, check out my thread on how to maybe buff him!!

How to Buff Veigar 101 :D

Hyrum GraffAug 19, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Yep, check out my thread on how to maybe buff him!!

How to Buff Veigar 101 :D

tbh his power level is fine. He does absolutely insane amounts of teamfight damage and his stun is still amazing at peeling for himself/the adc.

He needs a buff to his ability to do anything on his own, and a nerf to compensate for that, else he'd just be straight OP.

SpecterVonBarenAug 19, 20151 votes

What he needs is a change on his w, make it a skill that can help facilitate his e.

PersonwithhatAug 19, 20151 votes

I prefer to leave W as is , except for the increase in radius. I like how it's a hammer-time NUKE that kills peeps, really fun :D

FertsaAug 19, 20151 votes

make his E radius scale with rank.

MunchyManifestoAug 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No, that would make aiming it problematic. Make the wall THICKER. ;)

ScribbsAug 20, 20151 votes

As the proud owner of a Veigar main status and penta, I have found a great strategy. Take summoner 4 + summoner 21 . Step 1: item 1076 + 2x item 2003 + item 3340 Step 2: Go to lane. Take Q. When minions spawn, last-hit with Q as much as possible. Play safely. Step 3: Level like this. Lv1 Q, Lv2 W, Lv3 E, Lv4 Q, Lv5 Q, Lv6 R, Lv7 W, and from then on max your Q, then your W but put a second point in E at level 10, and then max your E with R at 6,11 and 16. Step 4: As soon as you hit a high enough level to do some decent damage (5+) move out further into lane and push a bit. Keep your lane opponent dodging stuns. Step 5:When they go to recall, do the same. Buy item 2041 and start building a item 3174 immediately. Step 6: CS with your Q whenever possible, as Veigar has great mana regen. When your opponent is stunned by your E, quickly cast W on their location before hitting them with a Q. If they aren't low enough to finish off with your ult, CS a bit more before repeating. Step 7: Push lane and poke frequently/aggressively. Make sure to stack up damage with item 3089 , item 3157 and item 3135 . Step 8: Replace your item 1056 with a item 3020 , plus Furor or Alacrity. When in teamfights, stay just within range. If the enemies bunch up, use your stun before going in with W and Q. Ult the person doing the most damage, or save it for a low enemy.

Hope it helps :) Ekko

Hyrum GraffAug 20, 20151 votes

This is pretty much what I do, except I often like to go for item 3070 item 3165 instead of item 3174 , summoner 12 or summoner 3 instead of summoner 21 , and homeguards/distortion rather than furor. If you go Luden's rather than Zhonya's you have plenty of MS, and if you go 21-0-9 with distortion your teleport and flash are up all the time.

Again, though. I know how to play veigar. I know how to be strong with him. The issue is how satisfying he is to play as a direct result of how much I feel I can influence the outcome of a game when I'm fed (not very).