Kat is so damn boring to play against.

ApexInTheCircle·Mar 10, 2015·95 votes·6,331 views

I don't like Riven, but playing against her can be intense and fun. I Hate hate hate Zed, but getting away from his ult and barely living can be exhilarating. I Dislike playing against Yasuo because of his windwall, but outplaying one can feel like you accomplished something.

Going into solo que and playing against a Katarina, beating her, having her go bot and pick up a double and then knowing the shit storm coming....Is just boring as hell.

I'm not saying she's op or she needs a nerf, but god damn she's so binary it's disgusting. I'll admit that her early game damage is so lackluster it's pathetic, but she snowballs so ridiculously hard it's almost aneurysm inducing. If she was gated by cooldowns I would be okay with her but she's not. She's not as forgiving as Zed but she's much more frustrating to deal with. IMO her damage reduction needs to go, if it's going to stay that way other assassins like Talon and Diana should get something similar, because as it stands you can't win a trade with her if she's even a hair ahead of you. Plus she's all point and click and as I recall people were bashing Veigar because he's point and click, so it's a double standard in it's own way.

141 Comments

WeFlyNoLieMar 10, 201529 votes

If I have to mid and I'm against Katarina , my answer will always be Galio .

She wants to harass? That's cute, let me just throw up my shield and heal all the damage back while I build MR and still get AP damage passively.

Oh, you want to ult me? Idol of Durand!

Not only do you counter her in lane, but you offer up a good initiation and some decent damage later on.

But don't let Galio get popular, please, I don't want him to get nerfed.

gr8jobMar 10, 20153 votes

That's quite brilliant. I'd never considered his viability against assassins, even Zed . Yeah, the passive is useless against an AD champ, but a bonus nonetheless for the survivability you build later on. And the ult can continue to be useful for both initiation, and protection against assassins for your backline.

WeFlyNoLieMar 10, 20151 votes

Basically anybody with burst or a DoT he can survive against pretty well. I laned against a LB once, her burst was nothing more than a tickle. Almost every trade she tried I'd end up with more health than before because of the healing on his W. His ultimate will keep those pesky assassins right where you want them so your jungler can follow up if they're near. The recent buff he got a few patches ago making his ultimate unaffected by tenacity finally put him in a viable spot, in my opinion. He's just not very popular because, well, nobody really knows he exists. Galio item 3070

OrbvMar 10, 20152 votes

I like that the shield heals, but I'm always impressed by how much resistances it gives too!

Up to +90 MR and Armor, that's crazy.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Mar 10, 201511 votes

{quoted}

If I have to mid and I'm against , my answer will always be .

She wants to harass? That's cute, let me just throw up my shield and heal all the damage back while I build MR and still get AP damage passively.

Oh, you want to ult me? Idol of Durand!

Not only do you counter her in lane, but you offer up a good initiation and some decent damage later on.

But don't let Galio get popular, please, I don't want him to get nerfed.

I believe Kat would just go gank bot.

BorfinMar 10, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I believe Kat would just go gank bot.

Technically Galio's faster, so he can prevent that. As long as he isn't dumb enough to back with her in lane at 6.

So can anyone else with a MS boost though

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Mar 10, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Technically Galio's faster, so he can prevent that. As long as he isn't dumb enough to back with her in lane at 6.

So can anyone else with a MS boost though

I don't think you always know where Kat is heading.

BorfinMar 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you always know where Kat is heading.

You do if you ward one side of your lane.

You DID buy a vision ward on your first back, right?

SpecterVonBarenMar 10, 20152 votes

Not if she backed and then lane ganked.

OrbvMar 10, 20153 votes

Did you force her back, or did you both mutually return to base? If the former, why is her turret still up? If the latter, why is her turret still up?

SpecterVonBarenMar 10, 20159 votes

Yes, because I'm going to take a turret at level 5-6 as Veigar. Not saying you shouldn't try to take their turret if you see that they've ganked elsewhere, but sometimes you're a champ that just can't take a turret fast, sometimes the enemy jungler covers for them, sometimes the enemy jungler and midlaner pincer you now that you're so far from your own turret.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Mar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Did you force her back, or did you both mutually return to base? If the former, why is her turret still up? If the latter, why is her turret still up?

You are too much on paper. Waste of my breathe to convince you... "Get wards so that you always know where the enemies are." "Destroy the turret when she roams. It's easy." "I ult as Galio when Kat ults me."

Too many perfectly imagined scenarios I don't even. However, the most ridiculous scenario you imagined is this:

"You meet X champion? Easy, just pick Y champion to counter."

This is fundamentally bullshit when it comes to discussing balance matters.

OrbvMar 11, 20152 votes

You gave no resolution to the issue but whined that my reasoning was not to your liking.

You know how many "perfect scenarios" revolve around kat "Successfully" ganking? Your team HAS to be pushed. They must have ZERO CC. She must have FULL health. She has teleport to a NEARBY ward. Your team is UNAWARE that she is coming.

Kat can snowball, but not without the requirement of allies that have chosen champions with no defenses or have let down their defenses.

Also where did you get those assumptions? You're kind of just pulling things out of somewhere...to whine more. Literally where did I mention Galio facing Kat specifically? I've picked Karma into Kat and won the game hard. Seriously whose post are you reading?

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Mar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You gave no resolution to the issue but whined that my reasoning was not to your liking.

Your reasoning revolves around SCENARIOS. That's why it's questionable.

You know how many "perfect scenarios" revolve around kat "Successfully" ganking? Your team HAS to be pushed. They must have ZERO CC. She must have FULL health. She has teleport to a NEARBY ward. Your team is UNAWARE that she is coming.

Hey, all your points are actually valid to ALL JGers gank. By your logic, jungler requires EXACTLY the perfect conditions you mentioned. Lee Sin can only gank when pushed. Lee Sin can't gank if you have CC. Lee Sin can't gank without full health. Lee Sin has to teleport to a nearby ward to gank. You are unaware that Lee Sin is coming.

Anyway, the fact is you DON'T need that much for Katarina to gank successfully.

Katarina CAN gank under tower.
With the support blowing CC on her makes ADC vulnerable to enemy ADC and support. THEY HAVE TO anyway.
How is full health a difficult condition?
With trinkle, minions, sight stone, how is that a problem?
Like I said, you assume enemies are all visible to you as expected.

You make it sound like ALL conditions are required. However in reality, it only takes 2 or 3 of them to easily gank as Katarina. Hell, a successful teleport can ignore all other conditions you mentioned.

Kat can snowball, but not without the requirement of allies that have chosen champions with no defenses or have let down their defenses.

Isn't it applicable to all champions? You don't assume Katarina is fighting on her own. Her teammates actually exist.

Also where did you get those assumptions? You're kind of just pulling things out of somewhere...to whine more. Literally where did I mention Galio facing Kat specifically? I've picked Karma into Kat and won the game hard. Seriously whose post are you reading?

Literally, I said "X champion counters Y champion". Not specifically Galio. Now you pull out Karma to fill that X. Did you even read?

You making a lot of assumptions without realizing it, is the reason why it becomes quite pointless to argue with you. Your team surely are always premade dedicated to counter Katarina, I assume?

Anyways, try to find the quotes I actually pulled FROM YOU last post. What I did was only minor paraphrasing. I will point them out if you still fail to see them.

OrbvMar 12, 20152 votes

To start I'd like to point out that I had TWO posts on this thread. Your responses have all been towards another person, which I only realized now. But regardless, the fact that you didn't notice means you aren't looking at summoners names anyway...you're just dissipating frustration.

I would also hope you are far more positive in your owns games. The negativity means that you're bound to fail any game with a Kat in it.

{quoted}

Your reasoning revolves around SCENARIOS. That's why it's questionable.

Clarified this point, that was another player.

Hey, all your points are actually valid to ALL JGers gank. By your logic, jungler requires EXACTLY the perfect conditions you mentioned. Lee Sin can only gank when pushed. Lee Sin can't gank if you have CC. Lee Sin can't gank without full health. Lee Sin has to teleport to a nearby ward to gank. You are unaware that Lee Sin is coming.

Lee is not harshly affected by Silences because he can engage from out of range and then autoattack you with his AS buff and generally high AD. Dispositioning CC can be countered by his SECOND gap closer. Neither of these are defendable by Kat.

Anyway, the fact is you DON'T need that much for Katarina to gank successfully.

Katarina CAN gank under tower.

With the support blowing CC on her makes ADC vulnerable to enemy ADC and support. THEY HAVE TO anyway.

How is full health a difficult condition?

With trinkle, minions, sight stone, how is that a problem?

Like I said, you assume enemies are all visible to you as expected.

Everything you listed, again, applies to all junglers. Are you saying that any gank is bound to work because of the above scenarios?...because they don't.

Also, how often have you played Kat mid? In order to CS you need to combo, which always puts you in poke range. If you're not poked as Kat constantly, then your opponent is bad and you're going to lose anyway. Try using her some time, and see how often you're at full health.

You make it sound like ALL conditions are required. However in reality, it only takes 2 or 3 of them to easily gank as Katarina. Hell, a successful teleport can ignore all other conditions you mentioned.

All conditions? So if you don't have full health and you're diving a full health leona, morgana or soraka, or thresh, or blitz, I'm sure you'll be successful. I'm sure you'll also severely hurt ez, quinn, corki, tristana, caitlin....

Isn't it applicable to all champions? You don't assume Katarina is fighting on her own. Her teammates actually exist.

Katarina requires a lot more work to do well. It requires a lot more misplay for her to stomp. A Yasuo, Ahri, Akali will have a much easier time catching up from behind and stomping while ahead.

Literally, I said "X champion counters Y champion". Not specifically Galio. Now you pull out Karma to fill that X. Did you even read?

At this point your comprehension is GED failure worthy. I never referenced a counter. Any player in the game, I guess barring you, knows that Karma versus Katarina will STRONGLY be against Karma because she has no method of stopping Death Lotus. I was insinuating that any champion can win against Katarina and prevent her dominance if played well.

Is there any champion that Kat counters hard?

You making a lot of assumptions without realizing it, is the reason why it becomes quite pointless to argue with you. Your team surely are always premade dedicated to counter Katarina, I assume?

Again I made no assumptions, you did all of it by referencing the wrong player. Also who would make a premade to counter Kat, when in a premade you would simply ban her unless you are paranoid about 3 other champions, in which case you premade has far more issues to deal with?

Anyways, try to find the quotes I actually pulled FROM YOU last post. What I did was only minor paraphrasing. I will point them out if you still fail to see them.

Please point them out, your references to this point have been off point.

BouncingPecsMar 12, 20151 votes

I'm confused, are you arguing that Katarina is too hard to control and should be nerfed? You're building her up to be a demi-god of mids. She's good, but there's a reason there are so little Kat mains in higher Elo. Also her pick is usually from 4th to 5th in ranked. There's also a reason she isn't picked 1st through 3rd. She's so situational that you need to know if you can beat a team for sure before you pick her.

Not like Swain. HE can be picked first and destroy because the lack of grievous wounds is depressing.

ApexInTheCircleMar 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm confused, are you arguing that Katarina is too hard to control and should be nerfed? You're building her up to be a demi-god of mids. She's good, but there's a reason there are so little Kat mains in higher Elo. Also her pick is usually from 4th to 5th in ranked. There's also a reason she isn't picked 1st through 3rd. She's so situational that you need to know if you can beat a team for sure before you pick her.

Not like Swain. HE can be picked first and destroy because the lack of grievous wounds is depressing.

It's not that she is a demi-god, it's that she can easily become one with little effort. Most champions gain from other people's mistakes, however Katarina makes double use of other's mistakes. You have to literally play perfectly against one to avoid the consequences of her kit. She is boring to play against because once she gets 1 or 2 kills you know what's going to happen. She's going to get 2 items and proceed to destroy team fights, that's just the nature of Katarina.

Am I saying she needs to be nerfed? No, she needs a power shift to make her less snowbally and more reliable on skill other than items and facerolling the keyboard.

WeFlyNoLieMar 10, 20151 votes

Its a fair point, but she can do that with any lane opponent if she wants. My answer is then to keep your river warded and push the lane if she decides she wants to roam. At that point its up to your bot lane to keep ward coverage and for you to pay attention to when she leaves lane. Don't back without applying pressure first.

Q+E actually clears waves really quickly with a few ranks and very little AP.

A Miss FortuneMar 10, 20157 votes

You know all Katarina has to do to gank bot lane is Q > E > R and get a double kill while under turret. Don't worry though, she'll have another teleport ready so the turret won't kill.

WeFlyNoLieMar 10, 20153 votes

That's where wards and map awareness come in to play. You can use chat or smart pings to alert your teammates she's left lane and you and your bot lane can both place wards in the river with those things called trinkets you buy for free at the beginning of the match.

Its not like she just stealths out of mid lane and appears on top of you bot lane.

I'm not trying to be rude, but when you post stuff like that, it really shows your lack of understanding of how many tools you have at your disposal to prevent ganks.

Get this, and just bear with me here, you can actually follow her bot and counter gank. What a thought!

A Miss FortuneMar 10, 20156 votes

Wards > One of the highest burst damage champions in the game with 3/4 of her abilities targeting more than one person and decent mobility.

It doesn't really matter, Katarina is easily able to kill you under turret. Go ahead and counter gank, Katarina could use a triple.

Malix FarwinMar 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I believe Kat would just go gank bot.

basically this^, there are a ton of mid laners who beat her in LANE key word being lane but as soon as she hits 6 she is roaming bot and waiting for even the slightest team fight to press R. As long as her comp feels for her like an adc she can snowball.

HıryuMar 10, 201516 votes

Katarina is broken. Resourceless champ with good poke and good escape that can do aoe damage and have resets in teamfights. I understand that CC is katarina's counter but in solo que the coordination isnt there so what usually ends up happening is you watch your team get penta'd because no one focused the katarina.

ApexInTheCircleMar 10, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Katarina is broken. Resourceless champ with good poke and good escape that can do aoe damage and have resets in teamfights. I understand that CC is katarina's counter but in solo que the coordination isnt there so what usually ends up happening is you watch your team get penta'd because no one focused the katarina.

I used to pick Talon against her and counter the crap out of her, but his silence got removed. Then I started playing Veigar against her because his instant stun, annnnnnd that got removed. So now I'm more angry at her than I've ever been.

HıryuMar 10, 20152 votes

I use to main Talon and do the same thing, but I started using Kassadin since he can stop channels but the missile speed is too slow and it is so easy to bait out a Q since its his only ranged poke besides his E. I dont really have an answer for katarina except for begging first pick to ban her so we dont have to deal with her lol.

NarasimhaMar 10, 20152 votes

I'd personally recommend Galio, Malzahar, or Heim. Galio loves a target that willingly comes to him, Malz can shove her harder than she can push him, and he has the cc to stop her flat, and Heim...well, is Heim.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 10, 201510 votes

{quoted} solo que the coordination isnt there so what usually ends up happening is you watch your team get penta'd because no one focused the katarina.

And that blame is still on your (you and your team's) side. There are a lot of champs that can kill the whole team if they aren't taken care of or focused (off the top of my head: pretty much any competent Quinn player with IE, Shiv, and maybe Greaves). That doesn't mean the champ is OP or anything, it just means that someone needs to take the initiative and focus the Kat, or CC her, or whatever. With all the people who used to complain about all the knockups on new champs, you would think that people would also realize that this also counters Kat, a champ that people have long complained about?

HıryuMar 10, 20155 votes

She isnt fun to play against, why should I have to command four other people who arent going to listen to me anyways to focus someone who is going to delete our entire team. Any competent player would know that she is the very opposite of balanced looking at her ban rate and her win rate in solo que. Lol

ThryaleMar 10, 201510 votes

why should I have to

this is your problem right here. If this is one of your first thoughts for any of your problems in league, it may explain why you struggle so much.

That phrase indicates a self-centered person/lifestyle that expects things to be given to the player rather than the player earning his due rewards. A grouchy (but extremely skilled) game designer described this generation of gamers as "self entitled brats."

Go back and try to play some of the games that came out in the late 80's and all through the 90's. Hardly anything was handed to you on a silver platter back then, rather you were expected to figure things out for yourself. Like the intelligent and creative person you are. (or should be at least)

MasterofSFLMar 10, 20152 votes

So it's not that she's broken but can stop uncoordinated teams?

Kitten of EvilMar 10, 20153 votes

Basically this. She's a pubstomper because in solo queue at low levels, SOMEONE will feed her. Even if you call MIAs, even if you in mid do not die to her once.

Only Play DariusMar 10, 20157 votes

She takes skill to use.

SaiannaMar 10, 201513 votes

you mean reflex?

Or rolling face on keyboard?

Aww KatMar 10, 201512 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tgq0i2yr,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-03-10T09:37:14.726+0000)

She takes skill to use.

lol?

ßongsMar 10, 201516 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tgq0i2yr,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-03-10T09:37:14.726+0000)

She takes skill to use.

skill?

JefftiffyMar 10, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I don't like Riven, but playing against her can be intense and fun. I Hate hate hate Zed, but getting away from his ult and barely living can be exhilarating. I Dislike playing against Yasuo because of his windwall, but outplaying one can feel like you accomplished something.

I like playing against Kata because it's easy to abuse her weaknesses (low pre-6 damage, and low if ult gets canceled also loves to shove lane while being really squishy) and I know if I don't play right I will die because I made a mistake. I feel like shutting her down proves all the people with terrible mechanics that she isn't that strong. If I fucked up and lost its my fault not Kata's. Because if I had stopped her ult I would have won.

Hell if she wins against me its because she out played me. I understand her kit. Hell she was my first main back in S3 until I stopped playing her when the damage CC mid lane became extremely real.

The mechanics in this game in the low elos have gone down so much since then. In B1 S3 I was getting teams that focused Kata, blew up ADCs but just didn't make good decisions when behind or ahead. Now its like a bunch of monkeys slamming their fists on the keyboard getting caught flaming and then blaming the entire team. At least before it was poor decision making not a lack of mechanics. Mechanics are so key to this game. And it's just gone down the drain.

RyvakuMar 10, 20155 votes

Xerath and LeBlanc are more boring for me.

Venetia SylverMar 10, 20154 votes

Well there's also Malzahar. He kinda makes Kat rely on other lanes to get kills in. Makes Katarina cry tears because jump in SILENCE, and suppress.

ApexInTheCircleMar 10, 20153 votes

I think that if you're going to have a champion that has resets they need to be balanced around that instead or it just being tacked on an already powerful kit, IMO it's like if Talon killed someone he got a reset, and it's literally the exact same thing except I've seen Kat's that do not require their ult to complete destroy soemeone.

AuryielMar 10, 20159 votes

You say that like Kat's kit without resets would not be the most pathetic kit in the game

Rinky DinkyMar 10, 20152 votes

It wouldn't be, at all.

The only thing it would do is encourage her to actually try and get the full duration of her ult off

AuryielMar 10, 20159 votes

Which is impossible against a team with a brain, but ok, you keep telling yourself that

agbudarMar 11, 20152 votes

Fizz Akali Leblanc

nuff said

mikemcpartyMar 11, 20155 votes

you didn't say anything. you just linked some champs. add something constructive or don't add anything.

agbudarMar 12, 20151 votes

you talk very toxic add something constructive or don't add anything. it was a fukin joke, wasn't meant to be constructive.

mikemcpartyMar 13, 20151 votes

Where was the joke?

THE GREAT SLOTHMar 10, 20151 votes

I also don't think she's OP, but I agree.

I hate her pattern of:

go in on squishy target with E
QWR
did you get a kill or an assist? If yes, spam abilities as fast as you can on remaining targets.
oh, you didn't get a kill or assist? Pop Zhonya's and /or die horribly.

They could give her basic abilities more damage early but only give her a partial cool down on basic abilities, like master yi.

Or, they could keep the resets and… dare I say it?… Give her a resource. "gasp" I know, shocking idea. I feel like it would be a lot easier to balance Katarina for all ranked if she were gated somehow and couldn't just spam abilities.

Tip for people looking to dig their way out of bronze: she's the queen of low ELO. If you picked katarina mid lane every single game, chances are that in 90% of those games people would not think to lock you down with their CC until it was way too late, or would waste so much time trying to lock you down that they would ignore the rest of your team in team fights and waste all of their CC on you.

Or the enemy mid laner won't ping when you're missing. Though even if she does, her bot lane will probably just ignore the ping anyway. Bronze games are chaotic, and she thrives in chaotic situations.

ULTRAF0RCEMar 10, 20151 votes

two things one, Katarina is banned almost every game if you try to play at lowish elo, two the idea for her, riven and garen is that for them you can focus solely on improving either mechanically(riven) or strategically(Katarina) or can have a tank that can be played by anyone and is easy for new players to get used to. Also, it would be worth noting for all people who complain about Katarina, for the first half of season 4 she was not played almost at all and even without buffs she suddenly became better because of the meta shift, if people played the champs that pushed her out of the meta in the first place she would not be considered a problem by anyone.

ApexInTheCircleMar 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

two things one, Katarina is banned almost every game if you try to play at lowish elo, two the idea for her, riven and garen is that for them you can focus solely on improving either mechanically(riven) or strategically(Katarina) or can have a tank that can be played by anyone and is easy for new players to get used to. Also, it would be worth noting for all people who complain about Katarina, for the first half of season 4 she was not played almost at all and even without buffs she suddenly became better because of the meta shift, if people played the champs that pushed her out of the meta in the first place she would not be considered a problem by anyone.

I personally and fully believe that the mana nerfs brought out Zed, Leesin and Katarina and at the beginning of this season Akali as large powerhouses because of their manaless kits and regenerating resources. As it stands I think every mana based champion needs some slight mana regen buff or at least a maximum mana buff across the board.