The thing people aren't realizing about Veigar's new Q

ApexInTheCircle·Feb 17, 2015·90 votes·10,166 views

I keep seeing people saying stuff like "Oh you can get twice the ap farm now" or "Oh they nerfed his ult because you'll wind up with more ap because you can get 2 minions!"

Last time I checked, they're not adding more minions to minion waves. With a I will get almost if not all the minions from a minion wave to begin with. The only thing you accomplish with the new Veig Q is pushing your lane and opening yourself up for more ganks which is now easier for the jungler because of the stun nerf. You don't some how wind up with more AP unless you're losing the game and you've got minions piling up at your base and you can kill 2 with one Q. But at that point it's so close to the game being over it doesn't matter anymore.

78 Comments

RrettFeb 17, 201530 votes

I pride my self as one of the best veigar players and your whole notion is based off using his laning time to farm Q.

You're wrong.

You don't sit back and farm your Q as veigar. You harass the enemy with it whenever you can. Your goal as veigar should at no point in the game be to stack your Q. His strongest game is Mid game and if you sit back and farm your Q you'll completely waste mid game.

Then you also have the misconception that you'll actually be able to kill two minions a time with his Q. Pick lux real quickly and try and last hit two minions with her Q. The damage is a bit reduced but the premise is still there. What I'm very sure you'll find is that it's rather difficult.

1st HanarSpectreFeb 17, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I pride my self as one of the best veigar players and your whole notion is based off using his laning time to farm Q.

You're wrong.

You don't sit back and farm your Q as veigar. You harass the enemy with it whenever you can. Your goal as veigar should at no point in the game be to stack your Q. His strongest game is Mid game and if you sit back and farm your Q you'll completely waste mid game.

Then you also have the misconception that you'll actually be able to kill two minions a time with his Q. Pick lux real quickly and try and last hit two minions with her Q. The damage is a bit reduced but the premise is still there. What I'm very sure you'll find is that it's rather difficult.

^This. I don't understand how can people not realize that now Veigar can choose to either Q w minions for AP or get one minion and some chip damage on the enemy laner. Now this might not be enough to offset the changes, but it is still a huge buff regardless.

ApexInTheCircleFeb 17, 201525 votes

[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KAX0iyLG,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-02-17T02:33:45.557+0000)

^This. I don't understand how can people not realize that now Veigar can choose to either Q w minions for AP or get one minion and some chip damage on the enemy laner. Now this might not be enough to offset the changes, but it is still a huge buff regardless.

While I can agree with you in principle, what you're describing is an ideal situation where a minion near death is lined up with the enemy champion. This is very situational and in competitive play will be nigh impossible to do consistently

1st HanarSpectreFeb 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

While I can agree with you in principle, what you're describing is an ideal situation where a minion near death is lined up with the enemy champion. This is very situational and in competitive play will be nigh impossible to do consistently

Kalista proves you wrong. Yes, Veigar's q has shorter range, but there are significantly more melees present in the mid lane anyways Of course it's situational, it doesn't mean that it's bad or that it's impossible to make happen however. You can prep minion for it, or just farm and pop it when the opportunity arise on its own.

ApexInTheCircleFeb 17, 201512 votes

[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KAX0iyLG,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-17T02:44:11.872+0000)

Kalista proves you wrong. Yes, Veigar's q has shorter range, but there are significantly more melees present in the mid lane anyways Of course it's situational, it doesn't mean that it's bad or that it's impossible to make happen however. You can prep minion for it, or just farm and pop it when the opportunity arise on its own.

But in terms of Kalista her Spear travels way faster and can also pierce through multiple minions at once. Veigar's is limited to 2 and the skillshot is much slower making it easier to dodge.

InsaneSamuraiFeb 17, 20153 votes

That doesn't mean you will never get any free damage off it. You Veigars are sooooo morose about this update like there is no way anything could have possibly improved in the slightest :P

NinjaFiferFeb 17, 201520 votes

Well, to be fair, they took a champ who no one really played often, and removed his core item, removed his guaranteed stun, took away some damage on his ult, and gave him a reworked Q that is kind of up in the air on the buff or nerf issue. I mean, I know 50 Shades of Grey is on everyone's mind, but hitting someone that much with a bat and then showing them awkward love is pretty twisted, even for BDSM standards.

CaptnJakSparrowFeb 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well, to be fair, they took a champ who no one really played often, and removed his core item, removed his guaranteed stun, took away some damage on his ult, and gave him a reworked Q that is kind of up in the air on the buff or nerf issue. I mean, I know 50 Shades of Grey is on everyone's mind, but hitting someone that much with a bat and then showing them awkward love is pretty twisted, even for BDSM standards.

But muh qol buff we were all promised.

ThryaleFeb 17, 20154 votes

Playing devil's advocate here: but in riot's defense, they did give veigar those mana buffs he's been desperately needing for the past 3 years.

Okay, I'm done, as you were, soldier.

Celeste BenalFeb 17, 20151 votes

"Guaranted stun"

That in and of itself is enough to warrant a change.

ApexInTheCircleFeb 17, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celeste Benal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KAX0iyLG,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2015-02-17T18:36:55.185+0000)

"Guaranted stun"

That in and of itself is enough to warrant a change.

A skill shot aoe stun that only stuns on the sides is not a "Guaranteed(ftfy) stun" Good Veigars can make it work literally all the time, most mediocre ones or bad ones will either get lucky or completely undershot it or overshot it. Want a Guaranteed stun? Taric is a point and click stun that sets you up to get molested by his adc. But you don't see anyone complaining about taric. Amumu has a PBAOE stun/snare that can destroy a team fight, you don't see anyone asking him to be nerfed. So why in the hell are people defending these Veigar nerfs?

InsaneSamuraiFeb 18, 20151 votes

Veigars stun lasts about twice as long and can hit up to everyone?

PartholonianFeb 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Taric is a point and click stun that sets you up to get molested by his adc. But you don't see anyone complaining about taric.

Maybe because it takes two people to pull off "Taric's" combo due to his terrible damage?

Or just because he has been nerfed into the ground until rework... what do you think are the chances his reliable stun will survive the rework?

Lord Graves IIIFeb 18, 20151 votes

Im a longtime veigar fan who is super excited. His targetted stun was strong enough to be holding him back. Sort of like old sion stun, or shens ult right now.

Since the enemy has room to fight back, Veigar was allowed to have his legendarily bad early game ironed out a bit, without minimizing its uniqueness.

InsaneSamuraiFeb 18, 20151 votes

Well you lost me at the end there, but just because he's not popular doesn't mean the kit is healthy. This gives me hope that someday they will actually rework the barbarian king of BS :D

It's like Sion. He wasn't popular at all, and he pretty much got worse, but his kit is more fun and more healthy for the game.

ApexInTheCircleFeb 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well you lost me at the end there, but just because he's not popular doesn't mean the kit is healthy. This gives me hope that someday they will actually rework the barbarian king of BS :D

It's like Sion. He wasn't popular at all, and he pretty much got worse, but his kit is more fun and more healthy for the game.

In that sense, Riven isn't healthy Zed isn't health and Gnar isn't health. All 3 have exceedingly high damage 2 with more cc on a shorter cooldown and all 3 with high mobility. So you tell me Throw Veigar in that mix and which one of those 4 sounds weaker and less healthy for the game.

people keep pointing out his ability to 100-0 someone even if he's behind. HATE TO SAY IT but Zed has been doing this since his release, Katarina can go 0-15 in lane and as long as she can pick up 2-3 kills she becomes your teams worst nightmare, not just one persons. And before you say Katarina is countered by CC, everyone in this game is countered by CC, bar Olaf and Irelia but they're both in good places.

SorryBoysImLesFeb 17, 20153 votes

Except you're not getting any damage off on the enemy laner now. The only way you're going to is if the enemy laner is not smart enough to realize "Veigar can only poke me now if there's no or one minion(s) in the way." And if they're not it makes no difference, you should be winning against them.

The new Q is pretty much enforcing the idea to farm with it as opposed to using it for poke. Now you rely on W for poke, which again, if the enemy isn't brain dead, is never going to successfully land.

I'm seriously wondering how exactly Veigar is meant to trade now other than getting an enemy who isn't smart enough to know what his E and W do, now that they have time to dodge and react to both.

jv21blU7oDFeb 17, 20151 votes

How exactly do you go about this? I find myself always going oom pretty quickly no matter if I use Q to harass or to stack. What's your usual play pattern in lane? What runes do you use?

RrettFeb 17, 20151 votes

I'm not sure how much dabox plays anymore but I just copied him in just about everything.

I started flask and 3 hpots. It's best if you can get an AA in as well.

That being said it's very simple, if you can Q a enemy champion you Q him and zone him out as much as possible while remaining safe. It's not something easy to explain all the finesse in it though.

19348180DEL1Feb 17, 20151 votes

I play Lux. That last hit scenario you are talking about with her Q, it is only done in clutch situations where you just -gotta- get that farm!

In general, i try to stick with auto attacks, doe.

It only happens if they really are piling up and my auto attack is on wind-up and i'm about to miss one.. doe

Curling VeigarFeb 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I pride my self as one of the best veigar players and your whole notion is based off using his laning time to farm Q.

You're wrong.

You don't sit back and farm your Q as veigar. You harass the enemy with it whenever you can. Your goal as veigar should at no point in the game be to stack your Q. His strongest game is Mid game and if you sit back and farm your Q you'll completely waste mid game.

Then you also have the misconception that you'll actually be able to kill two minions a time with his Q. Pick lux real quickly and try and last hit two minions with her Q. The damage is a bit reduced but the premise is still there. What I'm very sure you'll find is that it's rather difficult.

THIS. That being said, I feel as if the people who tested Veigar's changes really either

Don't know anything about Veigar
Don't realize that in a competitive environment (Diamond+) no one would let Veigar even so much as breathe
Were testing changes Versus beginner bots.

ArkenStormFeb 17, 20151 votes

actaully it's really not hard to hit 2 minions at once with his q, the hitbox is relatively large and minions line up all the time. I was shocked at how often it happened. but I disagree, you actually should be farming with your q at early game, whilst harassing because your passive regens the mana needed.

RrettFeb 19, 20151 votes

Arken, no offense but you're skill is extremely meager. I had extremely high success with my veigar last season and the last couple of ranked I played 2/3 of the games I didn't even die and completely destroyed, and even the game I lost, the only one that didn't do bad was me.

Now take into account I learnt veigar from studying the best veigar in the world who was top 10 challenger in NA for a bit.

Simply speaking you can say that you're supposed to farm Q as veigar. You might have success with it no doubt, but you're suffering an extreme bias.

In low plat I played AD veigar and won. Even won my lane. It's no surprise you're getting favorable results with veigar in bronze 1 with your strategy.

Simply speaking your input is irrelevant due to lack of skill.

People tend to stick with inferior builds and playstyles because they've had success with them which I understand. My playstyle heavily relies on my superb ability to juke, as well as proper positioning, amazing awareness, and ability to insta stun with E. I doubt you have any of these so it's no surprise you have more success with just farming Q as thats the playstyle of the least skilled. You can win a lot no doubt but it's not the most optimal playstyle.

Play with it all you want, but just know that it's no where near as strong as the one I use(and any other great veigar player).

ArkenStormFeb 20, 20151 votes

wow. you should know that ranking barely means anything. if you actually bothered to check things instead of jumping to conclusions, you would know that I was actually silver 1 last season, and not to mention this is pbe only, and it has nothing to do with rank. Simply speaking your input is a matter of opinion, and also situation. if you are an adept veigar player as you suggest, then you know what matchups to play him in or not. in the matchups that you do play him in, it depends on who it is. I don't think I need to explain this to you, I'm pretty sure you know. if they have weak early game, you harass them more than you farm. (also notice that I said harass whilst farming. It is possible to do both.) if they have stron gearly game, sit back and farm more than you harass.

Also way to be humble there. oh I am amazing, you should listen to me. how about you go raise yourself up above some other peasants and leave me alone, let me do what I think is best and you can continue doing what you do. I DO NOT CARE.

(and just by the way, every time you say no offense, you mean offense, so...yeah)

RrettFeb 20, 20151 votes

if you actually bothered to check things instead of jumping to conclusions, you would know that I was actually silver 1 last season

I mean that's still just as bad. It's actually even worse when you think of how you managed to drop to bronze 1 when you were silver 1... Everytime I reach a ranked I'm always able to get back to it easily. Silver 1 is still very bad though.

if you are an adept veigar player as you suggest, then you know what matchups to play him in or not

I literally played him every single game. from p5 to d5 it took me 50 games and I had a 16 game win streak at one point and a couple of winning games before 18 minutes. Theirs unfavorable matchups but veigar is able to win every single one. Only until you get into high level 5's does he face issues. Dabox also got to top 10 challenger playing only veigar so matchups don't really matter.

also notice that I said harass whilst farming. It is possible to do both

It's very possible, and I do it all the time, but the mind set isn't for stacking your Q. Besides canon I only farm Q because it's more easy to last hit with. Focusing on farming your Q drains your mana like crazy. THe most optimal build path used to be no mana items and dfg rush but they took dfg out so it's not that bad to build morello nomicon now.

if they have strong early game, sit back and farm more than you harass

This is really irrelevant. It doesn't really matter how strong their early game is you can still win it and harass them. He has a point and click Q which makes this possible so if you're good at juking it really pays off.

Also way to be humble there. oh I am amazing, you should listen to me.

Can't remember if I was going for humble because I kept boasting about myself but I am amazing at veigar and you probably should listen to me. Even if my advice isn't the best it's worlds better than you so if you follow teachings properly you'd at least get diamondV.

how about you go raise yourself up above some other peasants and leave me alone

Peasants don't play PC games, they play console ones.

and just by the way, every time you say no offense, you mean offense, so...yeah

I agree, I was going to take it out but too lazy. I actually wanted to switch it to 'full offense'.

El SeibzehnFeb 18, 20151 votes

Hmm what do you think about the stun change. And this is the second time I have heard this comment about not q farming...Out of curiosity, how is it stronger in mid game? Do you still max your q first or do you max w?

RrettFeb 19, 20151 votes

As someone who heavily relies on quickcast instastain to have any chance against tough matchups the stun change ruins him. He simply won't be playable anymore.

As for his Q farming, you make an effort to get the canon minions because they're worth two but getting kills and harrassing is more important.

What I find is if you do poorly overall your Q farm is gonna be bad no matter what or you devoted to much time to farming and you're a negative asset to your team.

In games where you do good you get crazy stacks from your Q simply by killing people.

People always say veigar is low mobility but I don't really agree with this because I always rush mobis and run everywhere on the map as quickly as possible and gank as much as I can. Veigars mid game in crazy strong, so if you run around ganking early-midgame your ganks are extremely potent because of the aoe stun and the speed from mob boots.

I've ended more than a couple diamond games with 0 deaths frequently and with a jungler duo it's not uncommon to win before 18minutes.

To re answer it's more effective to harrass and roam than it is to farm your Q.

Late game where 5 people have banshees and are extremely hard to kill you know longer have as much catch potential with your cage. Veigars mid game is so strong because he can catch people and gib them, or with him from teammates gib them as well. All of this is only possible with the instant stun on his E though so every battle strategy there is for veigar is gone.

ZarxisFeb 17, 201513 votes

Many players and forum-goers are also failing to recognize that a skillshot is infinitely harder to land against the untold hordes of mobile characters in mid lane. You can throw as many skillshot Baleful Strikes at Yasuo as you like, but he has a wind wall and/or a dash ready for each of them... Not to mention how he tends to build movement speed.

ApexInTheCircleFeb 17, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Many players and forum-goers are also failing to recognize that a skillshot is infinitely harder to land against the untold hordes of mobile characters in mid lane. You can throw as many skillshot Baleful Strikes at Yasuo as you like, but he has a wind wall and/or a dash ready for each of them... Not to mention how he tends to build movement speed.

Good luck nailing an Akali or Kat or hell even an ahri with your Q anymore.

MrSexyHoboFeb 17, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Good luck nailing an Akali or Kat or hell even an ahri with your Q anymore.

cough velkoz problems cough

360D3GR3SSFeb 17, 20155 votes

RIOT said they did tests with it and the double Q farm worked a little too well. Also if he farms twice as fast without CDR this means he can build more damage items instead of prioritizing CDR...Just sayin...

ApexInTheCircleFeb 17, 20157 votes

{quoted}

RIOT said they did tests with it and the double Q farm worked a little too well. Also if he farms twice as fast without CDR this means he can build more damage items instead of prioritizing CDR...Just sayin...

When have you ever not gotten max CDR on Veigar. Even old Veig and new Veig will require MnC simply for the mana regen. With the massive mana regen nerf they rolled out at the beginning of this season it's almost a requirement on all apc.

JamnonFeb 17, 20151 votes

Some people are grabbing two item 3165 s. Not saying I agree with it, just saying it happens.

ApexInTheCircleFeb 17, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Some people are grabbing two s. Not saying I agree with it, just saying it happens.

Because you get 40% cdr and 200% base mana regen, so it's definitely worth

Truly PridefulFeb 17, 20154 votes

Not getting CDR would also give you less stuns, less ultimates, and less spellcasts in general over the course of the game. So no, you'll lose damage in the long run and not have your spells up when you need them. This is ignoring that he needs to mana regen on most of the CDR AP items to offset his garbage costs and the nerfs from the pre-season.

Rinky DinkyFeb 17, 20154 votes

Lets not forget every single one of his costs where lowered

JunkοFeb 17, 20153 votes

By like 10-20 each, except for ultimate at rank 3, at which point you will have a fully stacked tear (literally for nerfs and ingame) so it won't matter

Rinky DinkyFeb 17, 20151 votes

Tear is not a core item on Veigar.

Honestly, I don't think any of the good Veigar players use tear at all.

Delay's his midgame, where the mains say he is strongest. Tear would be for AP farming, which everyone who plays him says is not the way to go. Take that as you will

JunkοFeb 17, 20155 votes

Tear doesn't necessary mean AP farming. It allows you to poke without feeling you are starving yourself and most of the time will make sure you will always have mana for your spells when your need them(like when you are ganked or your jungler is ganking).

Seraph is also really AP heavy, 60 base AP + 30 AP per 1000 mana (the item gives 1k on it's own, and Veigar has 1k base mana by level 14), this means at level 14 it becomes a 120 AP item that can potentially give him a 500 health shield in case somebody gets to him in teamfights.

500 health shield is quite a lot on a glass cannon mage, so is 120 AP to replace DFG.

Truly PridefulFeb 17, 20151 votes

The mana cost on his Q was left as is. The mana cost on his E changing is kind of null for the arguement in my opinion. He won't be throwing them out on cooldown because that's a death wish. W cost going down is cool, but it'll still be hard to hit with outside of E landing.

I agree with what you said below about tear as well. Rushing tear just delays Veigar's midgame power which is a huge mistake. I don't feel like his build will change much aside from another CDR filling the old DFG slot.

straight4freeFeb 17, 201514 votes

{quoted}

RIOT said they did tests with it and the double Q farm worked a little too well. Also if he farms twice as fast without CDR this means he can build more damage items instead of prioritizing CDR...Just sayin...

I'm already convinced that Riot's internal playtesters are mindblowingly incompetent, so this doesn't really mean much.

At best they don't play most of the champions they test on a regular basis.

ApexInTheCircleFeb 17, 201511 votes

{quoted}

I'm already convinced that Riot's internal playtesters are mindblowingly incompetent, so this doesn't really mean much.

At best they don't play most of the champions they test on a regular basis.

I got money says they test these things against bots and in a non competitive environment.

LeeDarkFeb 17, 20152 votes

I wouldn't even go that far. I'm fairly certain they just look at spreadsheets.

TsundayFeb 17, 20151 votes

Their playtesters rank in mid/high diamond. Honestly I'm sure they don't play most of the champions they test on a regular basis because if you're playing at such high elo you can't just pick up a champion you've played only a little bit of and expect to do well.

Sypher The PoroFeb 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm already convinced that Riot's internal playtesters are mindblowingly incompetent, so this doesn't really mean much.

At best they don't play most of the champions they test on a regular basis.

As someone who plays PBE, I just want to say this:

PBE People: Hey! Those Sona nerfs! The stronger jungle! It's no bueno!

Riot: TO LIVE!

InsaneSamuraiFeb 17, 20152 votes

Yes but you're also getting extra random pokes that you never would have had before when there's one minion between you and the enemy. There are not only downsides to all these things :P

ApexInTheCircleFeb 17, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Yes but you're also getting extra random pokes that you never would have had before when there's one minion between you and the enemy. There are not only downsides to all these things :P

True but you can't just expect them to literally nerf 2 of his skills and expect turning something into a skillshot to make everything better. I honestly do see the upsides to it being a skill shot, checking bushes, seeing if blue is up more chase potential. But the downsides outweigh the good (IMO). It force pushes his lane which opens it up for ganks, and combined with the nerfed E it literally cuts his survivability(which let's face it, outside of his stun was extremely low) to an even lower level. If his stun was such an issue why not change it 4 seasons ago when he was released.

It's 4 years later and people are just now coming out of the wood-works opposing his E saying that it's problematic. The real issue here is that he counters mobile champions in a mobile heavy meta where not getting his is the name of the game. Turning his E into a skill shot just enforces this notion ontop of his E nerf and ontop of his R nerf.

So why is Zed, Akali, Katarina,Ahri and Yasuo allowed to be so safe while still retaining the ability to burst someone down. I mean Zed can 100-0 you with little to no counterplay. So why can't Veigar, someone who has no sustain and no mobility .

Rinky DinkyFeb 17, 20152 votes

The only nerf I find to be ridiculous is the scaling on his ult being cut.

The E nerf was going to happen eventually, we all knew it.

Revert the ult nerfs and I think this would be fine.

Icy AuronFeb 17, 20151 votes

Remove the target's AP ratio, THEN we can talk about increasing his base ratio.

Rinky DinkyFeb 17, 20154 votes

Uh no, that would remove the entire purpose of playing veigar.

I could just take Annie and do his job with 100% more success if that was to happen.

The AP ratio nerfs need to be undone. Good veigar's do not passively q stack in lane.