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I know I'm going to get downvoted but I think Tanks are just as much of a "problem" as ADC's

Malicious Metal··15 votes·653 views

They're both sides of the same coin and if one of them are "strong" enough to warp the game into a Tank or ADC Meta everyone who doesn't play either one of them is going to be miserable.

Tanks in particular don't work in this game because unlike MMO's they can't just be aggro magnets due to their lack of actual taunts and humans knowing not to attack the beefy targets. Couple that with good base damages and extremely reliable cc they become a nightmare as you: A) can't kill them B) They still win the fights due to their innate base damages and being able to survive long enough to get them off C) Once they're ahead they can just roll you over with reliable engages and there's nothing to be done to "outplay" them D) You need a TON of pen or dedicated tank busters to kill them

And then there are ADCS. If they're good they just kill everything from 600 range away with minimal counterplay to them due to the nature of their reliable AA based DPS. They share the same issue as tanks since most of their "perks" are reliable and don't offer a ton of ways to outplay them.

Oh, and don't try coming up with counterplay arguments like A) just STAY out of range for tank engages or B) just engage on the Adc

because that's just as binary as these two classes. Mages, as much as I dislike saying this, are fairer due to the nature of their kits and most of their stuff being really unreliable. Unlike Malzahar, which is why he's become one of the strongest and most opressive mid laners.

39 Comments

Ralanr9 votes

This is why we need tank CC to be more difficult to land imo.

At the end of the day, tanks need to actually be durable. It's one of the main descriptor of a tank, which does present this unhealthy argument of stat checking at times. Locking their tankiness completely behind abilities would make them into a feast or famine durability class, which considering how durability falls off just seems like a whole lot of work for nothing.

So instead we should make their contributions to teamfights more interactive. Require more conditions or making things more telegraphed. It doesn't need to be Sion level and it doesn't need to be something crazy like "X only stuns on the red side" but we need our CC to be less reliable to broaden the skill set to tanking.

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

Why would locking tankiness behind abilities make them feast or famine? I agree with the gist but this part didn't make sense.

Ralanr2 votes

Because tanks in general are going to buy tank items. So if a tank is snowballing, then he's going to be super tanky behind those abilities and regular tanky without them. If a tank is behind, he'll be tanky with those abilities, but rather squishy without them which makes him feel worthless.

And if the abilities alone provide enough durability, then you can just build damage instead. Basically it'd be like a JarvanIV with CoTC as part of his passive and he's building lethality.

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

Ok that makes sense, but in the case where you're behind aren't you supposed to be less effective at tanking?

Allowing some tanks to get some tankiness from their abilities means that there are windows in which, even from behind, tanks can effectively tank. Assuming they keep up in xp there is a reliable amount of tankiness in their kit at any given moment. And obviously riot isn't going to give someone like jarvan a large defensive steroid, I had champs like naut and leona in mind.

Giving tanks innate tanking abilities will make them more reliable and differentiate them from other champion classes innately and will therefore open up champion builds. Of course nobody wants to see a lethality sion meta, but if niche items that don't provide perfect stats are added and are especially suited for tanks because of their actives I'd like to see tanks being able to build those items.

Ralanr1 votes

But then that'd make tanks really big snowballers.

Frightning5 votes

The problem with tanks is that their base damage is in burst form, so in order for to have good damage, they automatically end up with oppressive amounts of burst. Tanks need most of their damage budget in Damage over Time effects, like Amumu's W, and such. It's the same problem that's gotten mages (and their items) nerfed season after season. Having good CC and burst damage is an unhealthy combination. ADCs are meant to be the 'tank-busting' class, but because of how strong their itemization is, as well as how powerful their newfound DPS makes lifesteal, they basically have really strong burst too now (and can outduel fighters in many cases, which isn't supposed to happen, fighters were supposed be able to 1v1 ADCs and win)

Ralanr1 votes

Tanks having their damage in burst is usually because their damage is kinda tied to some CC abilities. Galio's Q is actually a DPS one, but it's mainly used for the burst because people don't stay in the tornado that long.

Frightning1 votes

Yea, that's almost exactly the problem, most tanks have good base damage (which is needed if they aren't support tanks), but because it's usually all done up front, that makes it to where the tank can produce some pretty impressive burst as part of a CC chain. What I am suggesting is that the bulk of their 'damage budget' shouldn't be spent on immediate damage, and reserved for some for DoT effect instead. Galio's Q is a decent example, but it still frontloads quite a bit of its damage. (What I REALLY like about it is that a good Galio is rewarded with the DoT as well when he lands a good Q+E combo, or times a W+Q combo nicely).

Ralanr1 votes

Honestly I'm not sure that would work well on all tanks. Tanks like Sion are better bursty because of the build up on their abilities.

Kariu Rena4 votes

Wow this board actually downvoted you for saying the truth when they upvote you for anything else you say no matter what. The illogical hate on adc from gameplay baord is disgusting

Ralanr1 votes

He points out that both are a problem though.

Anags2 votes

It's as if there are strong very reliable types of every champ that can be problematic.

It has never really been a class issue because even in the same so called "class" the champs are different.

Balance is much more involved than this class and this class are too strong. So blanket complaining is pretty pointless. You can't just point at any one classification of champs and say they are a problem when there are so many variables.

LankPants3 votes

The problem with tanks is that Riot's decided that every single tank should have 3 hard CCs, a soft CC and a huge durability steroid with shitall damage or utility outside of their CC with only a few exceptions to the utility rule for tank supports.

Tanks have become a generic, homogenised class since their rework, you lost your tanks with unique niches like Sejuani being the damage based tank and Maokai being the protective tank with his R in favour of more generic tanks, now you have Gragas, Sejuani, Zac, Maokai, Poppy, Naut, Alistar, Leona, Rammus, Sion and Galio all fitting the exact same niche and doing the exact same things post lane phase, Riot created an arms race. Of course the tanks that are played are insane, look at what they're competing with. In order to be played over other generic tanks they have to be head and shoulders above them.

This is why the tank rework was such a disaster, it took 4 champs who had reasons to be played outside of "they're better than other tanks" and made them so generic that you'll only ever look at them when they're better than other tanks. Rather than actually looking at what was unique about Sej, Rammus, Zac or Maokai Riot just forced them into their tank shaped box and it's lead into the problems we have with tanks now, alongside the pure idiocy that is Stoneplate's design.

Ralanr2 votes

Maokai was not a protective tank. The only protective thing about him was his ult. He was a generalist through and through.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Upboated for more Sion style tonks. Which r best.

Ralanr1 votes

Sadly Sion style is basically the defining trait of Sion. To make his style of tanking design more common, you'd have to give him something to make him better stand out as unique.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Make him bellow COWARD! every time you press E. It is the roar of the slayer after all.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

Skillshots and delays with strong payout are not unique to Sion tho.

Ralanr1 votes

Seems that way when it comes to tanks imo.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

i like it better then the 1 shot meta we had for ever and kinda still have with some adcs lethality builds

Big Lincoln2 votes

I know I'm going to get downvoted

well if you know it i guess i won't stop myself hehe

all u rly have to do is make their strongest assets not reliable. if it's reliable then it shouldn't be disproportionately punishing e.g adc 1k crits

also make tanks bruisers, instantly easier to balance

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Mages, as much as I dislike saying this, are fairer

HA! Take that you ADC/Tank mains fighting among yourselves! Shurima Mages will rise! Azir

Big Lincoln2 votes

mages are scum

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Tanks are scummier. Thick scum.

Big Lincoln2 votes

mages have the likes of Ryze

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Tanks have the likes of Sejuani https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/8421765/Sejuani_Splash_3.jpg

Bottom Laner1 votes

Leona Sejuani Thicc scum.*

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

Juggertwins4lyfe Shyvana Illaoi

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/1ptVnxgKvFzgI/giphy.gif

Teridax682 votes

While I don't think tanks are as much of a problem as marksmen, I do agree that tanks as they have been designed are fundamentally flawed, for the reasons mentioned in the OP. While I disagree that tanks can't generate aggro (their core threat is supposed to be CC, not damage, and leaving a tank alone should mess up your team's workings), I do think many of them have too much damage for the reliability of their engages, and vice versa.

One of the most impressive moments than can happen in League is the tank/damage wombo combo, where a tank successfully disables the entire enemy team and allows their team to wipe them out extremely quickly. However, we're at a stage where several tanks can land tons of CC and damage on their own, and thereby not even require coordinated teamwork to reliably affect the enemy team. It would be fine for some tanks to have reliable initiation, as long as they cannot output significant damage during that same window, and in order for this to happen I think tanks need to start having damage shifted away from their abilities and onto their autoattacks.

The other major problem with many tanks is that a lot of their power amounts to punishing enemies for staying near them. It's possible to do this intelligently, as is the case for Sion, but in general this is still done through fairly boring, persistent PBAoE damage, including on several updated kits like Amumu, Galio, Rammus and Zac. Many tanks are also guilty of having CC that is excessively difficult or impossible to dodge at melee range, making life harder for every frontliner, and contributing to the general demand for tanks and fighters to access Tenacity. As long as tanks get to just press all of their buttons and get the most out of their kit just by being near their targets, they will continue to be difficult to balance and design around, as they won't be interactive enough for real variability to appear.

Dani El Pezglobo1 votes

tanks and asassins (sorry i mean adc, sometimes hard to direfence them on this meta) have always the same problem. if tanks are good adc are trash, if adc are good tanks are trash. Because tanks reli 2 much on them damage (so they one shot adc, or adc can ignore them)

Dani El Pezglobo1 votes

Meanwhile mages have to hit their spells so they can have tons of damage (still waiting riot put more dammage less hp to syndra) , they are more fairly , because u depend on hit a skillshots, and when u use it , they have cooldown , not like adc aa

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

well alot would argue that syndra dont have to land anything , can miss all her abilities and 1 shot you with just R

lol

Dani El Pezglobo1 votes

ik , im talking about mages on general , not about syndra r 150000000000000000000000 damage

Rainfall1 votes

tanks are not a problem,item 3190 is.

The Leo Cat1 votes

Actually... the purpose of tanks in Mobas, and MMOs when PvP is involved, is basically to protect your backline. In a game like Overwatch, sure you can't really "Taunt" the enemy into shooting you, but you can make it difficult.

In a game like League on the other hand... the rules behave just like an MMO. Where you can use Crowd Control, and taunts to keep the enemy from hurting your squishes.

The counter play to Tanks are actually just ADCs normally, or the AP carry. Tanks will normally build for one defense, and usually leave the other wide open.

ADCs don't actually attack at 600 range. Most of them are at 550, after that they are lower. Only a handful of them actually go past 550, and they have a number of drawbacks for their excess range.

The counterplay to ADCs is that they often lack a form of escape, self peel, or are easily dived ontop of. Which is where assassins usually come into play. The problem most players have, including myself, is they often don't think about trying to flank. Instead you get two death balls bouncing back and forth till one of them is brave enough to engage.

Frightning1 votes

"lack a form of escape": It used to that this was the case, not anymore: Caitlyn Corki Ezreal Graves Kindred Lucian Quinn Tristana Vayne Xayah all have escapes. Also, "lack of self-peel" is true of quite a few ADCs, but not all, and of that do have self-peel also have escapes too.

Pie Cubed1 votes

I think people don't recognize something as an issue if it's not them being one-shotted by it.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I mean, i agree with the premise you've made but I'd go a lot farther.

Basically, anything that's not a skillshot dependent mage is the problem (if you want to look at it that way). Fighters are just tanks that do more damage at the cost of not surviving as long. Utility supports are just allowing adcs to ignore everything even more as they'll be shielded/healed when they step in the wrong spot. Assassins and non-skillshot damage dealers can deal way too much damage reliably while also being capable of avoiding loads of nontargeted and nonranged damage.

Literally only mages both lack tankiness and have a harder time dealing damage than they have the ability to avoid it.

However I'd also go not at all as far. Tanks are not a problem - Zac and Cho'gath are broken but otherwise tanks introduce fair play to the game. Adcs are not broken - twitch and draven may become nightmares if left unchecked - but complaining about a hypercarry being strong when fed is ridiculous. Fighters are not a problem - darius and pantheon may be a pain to Lane against but they have defined weaknesses. Utility supports are not a problem - Janna may be too successful for most metas but she fills a necessary role of strong disengage from the support position. Assassins are not a problem, mostly because there are enough shielding options to make 100-0 not very easy anymore. Targeted mages are not a problem - Syndra may have too large a power budget in her ult but it requires obvious set up and again happens over time so it can be shielded. And skillshot mages aren't too weak, they often have superior range and lack significant other weaknesses to make up for the fact that nearly all of their damage is avoidable.

If there is a problem, it's simply power creep. Today's average champion is so much stronger than I'd imagine they were in season 1. Instead of a balance of strengths and weaknessES we're seeing everyone with loads of strengths and one weakness that can often be covered by an item or ally. Everyone needs to be capable of everything because it's a team game where the players whine when they lose because they couldn't do X and the teammate that could sucked. New champions have been successful (i.e. popular, in my opinion almost every new release since s4 has too much in their kit) because players want to have all of these options available to them, and riot has just delivered.

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