Evelynn losing hybrid scaling isn't justified

KoKoboto··2 votes·557 views

Reav3 is https://media.giphy.com/media/3oz8xLd9DJq2l2VFtu/giphy.gif

Since Hybrid Evelynn seems to be the topic I see the most frequently I will give the context behind that first. Early on in development we decided that Evelynns Thematic Fantasy matched that of an Assassin, rather then a Diver. We believe that thematic cohesion is important for a champion so we committed to the Assassin gameplay direction rather than the changing her theme to match a diver pattern (we would have probably made her more visually tanky if we went that direction.) Assassins have always been difficult to balance in LoL and we have made great strides in our understanding of how to make healthy Assassins in LoL (Part of the reason her Ult isn't 2 parts is because attaching a Assassins damage to there escape makes them much healthier similar Ekko Ult.)

Hybrid builds tend to work pretty well on fighter/bruiser type champions but can be very problematic on Assassins, which is one of the reasons we can't balance Live Evelynn as an Assassin and also why Akali tends to be more of a top lane sustained fighter than a balanced Assassin. The first problem being that the burst gunblade gives will lead to us having to nerf Evelynn's base kit until it is healthy with gunblade and then she will basically be heavily pushed towards building a gunblade first every game (like Akali.) Even if we take gunblade out of the equation the type of pattern hybrid builds lead to (stick to a target and chase them down) would likely lead us to nerfing Evelynn's burst damage at which point she would have a much harder time functioning as an Assassin. Her current kit would be much weaker as a diver/bruiser so that would leave her in a bad state that we don't think would really be great for Eve or Eve players in the long term.

While I know it feels like we don't care about Eve mains, we do care, its just that we also care about Evelynns future. We feel it will be worse if she ends up unhealthy for the game and then we have to nerf her over and over until she can't function as a Assassin anymore which is something we feel has a high chance of happening if she remained hybrid. We don't feel like that would be great for current or new eve mains in the future.

There's so many problems here like...

Reav has the entirely wrong idea of what hybrid means here. He's thinking Kayle, Kog'Maw, Jax in terms of Hybrid but Evelynn isn't like them at all...

Evelynn CANNOT run up and just DPS people down because she doesn't have the tools to do so. You start building tanky on Evelynn and your damage just becomes non-existent. Now that she no longer has a massive A/S steroid this is even more true cause she can't DPS with AAs. Current Evelynn builds Gunblade and is fine right now O-O... Other assassins like Katarina, Ekko and Fizz (once in awhile) also build gunblade and are fine.

Akali is stupid because of her kit not because of gunblade (the synergy is stupid tho). Who thought it was a good idea to give an ASSASSIN giant amounts of sustain while also being entirely point click? Akali has numerous mechanics that help her stay alive with her stealth/blink, dashes, and sustain. Live Evelynn only has her ultimate and new Evelynn will only have her ultimate. So you can't compare the two champions like AT ALL.

Why do they have to nerf Evelynn if Gunblade synergizes well with her? Gunblade is a super expensive item 3400g so it's not easy to get. If you fall behind early you're kinda screwed and Gunblade's damage begins to fall off.

It just depends on the kit. Kat doesn't have any great ways to stick to a target and weave in auto attacks + AP damage. Eve's Q and her E lend itself to a bruiser/sustained fighter pattern if she builds that way, which wouldn't be super healthy for the rest of her kit. While Kat is an Assassin her kit is much closer to a Mage than many other assassins.

Now that you guys removed Evelynn's giant A/S boost (I'm fine with that) she won't be able to auto attack as much either. Any assassin that spends too much time auto attacking is dying really soon. I'll say this again, bruiser / sustained fighter patterns don't work on Evelynn because she has no defensive steroids. Current Evelynn doesn't have enough base damage to go bruiser, new Evelynn has even less to go bruiser.

First up let's look at new Evelynn's Q 45(+30AP) then 45(+30%AP) 3 times. Total damage is 180(+1.20%AP) over about 3-4s If you get amplified Q damage it's 305(+1.80%AP) over about 3-4s. If you don't build AP that damage is utter GARBAGE and won't put a dent into any champion. You NEED AP in order to get this ability to deal meaningful damage.

Next her W is only good for assassinating. If you're staying in the middle of a fight as a bruiser you're never going to get off the magic resist shred and will be left with a powerful but not as useful slow that doesn't deal damage.

Her E is 90 +4% max health... That's shit for any bruiser... Evelynn needs to go back into stealth to make the most out of it, if you're going back into stealth and going in and out you might as well go assassin. By the way. Why does an assassin have % max health damage... [sg-lux-2]

Finally her ultimate does a ton of base damage so she has that going for her I guess. Like what the fuck is that base damage :| Still, as a bruiser you'll never get the chance to use it to execute because you'd be dead. Evelynn bruiser doesn't work, not enough defensive abilities to work, not enough stick potential. She. Does. Not. Work. Bruiser.

Anyways. Reav didn't successful justify removing Evelynn's ability to build hybrid. Give Evelynn some AD ratios please thank you. How about some on her ultimate, we can take away from AP for some AD because 800 base damage. At least put some on her E that is a physical attack. I'd GLADLY ditch the % health damage for AD ratios, sacrificing her jungle clear for AD ratios. By the way... although live Evelynn has AD ratios a majority of players build proto belt...

Please Riot @-@!! You gave Warwick his AP ratio on Q which was amazing!! Please give Evelynn some AD ratios!! [sg-soraka]

On a side-note... Love the magic resist reduction on her W and I'm glad Riot hasn't ditched that mechanic :D

11 Comments

ThunderSkelett1 votes

Is AP Warwick a viable build?

KoKoboto1 votes

Yes

ThunderSkelett1 votes

never saw it how does it work?

KoKoboto1 votes

Warwick Q has a 90% AP ratio. You nuke and heal for a ridiculous amount. It's kinda like an assassin, kinda like Akali. R -> Q will kill squishies.

ThunderSkelett1 votes

but wont you die very easy?

KoKoboto1 votes

You heal for 70% of the damage the ability deals and get your other healing from your passive. This is such a huge tangent though lol.

What's your opinion on Evelynn losing AD ratios?

ThunderSkelett1 votes

i think riot has a Point but i can see why poeple are a Little mad about it

Häxel1 votes

oh, that was nice redirecting. So i can destroy farthermore your arguments keppo.

"Ap Warwick viabel": no, its a troll build. Unlike Old ww which had a big range on his q and only the ap scaling, new warwick ahs to get close to his targets and has an ad ratio now too. Why you should build ap if you can increase it with ad too? Its nearly the same why tristana or mf should build ap or why katarina should build ad. I tend to liek build ap warwick ina ram cause you could dealt a lot of damage from a safe distance without going. Now while trying to get in q range you probably gonan get hit hard with poke or cc. Adcs can kite you. Ap warwick is so much worse similar to how ap tristana is now so much worse since her rework with the reworked e. Warwick and Katarina can have double scalings cause there other form sucks. You have not built ap and ad on old eve, you have buil either ap or ad and it was ok. Warwick having a q ap ratio makes ap warwick not full viabel. It just makes item 3124 a better purchase and having baronbuff, infernal drakes and elder (all give increased ad AND ap) more meaningfull. Still rageblade is a rsky warwick item and probably more of a niche itembuild. But not as troll as nashors tooth/full ap warwick. Katarina on th other Hand only builds item 3146 and maybe a item 3155 vs ap matchups or an item 3026 in an ad matchup. The rest of her is just ap.

Katarina , Ekko and Fizz (once in awhile) can build Gunblade as well". Ok, gonna throw Leblanc and Ahri there in too. Now you cry about evelynn not having an ad ratio but nearly none of them has any too beside Katarina. Fizz q deals 100% of his ad cause it works like an atuo and implies onhit and his w. You self said "just once in a while". Most Ekkos and Fizz build Protobelt for the health, cdr, cheapprice, mobility and waveclear. You see maybe ekko splitpush with Gunblade cause he already has huge mobility and some SAFE waveclear with his q. But Fizz, the only one beside katarina with an ad ratio, is the most likely candidate of the 4 others to not build Gunblade. Yea, Akali is stupid cause of her kit. She has no waveclear so a protobelt could be fine on her. But with her sustain and mobility she already has (like ahri but more extreme), not needing mana and having an ad ratio on passive and e gunblade is just insane strong on her nad a must buy, even on tank akali.

"Evelynn CANNOT run up and just DPS people down because she doesn't have the tools to do so." Oh, lets count the tools and compare them to the arguably balanced Warwick , Katarina and Leblanc (not so balanced but at least the majority does NOT build Full ad lb) and the probably not so balanced Akali . Also lets compare their suggested roles:

  1. Roles: New Evelynn should be more of an Assassin like Lb (having no ad ratios) or Katarina. Not like odl eveylnn who was like akali kinda a hybrid. Both were/are dives similar to warwick cause they tend more to run you down as to quickly go in, burst and go out like lb or katarina.
  2. Autoattacks: New Evelynn still has tools to stick to a target, similar to how all the other 4 have tools. But while ww builds ad/tank mostly and autoattacks mostly too and akali autos between her abilitys and using the ad of the gunblade good too, a lb jsut autos during her chain. Thats all, she has no ad scalings. And katarina has tim e for some autos, yes. But during her animationcasts and especialy during her ult she does not autoaatack. Evelynn can autoattack during q and w effekt. Her ult is not her maindmg spell like on katarina but her escape and finishing spell.
  3. Tools: The most cc and ability to stick to a target has obviusly ww. Thats why you play him more with attackseed too. Lb has the mobility of her w and the cc of her e, but like i mentioned: No ad scalings/impactful autos to justify ad lb. Katarina has only her e. Yea, its cd is reduced by havind dmg a recenty killed target or collecting a dager. But unlike a ww who can chase an enemy down the river katarina can youse only like to es with the first cast and collecting the q dagger. The w gives her a bit of movementspeed but thats it. Katarina has no cc beside the Gunbladeactive (or if you would build rylais, but than again you would go farther more away from building hybrid. if you wnat you can go frozen mallet but tankkatarina?). ww has w speed, e fear, q followgapcloser (plus insecposibility) and the r as gapcloser/cc). Now where is Evelynn and why should she have no tools? Well she has the w slow on first cast. She has the advanced w witht he charm. She has mulitple procs on her q (more similar and prob strogner as talijah q and not like katarina q. ANd talijah has no ad scalings on this spell as well). She has the advanced e to come close. AND she can use ult not only to escape but also to follow up. There are plenty options of allowing her to autoattack. Gunblade/Rylais slow (with q) would allow her to do even more autos. Imagine having now ad raitos. She would benefit so much more from gunblade as katarina. And even tankeve could come back with a frozen mallet.

There is no true argument on having ad on ehr beside "she always had it". But thats a trash argument if it is for balancewise better to no longer have it. I want to point out one idea from the reddit post. Riot could give Evelynn a lethalaty scaling. This existed ingame only on items and would be new to champions. But items like duskblade are assassinitems and would lead evelynn still more to an assassinrole as to a dps/diver champion who builds trinity, titanic, steraks and deadmans (http://champion.gg/champion/Evelynn/Jungle?league=)

KoKoboto1 votes

New Warick Q has only 50 less range. It gets you into melee now tho and applies on-hit effects which makes it better. Total AD ratio meaning it's free scaling just for leveling. Overall it's stronger in all scenarios including AP. New and old Warick has ultimate so they can gap close. New Warwick has E so that he can dive in easier. So kiting isn't that difficult.

AP Warwick is viable being he can effectively nuke squishies and tanks because of %max health damage while also having deceptively high amounts of sustain. AP Warwick is an assassin.

I am glad that you agree with me on Gunblade. It's not OP and it won't make Evelynn OP, there's other items she can use, in fact right now she uses protobelt more often as you said. Protobelt is safer, less risky, and provides more for the average player. Gunblade is more risky but allows you to snowball harder, trade off.

Glad you agree with me on Akali as well.

You can compare all assassins to one another, not just LeBlanc or Katarina. Zed, Talon, Kha'Zix are all comparable to Evelynn. Her best comparison is to Rengar tho because their play patterns are the most similar. I'm glad you agree with me on that Evelynn is an assasin and wouldn't work as a bruiser.

Evelynn does not have tools to stick onto a target. She used to with her low CD MS buff and her ultimate, now she only has tools for one dive in, then she's left walking around. Most assassins only have tools for one dive in like Rengar, Zed, Talon, Fizz. Also if you recall what I said about Gunblade being more risky but allowing you to snowball harder, that is the reason LeBlanc and pre-nerfed Ahri ran gunblade. They snowballed in lane so easily and gunblade made it even more easy to snowball for them.

Evelynn can auto attack during her Q. So what? The enemy can attack her back and will kill her unless she kills them first. If you go bruiser you won't deal enough damage and you WILL die. She does not have the same amount of survivability as Akali who is stupid. She's a real assassin like Fizz, Talon, Zed, Katarina, Rengar, who all go in once and get the kill but lack when it comes to consistent DPS and staying in a long fight. Her slow requires her to be in melee range, she only gets the enhanced E if she's in stealth. Tank Evelynn cannot come back because she doesn't have the survivability or base damages to be successful. You can try building tank on Evelynn but you will fail. You do not provide enough damage and you do not provide enough pressure (crowd control, tankyness) to be successful. It's like going tank Zed, doesn't work. Tank assassin builds were nerfed when Sunfire + Iceborn Gauntlet was nerfed. That's why we don't see tank Ekko or tank Fizz anymore.

First up let's look at new Evelynn's Q 45(+30AP) then 45(+30%AP) 3 times. Total damage is 180(+1.20%AP) over about 3-4s If you get amplified Q damage it's 305(+1.80%AP) over about 3-4s. If you don't build AP that damage is utter GARBAGE and won't put a dent into any champion. You NEED AP in order to get this ability to deal meaningful damage.

Next her W is only good for assassinating. If you're staying in the middle of a fight as a bruiser you're never going to get off the magic resist shred and will be left with a powerful but not as useful slow that doesn't deal damage.

Her E is 90 +4% max health... That's shit for any bruiser... Evelynn needs to go back into stealth to make the most out of it, if you're going back into stealth and going in and out you might as well go assassin. By the way. Why does an assassin have % max health damage...

Why do you talk so much about AD LeBlanc lol? Where have I ever talked about AD LeBlanc?

Did you even bother reading what I said? My arguments for Evelynn retaining AD scalings are because it increases her build options by a lot and having that optimization as a player feels great. It's nice getting to build different things every game and feeling smart about your decisions. The new Evelynn will end up building the same shit every game now with no alternatives which sucks.

Also that shows 40% winrate with the brusier build... In other words it's not viable... https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Evelynn/Jungle/ http://www.op.gg/champion/evelynn/statistics/jungle http://lolmasters.net/diamond/champion/Evelynn https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/evelynn

All these other websites show AP assassin builds with higher winrates

MetaCosmos1 votes

They've been moving away from hybrid builds/champions for awhile because multiple damage types make champions hard to balance. They either run all over champions (ap yi, pre-rework akali) or their numbers have to be so low that they're irrelevant (looking at you ornn).

KoKoboto1 votes

Jax, Kayle, Kog'Maw, Warwick, Shyvana, Volibear, Teemo, Varus, Xin Zhao, current Evelynn. All of which are at normal winrates and have been for very long times. AP Tryndamere, Yi, and current Akali are stupid because of their kits that are just stupid. I addressed this in OP.

So "your argument is invalid".

Ornn isn't underpowered because of his damage. Tanks should not do damage in the first place. He's underpowered because he has so many requirements to do things.

I don't think he's underpowered btw.

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