Support Stat- Celestial Power

Omnem Occido··39 votes·1,823 views

So, one of the biggest issues with support itemization is that supports rely on items that provide stats that are the same as what everyone else uses: basically, their items have to be lesser, weaker options that are gold efficient because otherwise, other champions that aren't supports would just take their role (A little of this has already happened with Brand, Annie, and Lux). So, how do we make it so that supports are unique unto themselves, and how do we give them power they deserve if they've earned the gold for it? Enter Celestial Power. Basically, it's a stat that utility, heal, and cc will scale with (if the champion has the scaling in their abilities to begin with). So, for example, let's take a champion like Janna. Janna's Q will remain an AP scaling (as it is all magic damage scaling), but now her W's bonus Movement Speed, as well as the active slow scaling, will rely on her Celestial Power, so will her E's damage mitigation and Attack Damage buff scaling, and her ult's heal over time scaling. This will allow for stronger scaling without providing AP magic damage users other item options, allowing supports to have an item set completely unique unto themselves. Tank supports will obviously benefit less from this, but even then, their scaling has never really suffered.

If this idea is well received, I might consider going through every champion and outlining how this change would affect ability stats.

49 Comments

DeathBurst11 votes

It's kinda the same reason AD scaling were introduced in the first place too. At the very beginning, every ability scaled with AP, no matter what. Then they realized it would be much easier to balance items around some sub-set of champs, and so it led to AD versus AP champs, and later to some champs even having scaling based on their Armor/MR/HP, like Voli or Malphite or Leona.

That being said, making this change at this point in time would be a huge disruption, and I'm not sure the benefit would be worth the cost of the disruption. You basically need to rework at least a dozen items and around 20 champs all together, and probably every single AP champ in the long run.

Just for the fun of toying with ideas, how would you go about champs like Lulu/Morga/Zyra, that can be played either full AP and deal respectable damage or Support? If you make their utility scale with UP and their damage with AP, they will deal literally no meaningful damage when built Support, and they will have gutted utility when built AP, so they won't ever compete with "true" Mid champs that always have some baseline utility.

Siegfriedx27 votes

Hybrid scaling. Is way easier to do than it looks like.

They can still build ap, but true supports [like janna and soraka] will benefit more from the new items.

Votable Jester4 votes

They could just make it so damage scales with just AP, heals and shields scale with AP and UP, and CC and mobility scales with just UP.

Keep in mind that the heal/shield scalings don't have to be the same on AP and UP. They could make one stronger than the other for different champions and such.

Darlings4 votes

I think its a good idea, but I agree that "Utility power" would be more fitting.Sona

Omnem Occido1 votes

Fair enough. Also, do you think that damage buffs should fit under "Utility Power" or should it fit under AP, like Sona's Q's on hit buff?

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

Stuff like that and Nami's on-hit damage should scale with AP. Utility is utility, not damage.

And I agree with Utility Power (UP) more. Just imagine Thresh and Alistar buying Celestial power lol

50000000000000002 votes

It could even be both, imo. For supports who can go solo lane with some success (Karma is probably the best example; Sona is a subpar mid pick), they should have both UP and AP scaling to make sure they can be played in both roles, and each can be balanced differently by adjusting AP or UP ratio. Touching AP ratio would barely affect supports, and touching UP ratio would barely affect midlaners.

Sona x Rubick4 votes

CC scaling?

in a game where there isn't a counter to chain cc, i would rather not else i like your idea

Omnem Occido2 votes

Only for abilities that already scale with stats like AP.

Sona x Rubick2 votes

no matter what, cc shouldn't scale, no cc scales with ap right now in that game

Teridax685 votes

Actually, several slows do already scale in potency with AP, e.g. Nami or Janna's slows. I agree, however, that CC durations should not scale with items, as that would double-dip with CDR on uptime and generate both clarity and possible counterplay issues. When Riot updated supports in Preseason 4, they experimented with a resistance ratio on Leona's Q stun duration, but scrapped it, likely for that same reason.

Rozzeta1 votes

It's extremely likely that base values of scaling CC will be lowered as a result. This could end pretty badly (again) if Riot will require a support to purchase 200 AP to recover the base lost and start seeing increases.

Siegfriedx23 votes

I think is the right direction to go, although this name would only make sense on a champion like soraka for example. The name of the status should be more generic like "utility power" or something we could imagine any support using.

Omnem Occido2 votes

Fair enough. I was just throwing it out there because I had the name stuck in my head.

Siegfriedx23 votes

With UP we could build some items that could increase the size of janna barrier AND the ad bonus of it without increasing the damage of her W for example. It's a great idea and the proper evolution to what is already happening with this %heal bonus we are seeing.

Dengeden2 votes

They're lowkey testing that out with item 3114

Top tier support players will always go for low gold income item builds. It's part of why support is so fun, you make due with what little you got. In exchange, you can play a roamer one game, an enabler the other and a pseudo-tank the other. All on the same champ.

Omnem Occido1 votes

That's true about the low cost itemizations, but my problem with that is that you can do that with, say, Brand, or Zyra, who are clearly made for other lanes as control mages. By restricting support items to only helping supports by switching supports' scalings from AP to UP, you provide a clear dichotomy between the two.

Dengeden1 votes

Should you though? It's pretty cool that Brand and Zyra can go for non-scaling builds.

And this does not help item 3303 supports. A champion like Nami basically does what Brand and Zyra do, only she heals you too. And Riot has never liked heals because they invalidate trades. Getting more damage is essential sometimes, it's why so many supports run AD or magic pen reds.

League has never been about creating clear dichotomies. The lines between what each role does get blurry sometimes.

Penns1 votes

Why tho? Do you think support items are too weak?

Siegfriedx24 votes

Supports scale with ap generally. This fucked up our options of itemization through the years and made really hard to balance supports in the way they deserve.

FakeGravity1 votes

to be fair thats the current idea with items haveing "heals and shields" increase, the only thing missing is for it to also scale slows and speed buffs and other utility related stats, and since we are on it...

can we remove the ap scaling from bard heals and instead apply the thresh treatment? make it so his heals scale with the amount of chimes, favoring less ap build and more chime collection, you might even affect the minimum healing part so it be more impactful?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Utility power has been brought up and suggested time and time again. myself being one of the loudest to bring it up. The problem with doing this is that the game would have to be completely rebalanced around said stat, as items would be adjusted and so would scalings and cost etc.

A simpler solution would be to give these supports Mana Regen scalings on their utility instead.

KotetsuTatsumaki1 votes

Good idea in theory, although with how much it would shift the meta it sounds like it would be a nightmare to get the balance right on it.

Omnem Occido1 votes

They don't seem to have any problem throwing the meta off. See jungle changes.

Final Spark Lux1 votes

I'd like to point out that Lux was created with supporting as a focus for her kit. Just because most people play her mid doesn't mean she wasn't designed to support. Also unless they restricted this stat to certain champions, we'd get abuse cases of people just building it for the CC duration. What happens if someone like veigar or nasus decide to build it? Or what if it's just some random support that already has a fairly long CC decides to stack it? Unless you're someone like udyr with tenacity boots and masteries, it seems like this would be quite broken. I wouldn't hold your breath for this to be a thing if I were you though. Honestly support isn't in as bad of a place as people think it is

Omnem Occido1 votes

I never meant to make this so that other people would find it attractive, I meant for this to replace the stats supports use to boost the effects of their abilities that scale. So, like the slow percentage of Janna's Q.

Final Spark Lux1 votes

That's flawed logic. Unless there was overwhelming support for this by the player base, IE people finding it attractive, riot probably isn't gonna take the time to fix something that isn't broken. Janna's Q doesn't slow, it knocks up. As for her Zephyr, which IS the slow, it already scales with AP for the slow %. There's no chance of riot making a stat that could potentially make CC last longer. They nerfed all the game's long CC for a reason, and depending on the champ heals and utility already scale with an existing stat. I know you thought you had a good idea, and I hate to be that person, but it's never gonna happen

Omnem Occido1 votes

Sorry, I meant to write her "W".

Look, I'm not saying make it last longer, I'm saying make what CC does scale with AP, scale with Utility Power. That way, supports can have actually impactful itemizations, without breaking mid lane mages/assassins and AP Bruisers.

AP has to be balanced between Supports, Mages, Bruisers, and Assassins. That is too wide of a swath to make it so that one group isn't broken/hurt by an item designed for another. By adding this, you provide clear distinctions between supports and damage dealers.

50000000000000001 votes

They can be balanced accordingly, though. I had a similar post a while ago, and Morgana's Q duration was brought up as a potentially broken example. The base value can be nerfed for higher UP ratio, or conversely, base value can be buffed for lower UP ratio, if the UP itemization breaks someone.

Starboyˇ1 votes

I don't feel like the cc should scale. Most supports already have a lot of cc so the duration being increase isn't a necessity. As a support player i would really just like to be able to do a little bit more damage so i am not 100% reliant on my team.I like the idea though :D. it should probably be added to the sightstone items so the 800 gold spent has some combat stats

Omnem Occido1 votes

Many supports do have cc that does scale in game.

chipndip11 votes

Balancing this type of change would take way too long. Just imagine how many mid lane mages have cc in their kits, and how many of them now get a scaling stat to increase their potency if they want to. No hanks.

Omnem Occido3 votes

It wouldn't be for mid lane mages, just for supports with cc that scales.

chipndip11 votes

Yet every stat has a general case that everyone can use. If this stat scales shields, slows, buffs, etc., then it'd have to do the same for most/all champs with slows, buffs, shields, and so on.

Omnem Occido1 votes

Think of how abilities used to scale with just AP, but then they made abilities scale with AD to make balancing the champions and the items easier. Now AP is not a stat everyone can use. Zed and Riven are but two examples. Adding UP would just be further dividing abilities so that supports don't have to be balanced on mid-lane mage standards.

chipndip11 votes

Except they can if they get something that applies ap to them (Lich/Nashor's/Hitting a turret with more ap than ad). Adding scalings for the sake of it just complicates everything. The new stat would need some sort of baseline function on top of being used in abilities, and for 130+ champions, this is just too much shit to juggle.

Omnem Occido1 votes

Item functions are not "baseline". Those are niche. There could also be UP functions for items as well. That new Redemption item and Banner of Command could scale with UP.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Omnem Occido,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tVJ2VHVV,comment-id=000900000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-28T20:07:15.400+0000)

Item functions are not "baseline".

THE NEW STAT needs a baseline function, not the items. If you make a new stat, that stat has to do something, and that thing is going to have to be universal or near so to any champion that fits its criteria. You can't just make a stat to shove a few support champs into and call it a day.

Also Banner has never scaled with anything. Why would it scale with jack all now?

Rozzeta1 votes

The same way Riot did not add an utility ratio to non support mages back when the scaling utility was introduced around season 4, I do not believe any champion not considered support (or controller, as they're called now) should have skills scaling with a new support stat.

This'd have the double benefit of having support items being exclusive for support, and not end up abused by other lanes and nerfed/removed, like old HoG or FQC. Similar to how the jungler items requiring Smite so they can't be abused and nerfed due to this asshole ->Ezreal

Sona x Rubick1 votes

you obviously didn't understand

Omnem Occido1 votes

I mean champs who have cc that scales already would be the only ones whose cc scales with UP. Basically, just replace all scaling of utility, healing, and cc with UP scaling.

The Space Cowboy1 votes

This is a great idea! It will also help riot control who enters the bot lane.

Omnem Occido1 votes

That's a bigger part of these ideas.

Teridax681 votes

I'd avoid having CC scale with the utility stat, but otherwise yes, this is a fantastic idea. Supports need a stat to bind to, and AP supports currently have no means of enhancing their own strength without diverting a lot of power towards damage. Support itemization also tends to homogenize supports by providing them with the same set of actives, at the cost of their unique kit power, and we're still not at a stage where supports can feel comfortable building AP without mages exploiting their cheap items. A support-oriented stat could allow supports to feel a lot better about buying items, without too many other champions muscling in on their itemization.

Omnem Occido1 votes

Oh, I just meant for it to replace preexisting scaling for CC like on Janna's slow, etc.

Bardful1 votes

Ruin a lot of off-meta (and meta) choices. Lulu mid, orianna sup or mid (depending where her scaling is), and anything else you can think of (sona mid, also what would her scaling look like).

Omnem Occido1 votes

For supports who play other lanes, hybrid scaling could be something they could utilize, allowing them to balance things like Lulu top/mid or Karma mid without drastically affecting their support game, or vice versa.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Omnem Occido,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tVJ2VHVV,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-27T15:51:53.150+0000)

Brand, Annie, and Lux

lux, like morgana, orianna, or karma is a utility (or support) mage. shes meant to be able to duo lane and solo lane.

Omnem Occido2 votes

Fair enough, and perhaps she could get hybrid scaling on her w.

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