Some reasonable not OP changes to Zoe by a guy who only played Zoe for teh missions

GrReaper96··2 votes·464 views

Too many "nerf Zoe" posts asking for stupidly ridiculous nerfs just because they lost to her or smthg. So i decided to chip in with some more reasonable nerfs that wont dump her in trash tier straight away. (PS im not a Zoe main)

Q

The problem with this skill is that the "high risk high reward" spectrum of this skin is pretty much near the ends. You either miss (which isnt hard) and do nada damage or hit and deal a f-ton of it. What needs to happen is not a direct nerf, but a slight shift so the balance is closer to the middle.

  1. Removing the invisible power "If Zoe moves with the redirected star, it will keep moving until it moves more than 800 units away from her". Zoe is more than capable of aiming her Q from far away once she uses her R. She doesnt need another mechanic to increase her Q range. This would reward Zoe by using her Q-R combo more and less if she tries to hit her Q without her R.

  2. Mana costs increase (60/70/80/90/100 perhaps) Zoe's spamming abilities isnt only due her low cd. Its because of her incredibly low mana costs, especially early game. For example, we see Nidalee with a Q a bit similar to Zoe but not as spammable, even though she has a lower cd. This is because her whole kit needs much more mana than Zoe does. Zoe's Q should have a higher scaling mana costs, since not only her Q but her overall kit uses much less mana compared to other champs.

  3. (OPTIONAL) Reduce the max distance x damage multiplier Currently Zoes Q can deal up to 150% bonus damage at 2550 units. In order to lower her high risk high reward concept, the whole scaling should be lowered to 100% bonus damage at 1950 units. This means the only change in damage is the ceiling cap, and not the actual damage/distance scaling. Hence Zoe doesnt need to do extravagant plays to get that 2550 units, but she also doesnt do as much damage if she somehow does pull it off.

W

RNG problems. Thats kinda it.

  1. Make her W shard drop from cannon minions instead This would help reduce the RNG from "a random caster minion" to "a guaranteed cannon minion". Not much of an effect overall, but should help laners playing against her be able to predict when she will get a spell shard.

  2. (MOST IMPORTANT NERF) Teleport unable to drop by minions (at least before 10 min) BIG issue here. during laning phase a minion drops a tp shard. Zoe then uses all her mana to clear wave and poke enemy. She immediately backs, heal and buy items, and tp back in lane. For free. This makes her laning phase way too safe if the RNG is right.

  3. (OPTINOAL) Make minions drop only certain shards. Corresponding to the 2nd point, minions drop shards should be more predictable. For example minions could only drop item spells and not summoner spells, or vice versa. Some tests would be needed but overall reducing the minion spell pool would also reduce her RNG. If minons only drop lets say hextech items enemies know she could either get item 3030 item 3146 item 3152 from them and know what to expect.

E

Unpopular opinion: Zoes E isnt all that bad. Most common complains :it deals true damage, it lingers if she misses, it travels too far. But actually all these come with their own restrictions. Her E is not as easy to hit at it seems if the enemy is aware and understands her limitations.

  1. Remove the cooldown reduction Its a CC. Hitting it on a champion is by itself a reward. CDR is overkill. Another option is to make it have reduce CDR if it hits a champion DIRECTLY. Since that is not easy to pull off, it is understandable to give it a small reward, but still kinda pushing it.

Well thats about all the main problems i have noticed on her.

TLDR: Zoe has some invisible power that most people dont realize, not just "true damage" or "its a trap". Need to reduce that sht.

7 Comments

Titanium702 votes

Kinda sad that your Q-1 kinda destroys the post since you completely miss how much actual gameplay is involved into this so called "invisible power".

I.e. A Q-Q-R has alot more range than a Q-R-Q but is also harder to hit. Angled Q to avoid obstacles will have a greatly decreased range if you dont position your selfe perfectly... and so on.

Kai Guy1 votes

As a whole I also think Players need to be a hero more often and body block the Q when they have a squishy that's falling asleep.

BlackEyesBlue1 votes

I really don't get it...

I've been playing a lot of Zoe since release; and in my games laners are smart enough to use minions as shields, they use a mobile move when hit with E before falling asleep (if thay have one) and come late game, they move as a big cluster and the tanks block my Qs as much as they can.

Here's the thing.... I'm bronze 3!!!!!

Am I really to believe bronzes as a whole have learned to play against Zoe better then "high elo"? :P

MysterQ1 votes

That is good for them. Even I will admit, the first time I played vs Zoe, I dodged like 90% of her attacks. And she never became relevant to one-shot me (although she came close). But we are both low ELO. The Zoe who was shooting at me, probably isn't as good as a Challenger Zoe shooting. Likewise, you are not as good as a Challenger Zoe.

I read an article a long time ago. Faker will make more than 100x more clicks per minute than I will. That means he can react faster, can shoot Qs more often, can reposition Qs better. Everything will be on a different level compared to what you or I can shoot the Q at. And even if most of the Qs miss or do normal damage, it is spammed at such a high frequency. If even one hits you while asleep from range, it feels disgusting. The spamming is a problem.

Kai Guy2 votes

In Gold and Plat you see more Zoes using QQR. A lot of zoe players don't realize that the Q will travel even after the second cast in relation to movement, so you see them cast Q, then cast R then cast Q. When you can QQR for the same range and have the extra time during R for a lichbane auto/W/E cast. I don't know if this mechanics gonna be left alone or patched out by riot. Also lower elos... theres a unhealthy number of players who are using default casting. Smartcast/quick cast is FTW.

But over all the amount of folks complaining about zoe is ridiculous, "kai guy she op she 1 shot me with her Q from 100% hp." "how" "well she landed E used R lich ban autoed and hit a full 2000+ unit Q. Just 1 shotted me with Q man." [zombie-brand-facepalm] bro, if it takes 4/5ths of a champions kit to drop you its not a 1 shot from a single ability. Its fine to have issues with her damage, or with her Q but I wish people wouldn't exaggerate and be misleading when they try to discusses said issues.

BlackEyesBlue1 votes

So? I'm not challenger and I'm never going to be. That makes me on par with about 95% of the player base.

That still dosn't change my earlier comment. I studied Zoe on release and for about 3 days, people either didn't know how she worked and fed; or didn't understand how she worked and fed HER.

Now I watch my elo peers counter play her quiet well. If bronze players can adapt to bronze Zoe's ? I would be pretty shocked if Challengers and certainly pro's can't do the same...

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I think you've got some good ideas here, but because the topic is controversial and some of your proposals are a bit extreme, it's getting buried in the controversy.

Maybe doing all of these changes at once would be too much of a nerf, but maybe not. I'll address each one with my thoughts below:

Q1: Not entirely certain I know how this works, would need you to clarify. What do you mean by "moves with the redirected star" ? Do you mean walking with it? Or only mobility spells? Either way I approve of the limit on the range, this would lower the maximum use case with regards to damage. Assuming I understand it correctly though, I like the idea.

Q2: seems reasonable at first glance, it might be problematic later in the game though since she relies on combos and having high mana costs would severely limit those. Maybe the way to go here would be having higher costs early on but keeping lower costs at higher ability ranks.

Q3: Seems a reasonable way to trim power and increase reliability / predictability for both Zoe and her opponents.

W1: I like this idea a lot. By tying it to cannon minion it becomes much more predictable and fair. 10/10 this is a fantastic idea.

W2: I don't have enough experience with or against Zoe with regards to this. Your reasoning seems sound though.

W3: Yeah I could see this being a good idea. Limiting the active pools to reduce what she gets is certainly an effective way to reduce RNG and unpredictability. However I'd caution against being too heavy handed with this. Taking away too much of the unpredictability and randomness might take a lot of fun out of the ability for the player.


My own proposal:

Instead of having a large pool of actives that are picked from randomly (or with a drop table of some sort... whatever it is that Riot does currently) different actives should drop from different kinds of minions. And the ability should be changed so that instead of it picking up items from a dropped minion, give it an internal CD so that when it is available to her, the next minion she kills will drop an active, instead of it choosing the minion randomly for her.

For example, give the ability an internal CD somewhere on the longer side, maybe 15-20 seconds. When it is up, the next minion she kills drops an active. The type of active depends on the type of minion. Hextech actives (and maybe some other magical actives) could drop from caster minions, while actives from another category of items could drop from melee minions. And lastly maybe summoner spells should drop from cannon minions.

I dunno if my idea would work or be balanced, but I thought I might as well entertain it as a thought experiment and share it to see what you think. If you like it enough then we can discuss it in further detail.

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