Does Edge of Night really need to exist?

GrReaper96·Oct 20, 2016·81 votes·6,135 views

AD champs can already go for againts AP While AP champs only get againts AD Seriously why are we adding yet another item for AD champions to counter AP champions?

100 Comments

Pierce The VealOct 20, 20167 votes

I think it's purpose is to be the AD caster only equivalent of Maw. Instead of giving them extra sustain and a shield, it gives them a one time use spellshield.

Do note the spellshield can be popped by someone sneezing, sooo it's not fair to say that it's Zhonya's tier. Thing is, the spellshield and Zhonya's active both are alike, in that they work against everyone, not just mages or adcs or burst or whatnot.

PennsOct 20, 20162 votes

If the channel from EoN can really be interrupted by damage, Ill probably be fine with it, actually.. Provided AD mid laners stop buying Maw.

KaiokoOct 20, 20168 votes

Why would they though the AD you get off of combining Maw, Mercurial and Edge of Night is insane and will be make you unkillable against an AP damage dealer. This means you really only feel threatened by the ADC as an assassin which isn't a real threat since you can just blow them up.

Pierce The VealOct 20, 20164 votes

{quoted}

If the channel from EoN can really be interrupted by damage, Ill probably be fine with it, actually.. Provided AD mid laners stop buying Maw.

Pretty sure they will stop buying Maw because it no longer has armor pen.

HazyCloud7Oct 20, 20163 votes

Lol if people really believe this is going to be the case. Building both Edge of Night + Maw + Merc treads will result in AD assassins and fighters being able to outright ignore AP mages.

TheStevenWuOct 20, 20166 votes

item 3102 is designed for tanks. Assassins only buy this item if they are seriously losing and need to build tanky.

item 3139 is designed for ADCs who provides consistent damage and therefore actually benefits from the lifesteal.

The only items that is even relevant in this discussion is item 3156 , which is basically the same item except for the last defensive perk.

But in general, why so many AD items? Simply because there are more AD roles than AP roles. All AP champion roles are basically "use spell and burst down people". AD roles are a bit more complex and need separate itemization.

Woook3rOct 20, 20165 votes

what is stopping the ap champs from building banshees or even randuins?

Ionian VulpixOct 20, 201620 votes

The fact that those items gives no benefit to mages?

TequilaZombieOct 20, 201611 votes

Well, OP put Banshees in there and it doesn't give any benefit to AD champions.

NilokOct 20, 20163 votes

Except making it so AP can't kill them, not the other way around.

TurquoiseYoshiOct 21, 201610 votes

So then why can't APs build Randuin's?

doombotMECHAOct 21, 20162 votes

because, unlike maw or merc it gives no damage and it doesn't give the single-defensive-item-value of banshee's

TheHappyReaperzOct 21, 20167 votes

AD who can build item 3102 , and still be useful : Aatrox Gragas Sion Shyvana Olaf Illaoi Urgot Kled Hecarim Graves Irelia Nasus XinZhao Yorick LeeSin Pantheon Trundle RekSai Garen , etc

AP Champs who can build item 3143 , and can still be useful: Rammus Nunu Maokai Zac Shen Leona Braum Amumu

How many of these AP champs typically face high-burst damage assassins, in the mid lane?

TequilaZombieOct 21, 20162 votes

Gragas is AD?

On a second note: Any champion can go out of it's way for one defensive item and still be useful. Specially ranged mages who pack decent amounts of utility.

TheHappyReaperzOct 21, 20161 votes

My bad with the Gragas, but my point still stands. If you're a mage and your building pure tank items, you won't be useful. Few ranged mages pack a nice amount of utility with most mages having a single ccing effect.

morris1Oct 21, 20161 votes

Ok, I don't wanna be grasping at straws, but how can you possibly consider Braum AP?

TheHappyReaperzOct 21, 20161 votes

All of his damaging spells scale off AP

Off Meta EvanOct 22, 20161 votes

he does magic damage.

TequilaZombieOct 21, 20161 votes

I'm not saying going for pure defense. I'm saying that one or two pure defensive items don't really hurt mages all that much. Specially when they have Rylais and RoA for some nice Health + Crap loads of AP as options.

MogarlOct 22, 20161 votes

item 3143 - The active is simply not useful too ranged mages. In addition later in the game if enough crits hit you for the damage reduction to be relevant you are already dead. item 3068 - Useless passive for a ranged ap item 3742 - while not bad, kind of meh for a non-melee champion. item 3056 - Who the fuck buys this?

None of the armor health items are 100% efficient on a ranged ap. You are wasting gold no matter which one you buy.

item 3075 - Even tanks have a have time justifying buying this. item 3025 - Almost ok, but too get the health to go with means you likely bought a Rylais so the spellblade passive is wasted gold. item 3110 - except for it's lack of health not bad at all. Armor, CDR, and mana. The passive isn't bad, and takes effect before you've gotten hit once, but still isn't as general use as Banshee's spellshield.

Frozen heart is probably the most justifiable defensive armor item for a Medium range ap to buy. Although the cdr wouldn't necessarily be as nice as in the past with it's current availability.

ZonkmanOct 21, 20161 votes

i'm sorry but you used Aatrox and useful in the same sentence and i just wanted to point out that you made a mistake

ExtviaOct 20, 20162 votes

It'd be overpowered if you could buy a hefty tank item and still get damage out of it. It's a tradeoff.

WenslessOct 20, 20167 votes

{quoted}

what is stopping the ap champs from building banshees or even randuins?

Don't know why you're getting downvoted tbh, it's not like Banshees is exclusive to AD champions...

I often build either Banshees / Guardian angel on AP casters so yeah.

GrReaper96Oct 21, 20167 votes

Yes banshee is a universal item and everybody can buy it. But there arent any universal items for AD countering.

Hinagiku33Oct 21, 20162 votes

item 3143 item 3075 item 3110 item 3512

Randuin's: Health and Armor make it very good for stopping AD burst. The passive helps so the Marksman needs an extra hit or so to kill you.

Thornmail: If you have a ton of Health from all the AP/Health items, then this gives a ton of Armor to boost your effective HP against physical damage.

Frozen Heart: Tons of Armor, Mana, and CDR. Goes very well with the AP/Health items. **Also consider that the Attack Speed aura triggers the bonus damage for CC on item 3151 **.

ZZ'Rot: Honestly, it's a pretty handy item for getting some bonus Armor/MR and the portal can help with sieges and shoving lanes.

Are they AP/Armor items? No. But Banshee's isn't an AD/MR item and many melee fighters are practically forced to buy it. Mages already have the incredible safety of range and utility - just sacrifice 1 item slot on a non-AP item.

SkiasOct 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LXAkYIy3,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-21T05:02:19.894+0000)

Randuin's: Health and Armor make it very good for stopping AD burst. The passive helps so the Marksman needs an extra hit or so to kill you.

Thornmail: If you have a ton of Health from all the AP/Health items, then this gives a ton of Armor to boost your effective HP against physical damage.

Frozen Heart: Tons of Armor, Mana, and CDR. Goes very well with the AP/Health items. **Also consider that the Attack Speed aura triggers the bonus damage for CC on **.

ZZ'Rot: Honestly, it's a pretty handy item for getting some bonus Armor/MR and the portal can help with sieges and shoving lanes.

Are they AP/Armor items? No. But Banshee's isn't an AD/MR item and many melee fighters are practically forced to buy it. Mages already have the incredible safety of range and utility - just sacrifice 1 item slot on a non-AP item.

Thornmail is a noobtrap and frozen heart is useless to a lot of champs. Zzrot is a terrible combat item.

JavelinJoeOct 20, 20165 votes

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Sariat1Oct 20, 201620 votes

You talk about time based kits but you include Zyra ult as point and click CC? It has like a 2 second delay before it knocks up. Also, Veigar only has 1 point-and-click ability. Also, mages gain damage at range for what they lack in mobility. Name me a single Assassin that doesn't have some sort of mobility skill.

JavelinJoeOct 20, 20162 votes

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Sariat1Oct 20, 20169 votes

By the same filtering method, Diana Karthus KogMaw Evelynn don't have easy disengage or hard CC.

TequilaZombieOct 20, 20161 votes

Diana has her AoE knock up. Eve has her slow cleanse with mobility, but since when is Eve a mage? Or Kog?

I don't wanna be that guy... ohh wait, yes I do. Can you please stop using the bullshitty categories as an argument?? It's beyond stupid.

Sariat1Oct 20, 201614 votes

As soon as he used malz and xerath as assassins, I thought it appropriate to respond in kind.

AetherPhoenixOct 22, 20161 votes

For Diana it's not a knock up its a pull... Thats not disengage.

TequilaZombieOct 22, 20161 votes

I meant it as the hard CC part.

VekknaOct 20, 201613 votes

Zyra E is a skillshot, not a point-and-click. A fairly slow-moving skillshot at that.

It's also not a "hard cc," it's a snare, which is a soft cc since you have full control of your buttons other than movement.

ErdamonOct 20, 20164 votes

Don't forget that the Maw is getting buffed as well

TequilaZombieOct 20, 20168 votes

It's not being buffed. It's stats are being changed. Less damage, more MR. No more Armor Pen (or Lethality, if you wanna talk in season 7 terms). When active, you get more AD.

It's overall a weaker offensive item all around with less AD and no more Armor Pen, which was the attractive part for many assassins. When the shield procs, it gives better stats with it's bonus AD, but it's conditional and only lasts for a while. Unless I'm really behind and need to survive a mage busting my ass, I'm not buying it anymore for assassins.

EDIT: (For fighters the item was buffed, as they want to stay in the fight for a long period of time, even if low)

ErdamonOct 20, 20164 votes

Tbh potential +70 Ad, 50 mr, 10% cdr and a 300+ magic damage blocking shield with 10% life steal/spell vamp still sounds pretty sweet (counting down the stats that this item gives made me realize how fucking busted it is)

TequilaZombieOct 20, 20166 votes

Imagine that you are an assassin. You are in a flanking position. What do you do? A) You go in to try to take the kill; or B) Takes free magic damage until you're at 30% hp so you gain 20 extra AD.

Assassin put out their damage before they are low. When they are low, they want to retreat, not go in. The item could give 100 AD when it procs, if the squishy assassin is runnning for his life he's not going to use it.

The way it was redesigned was to appeal to fighters. It should bring about the same damage to a champion when it procs, and fighters will still be in the fray when it happens, so they will use the bonus damage. Assassins on the other hand will be looking for a way to retreat, as their abilities will be on their fairly long CDs and they are useless when only auto attacking.

SkiasOct 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Imagine that you are an assassin. You are in a flanking position. What do you do? A) You go in to try to take the kill; or B) Takes free magic damage until you're at 30% hp so you gain 20 extra AD.

Assassin put out their damage before they are low. When they are low, they want to retreat, not go in. The item could give 100 AD when it procs, if the squishy assassin is runnning for his life he's not going to use it.

The way it was redesigned was to appeal to fighters. It should bring about the same damage to a champion when it procs, and fighters will still be in the fray when it happens, so they will use the bonus damage. Assassins on the other hand will be looking for a way to retreat, as their abilities will be on their fairly long CDs and they are useless when only auto attacking.

Not when you can go in and out super easy with low CDs and resets.

TequilaZombieOct 21, 20161 votes

Sorry, but which AD assassin has low CD engage/disengage?

Apart from Kha'Zix with evolved E, all other AD assassins struggle with their CDs.

And this is not even the point. The main point is: the assassin playstyle is NOT about staying in a fight after his burst is used. It is not about lingering in when he's being focused. It's to go in and go out.

The New Maw will favor champions who want to stay in combat, even if they are being focused by giving them more damage, as well means to recover the lost health and a shield to give them enough time to do so.

It has it's uses in an assassin, but it's sub-optimal unless he's behind and needs a DEFENSIVE option against mages that won't hinder his damage too much.

The item is being tailored for champions as Jax, Trynd, Shyv, Olaf and other durable fighters. Not for a Zed, who will engage, do his thing and gtfo before he dies.

SkiasOct 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, but which AD assassin has low CD engage/disengage?

Apart from Kha'Zix with evolved E, all other AD assassins struggle with their CDs.

And this is not even the point. The main point is: the assassin playstyle is NOT about staying in a fight after his burst is used. It is not about lingering in when he's being focused. It's to go in and go out.

The New Maw will favor champions who want to stay in combat, even if they are being focused by giving them more damage, as well means to recover the lost health and a shield to give them enough time to do so.

It has it's uses in an assassin, but it's sub-optimal unless he's behind and needs a DEFENSIVE option against mages that won't hinder his damage too much.

The item is being tailored for champions as Jax, Trynd, Shyv, Olaf and other durable fighters. Not for a Zed, who will engage, do his thing and gtfo before he dies.

New Khazix can literally sit near bushes and repeatedly burst you with true damage.

HazyCloud7Oct 20, 20166 votes

Assassins will still buy it.

President Swa1nOct 20, 20162 votes

Why?

HazyCloud7Oct 20, 20166 votes

Because the shield and MR it provide are excellent at dealing with AP burst. And it still gives a decent amount of AD, 50 is not bad at all and when the previous item they buy (edge of night, youmous or duskblade) gives 60 or more, then they aren't going to be hard pressed for AD anyway.

Buying Edge of Night + Hexdrinker + Merc treads will allow any AD champion to more or less ignore any AP assassin/mage's burst until about 30 mins.

President Swa1nOct 21, 20161 votes

SO I have two questions:

-How would you recommend changing Maw in order for assassins to completely stop using it?

-Do you think Hexdrinker should build into more than one item?

EDIT: This is also a good point to consider:

{quoted}

Imagine that you are an assassin. You are in a flanking position. What do you do? A) You go in to try to take the kill; or B) Takes free magic damage until you're at 30% hp so you gain 20 extra AD.

Assassin put out their damage before they are low. When they are low, they want to retreat, not go in. The item could give 100 AD when it procs, if the squishy assassin is runnning for his life he's not going to use it.

The way it was redesigned was to appeal to fighters. It should bring about the same damage to a champion when it procs, and fighters will still be in the fray when it happens, so they will use the bonus damage. Assassins on the other hand will be looking for a way to retreat, as their abilities will be on their fairly long CDs and they are useless when only auto attacking.

HazyCloud7Oct 21, 20161 votes

I don't believe hexdrinker should build into multiple items. As far as pushing assassins away from building maw at all, I don't believe that's possible without simply gutting the item for everybody. Itemization for fighters like Riven/Jayce and Ad assasins inherently overlaps. To prevent them from building it you'd have to lower the AD a lot, and doing so will hurt fighters too.

Personally I would completely scrap Edge of Night, keep Maw as is on PBE and up the cost of hexdrinker by 100 gold. Assassins will still get Maw but it wont be overbearing anymore because it provides CDR and hexdrinker will take longer to get.

Not sure why that quote is relevant at all. Blocking one spell isn't going to save an assassins life, Maw is still going to be a MUCH better item when it comes to dealing with AP burst obviously. Provides more MR, and provides a magic damage shield.

TequilaZombieOct 21, 20161 votes

Blocking one spell isn't going to save an assassins life

I'm not sure you understand the purpose of Edge of the Night. Then again ~~judging by your match history~~, you don't play assassins, so it's understandable.

Edge of the Night is meant as an engage tool. You're not going to use it in the middle of the fight to try and block the burst damage of a Veigar or a hard CC ability when trying to go away. You charge the shield and go in. You will use it as an anti-peel. The item is not about surviving burst, it's about avoiding CC when going in. Specially with the more telegraphed, slower engages of the current assasins.

Maw is still going to be a MUCH better item when it comes to dealing with AP burst obviously.

Maw is THE anti AP burst item and will continue to be. Assassins buy it now because it gives them a way to deal with mages, as well as some AD AND Armor pen. Assassins may still buy it after the update, but it will be as a "Holy fuck this Brand is one shotting me and surviving my burst, I need more damage on all ins" item. It will provide less offensive power (don't underestimate the difference the Armor Pen makes) and more defensive one in it's idle state. When it procs, it will give overall more damage, possibly allowing a comeback in a losing fight.

Those two items serve two completely different purposes. AD assassins only buy Maw now because they lack any defensive option vs burst mages that don't makes them useless when doing their jobs. Edge of the Night is here to hopefully fix that.

HazyCloud7Oct 30, 20161 votes

LeBlanc and Zed are my 2nd and 4th highest champions in terms of mastery, but I wouldn't expect you to bother looking that up even though it wouldn't take more than like 10 seconds. If it's not in their recent match history they don't play it right? The only assassin you actually play a lot is Shaco but I know nothing about assassins. Too funny.

Anyway AD assassins are not the only champions that will make use of Edge of Night btw. It's going to be a viable option for fighters like Jayce, and for really aggressive Vi builds as a replacement for Maw. Both of which are champions I play frequently. And we may see some adcs buy it as well. This isn't an AD assassin only item. As for the rest of your point....yes it will serve as an engage tool. But certainly not in teamfights. There is so much CC in this game that blocking one wont save you, as always timing and decision making will separate good assassin players from bad ones.

As I've said before: AD Assassins will build both Maw + Edge of Night against high burst AP matchups and its going to give them complete and total dominance in those lanes.