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Why Riot will keep nerfing "shit" around the LCS

Mira Arya Enthe··99 votes·11,999 views

Like with Poppy or Nidalee. The LCS is nothing but a precursor to the SoloQ to follow. People bitch when Graves ends up OP for a patch or two but don't realize that Riot nerfing around the LCS is to prevent just that. Nerfing Support Malz before it becomes too much oppressive cancer, nerfing Vlad before he dominated SoloQ for free last year.

Yes the Malz nerfs were warranted. This is from somebody with 80k mastery on him and 450 Malz games before mastery existed. The rework was a failure and like Azir, Aatrox or Kalista he has to be guttered until fixed. Does it make me sad? Yes. Is it unreasonable? No.

Now are there special immunity cases of bias? Maybe, but believe it or not Riven is not used in the LCS other than a situational pick in S3-4 and I am pretty sure Yasuo never has been(may be wrong). Lee might see some favoritism we have that one quote people take out of context where they don't like nerfing him out of meta because he makes for good show. But I ain't gettin' into that.

But no sorry. Riot should always balance around the best players playing the champions in the ideal way with good team cordination, with adjustments for Bronze-Plat only if champions get way out of hand(See Yi last time he was viable). Because no other form of balancing makes sense.

If a champion pubstomps low tier soloQ because they are strong in LCS it is fine for a brief period to see if people learn how to beat them. Otherwise it is most likely they are a binary design that is too easy to succeed with when strong in low tier, but require being that strong for high tier. In otherwords rework material.

Funny how the OP champs from LCS end up plaguing SoloQ a month later and people bitch "It's been OP for AGES how did you not see when Bergfakerdoublehai picked it!" But then when Riot does the appropriate thing and nips it in the bud before the sheep catch on "OMFG nurf muh champ fur ur money make lcs!?!?!"

Sorry. If something as binary as Malzahar is being oppressively dull in LCS to too large of a success. It will find a way to be oppressive in SoloQ within a month. Deserves nerfs.

If you'd rather balance for Bronze-Plat however, brace for the Riven buffs as she performs badly below Diamond.

83 Comments

Sahn Uzal98 votes

Riot has openly admitted that they do balance around LCS. Aswell as the Higher ranks of Solo Queue, aswell as the lower ranks of Solo Queue.

When you start to think about how many different groups of players Riot balances around, combined with how hard it is to balance a game like lol in the first place, I think Riots balance team is very, very underappreciated.

Mira Arya Enthe21 votes

Yes. Very much so. Plus unlike Blizzard they didn't leave Frost better than Fire for a decade : ^)

Most games are WAY less balanced than this one with far fewer attributes to balance. Especially Korean online RPGs.

HalcyonDweller6 votes

<3 Blizzard hate!

They have the worst balancing policies I've seen anywhere in gaming.

It's as if they balance by spotlight. Allowing one thing to shine for a while so that players re-invest time and money to use it, then switch something else so everyone has to do it all over again.

The only good thing about that policy is it punishes meta sheep. It still sucks for everyone who has mains though.

Faceroll Tactics5 votes

See Sejuani in season 5

Nerfed then had her items nerfed and got no compensation, riot stated it's because every champion should have their time in the spotlight and Sejuani had her time

Dr Poro3 votes

Indeed. I love the 2-weekly patches of Riot. They constantly monitor the game at all levels op play and target the pain points as well as just some quality of life adjustments. They keep the game fresh at all times.

Anidan6 votes

I will never understand how some of those Korean RPGs are balanced. It's like a blindfolded dartboard toss. They make some fun games but the balance is... well, it's something else. My brother was telling me about the really weird balance in Blade & Soul, for example - fun game, but overall balance levels across the board look like they come from people who play the game but don't test.

It makes me appreciate GW2 more, that's for sure.

Orangesilk1 votes

They used to not give a single fuck about the lower ranks of solo Q, and those were good times, 57% winrate Heimerdinger.

dEAdbUs1 votes

And best Heimer main reached only Master, while Challenger is still full of Lee Sins and Rivens. Winrate is not everything, mate.

Orangesilk1 votes

Yes, those were good times, is what I'm saying, when they didn't balance around the lowest ELO.

Now Heimer is balanced in bronze, and literally useless in Plat+, same as Cho or Illaoi.

RiotRiot Wav3Break63 votes

It gets rough sometimes but posts like this make it worth it. God bless <3. item 3070 item 3070

HateDaddy23 votes

{quoted}

It gets rough sometimes but posts like this make it worth it. God bless <3. item 3070 item 3070

As much as people spam item 3070 item 3070 images to denote crying, you'd think them bitches would be stacked by now. "My god, why are staffs and swords coming out of my eyes now?"

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

Have you seen how long those things take to stack? It's ridiculous.

Lauchmelder1 votes

Well building it on someone not named Ezreal, Cassiopeia or Ryze is kinda.... well, it's not quite the best thing you can do. (I obviously left out a few champions where it's still a viable option)

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

I would really like for Tear to be buffed so more champions can use it, but of course it's core on Ezreal, who is already good and who no one likes being meta, Cass, who is already good, and Ryze, who is impossible to balance and destroys the LCS whenever he's slightly OK, meaning it basically can't be buffed.

Lauchmelder1 votes

The main problem tear has is that only a few champions can use it due to not being gated by cooldowns too much.

Maybe the mechanic needs to be changed to stacking only to 200 + hitting a certain amount of skills for it to become fully stacked.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

It gets rough sometimes but posts like this make it worth it. God bless <3. item 3070 item 3070

Who are you and what have you done with Meddler-sama ?

SirPurrr1 votes

{quoted}

It gets rough sometimes but posts like this make it worth it. God bless <3. item 3070 item 3070

Imo, the game can only be competently balanced if it is done around the highest levels. Otherwise, champs have a very lopsided viability curve as players gain strength. This would make players feel they wasted time trying to achieve mastery on that champion and that their effort isn't rewarded.

Weasel Kensei3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tMAMpWfE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-06T12:57:07.476+0000)

Riot has openly admitted that they do balance around LCS. Aswell as the Higher ranks of Solo Queue, aswell as the lower ranks of Solo Queue.

When you start to think about how many different groups of players Riot balances around, combined with how hard it is to balance a game like lol in the first place, I think Riots balance team is very, very underappreciated.

You know... for the most part Im with you. This is how I feel most of the time.

Then we get stuff like last years XinZhao buffs when he was in a good spot and those buffs shoot him stragiht to a 60% win rate... and everyone is like "Rito wut da fuq!? We told you not to!"

So, yeah, the balance team... mixed bag as far as Im concerned. I mean maybe its mostly good, but If I gave you a paper bag with 85% peanuts, and 10% rabbit turds, and 5% rocks and said "Here eat up" would you thank me for it? This is how I feel about the balance team and the shit like the Xin buffs is definitely the 5% rocks they sneak in.

deadlychuck2 votes

I feel sorry for riot's balance team, not only do they have to deal with the community.

They also have to deal with the absolute trash that their design and rework teams put out that are mechanically impossible to actually balance.

Yasuo Malzahar LeeSin Thresh

The same rework team they are dependent on to actually fix the mechanically broken things.

TyrekGoldenspear32 votes

So what you're saying is that Riot's balancing team is in fact not a bunch of idiots; they simply have different priorities than the majority of players which the players may not agree with?

I can dig it.

Sahn Uzal10 votes

That's a pretty good way to sum it up

manbearswine4 votes

{quoted}

So what you're saying is that Riot's balancing team is in fact not a bunch of idiots; they simply have different priorities than the majority of players which the players may not agree with?

I can dig it.

That's not exactly what he is saying. The priorities aren't necessarily different, it's just that lower elos aren't very good at realizing what their own problems are.

Glory ln Death4 votes

Or predicting what problems they're about to start having.

ProfDrDeath12 votes

I honestly think that it was only a question of time for Malzahar to be played as a primary support, even with pre-rework Malza. That ult is super-reliable lockdown. And with the changes to dedicated supports with that kind of lockdown (Taric lost his targeted stun, for instance) and the increased demand for reliable CC generated by the assassin rework, one thing leads to the next.

The other thing with LCS is, they generally favor low-counterplay abilities, as the pro level is not plaqued by the bad decision-making that sometimes counters these abilities in lower-tier play.

Bladerunner77775 votes

I agree

I don't even care that Malz' new nerfs are going to put him at like sub-45% winrate. Shit like new Katarina makes playing Nami agonizing. As long as I have my point and click 2.5 second suppress, I will keep playing Malz

Ahristocats7 votes

My issue isn't really that they nerf champions for LCS My issue is that do it partially

for example, recently Rengar was nerfed because of LCS(riot said it themselves) but so much champions are problematic in LCS. Why only Rengar?

the problem is that if you only nerf Rengar for the LCS, the outcome is inexistent

LCS is still bad because of massive imbalanced there Rengar mains end up even more sad because they'll have even more troubles to make him work the mathematical equation of all of this result in nothing but negativity

If riot really wishes to balance LCS, then they have to buff a lot of healthy champions(Braum for instance) and nerf a lot of champions else nothing is achieved

Sincerly -gH

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

Difference is you have a reasonable complaint. That is that they should go all the way in balance. Most people just want them to balance for peasant tier play, B-G. I'd rather thing if I put in the work to be good at a game it would be balanced for maximum skill and effort, not minimal.

That said I agree Rito gets sluggish about their changes, and doesn't hit up enough key champions at once, but as Tidal said it is a huge game with a lot to account for, so I cut them some slack.

Ahristocats3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tMAMpWfE,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-04-06T15:16:25.954+0000)

That said I agree Rito gets sluggish about their changes, and doesn't hit up enough key champions at once

Especially buffs, i cannot remember a champion buffed for the LCS except during their yearly "lcs patch" (where they buffed riven and someone else for lcs)

They nerf rengar/rek'sai/shen/ashe ect.. a lot for the LCS but they never buff competitive champions like braum who aren't seeing any plays

to be fair this is my only complain, they don't buff champions for LCS only nerf them

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

I agree! I'd love to see Sejauni, Shyvana or Udyr in LCS. Three of my favorite champions. Sadly they have not been very loved recently. Understanding Udyr is Binary and Shyvana a bit binary. but not sure why Riot dislikes Sej other than the fact that she is a reliable tank. But oh well, maybe someday.

Ahristocats2 votes

To be fair udyr was never nerfed He used to be meta in season 3 or season 4 in competition and then without any nerfs he just fell on the floor

my bet would be because of the powercreep the game received making him inferior to other junglers that had risen They're buffing him a lot in the next patch They're also buffing j4 who is a competitive picks but they aren't buffing them because they suck in lcs, simply because they're extremely bad everywhere

as for shyvana i'm pretty sure she isn't balanceable in LCS, i don't remember her being balanced to be fair

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Udyr was never nerfed? Are u drunk? LAst year alone he received like 4nerfs in a row.

Spacesuit Spiff6 votes

LCS and soloq are different games, and LCS needs to be balanced much more aggressively. Those guys will actually capitalize on balance issues, and create an absurdly boring meta if you let them. Meanwhile soloq be like "ok we've got all the best champs, time to see which adc decides to go 0/8 regardless"

Big Lincoln4 votes

feels good that nobody I play is LCS material

personal freelo, just for me :-)

Mizaya4 votes

LCS meta is much different from solo queue, people need to realize that and stop blindly following competitive picks.

GeminiRune3 votes

If that's really the case, how come there are champion changes on the patch notes that are completely irrelevant to competitive meta? People will watch, people will imitate. I can almost bet that you are one of them as well. But not all of it winds up getting changed in some way, shape, or form. If changes were based off the upper echelon of play, there there would be a few champions that deserve no love or change. And buffing some weaker in higher level champion will only over inflate the lower level of play. Sometimes champs get nerfed out of competitive relevance (see recent example Corki). So collectively, what is your point?

I don't need to follow a thing being played higher up, and if I do then I'm putting my own flair to it. I always say though, it's a game first and a competitive scene second. If it were the other way around, half of this game wouldn't be as fun anymore.

Mira Arya Enthe10 votes

I am a Shyvana one trick. She hasn't been LCS viable in two years.

rtbf2256182412 votes

The last 50+ games she's been used in have all been within the last two years with a win rate of 50%.

SoyUnPrededor2 votes

Not even remotely true, as two years ago is before even mid year season 5, y'know, before cinderhulk meta and the juggernaut patch.

rtbf2256182412 votes

I think the main argument here is that they balance around team play and solo performance has become more and more irrelevant throughout the years. So if Malzahar is broken in perfectly coordinating, premade 5v5 compositions then yeah, he is broken in that manner.

In SoloQ, fuck no. He's weak enough as it is on his own and his trusty random Adc partner. It's not like we can become premade with randoms.

Matthew Mathers2 votes

The strength of a champion is very superficial in solo queue especially on western servers. General mechanics and decision making can enable a "one trick" of any champion to reach rank 1. When the top tiers on a server have such good fundamentals that champion strength is a real limiting factor, then the niceties of stats and kits will become meaningful. That said, ADC battle raka would be able to make rank 1 NA in the hands of a super computer or serious, disciplined player.

Rozzeta2 votes

Half the thing they do in LCS does not work in teams with lack of coordination, like standard Solo Q.

Also, things like Malz support are not a problem itself, but a symptom of a bigger issue.

Bijorn2 votes

I agree mostly. But the issue really comes into play when there is a nerf to the portion of a champs kit that is NOT the issue. I think that is the biggest issue that happens when it comes to balance. Riot is on top of whos too strong, albeit sometimes it takes them too long to do something about it.

Don't forget Riot trashing champs and not touching them, destroying the playerbase of a champ for X amount of time (just look at Yorick and Mord). Yes, people will bring up that they did get updates and whatnot, but there are still so many issues with them. If Riot actually followed up with these champs, then I think we would get much fewer salty threads.

I for one wish Riot would actually do something for the literal hundreds of bugs that Mord has but they just continue side stepping him like he doesn't exist. It's extremely upsetting as a player to have the devs not caring about parts of their game that is evolving like it is.

I guess I have to wait another 3+ years for Riot to even touch those two champs and maybe place them in a better spot.

Calintz65652 votes

That's idiotic. Gutting a champion doesn't ensure they will be fixed. It's a terrible solution.

dEAdbUs2 votes

If they balance around lcs then why we 55% champions picked vs 80% champions picked in dota2? They balance their game around pro scene too.

Divewing2 votes

I mean, it's a continuous cycle of: Pro players abuse unbalanced shit -> Rito nerfs said shit -> Pro players abuse unbalanced shit.

And this all inherently comes down to Counterplay and Reliability.

Pro Players would rather take something that gets a kill 100% of the time than the thing that sometimes gets 2 kills but only 50% of the time. Only in a utopian world where everything has equal measures of counterplay (regardless of how much), would this be balanced, or in a system like Overwatch where you are free to change characters in-game, so counter-picking BECOMES a/the form of counterplay.

The former would at best be achieved in the future once every unbalanced/low counterplay/toxic/nicheless are all successfully reworked and balanced, and the latter is not viable in a game such as league (at least without changing much of what makes League, League).

THAT BEING SAID

Riot having favourites (LeeSin) is completely biased. Lee at his core is balanced, but with all the extra crap loaded on (ward hopping, lifesteal/spellvamp, no bad way to use his ult, tiny cooldown on his ult, huge ratio/scaling on his ult, root on his ult so the target cannot change the trajectory, 350 ms, 3 second duration on Q mark, Q cooldown starting on 1st cast rather than second), he becomes this champion that simply feels like total bullshit. There is PLENTY to nerf about Lee Sin that Riot won't because they are scared he wont be played in pro play.

So to an extent I agree with the general pleb-cries of: "fuk u 4 balancing around LC$", because it is not consistent as long as they are playing favourites, but at the same time I know it's unreasonable to expect that anything but pro play dictates balance, at least as long as it exists.

JedenVojak2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tMAMpWfE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-06T12:43:03.092+0000)

Like with Poppy or Nidalee. The LCS is nothing but a precursor to the SoloQ to follow. People bitch when Graves ends up OP for a patch or two but don&#039;t realize that Riot nerfing around the LCS is to prevent just that. Nerfing Support Malz before it becomes too much oppressive cancer, nerfing Vlad before he dominated SoloQ for free last year.

Yes the Malz nerfs were warranted.

Oh?

The rework was a failure and like Azir, Aatrox or Kalista he has to be guttered until fixed.

This is patently false. I don't believe for a second that the only option is to make the champion unplayable.

There is a thing they can do right now to ameliorate the situation - revert the rework. The fact that they have not done this but have instead made (yet another) champion unplayable shows how much they really care about player fun; that is not at all. So long as they make the big bucks on the LCS, they will be more than happy to sacrifice any fun to be had for the sake of the "almighty competitive game balance"

Does it make me sad? Yes. Is it unreasonable? No.

If there is a better option that essentially deleting the champion from play until they put work in him for the future, I would consider this choice to be unreasonable. It would even have been better if they simply banned Malzahar from the LCS than this; at least then people could play him in normal games.

But no sorry. Riot should always balance around the best players playing the champions in the ideal way with good team cordination, with adjustments for Bronze-Plat only if champions get way out of hand(See Yi last time he was viable). Because no other form of balancing makes sense.

Wrong again. Another equally valid way of balancing is the MvC2 method - make them all broken, if something is too crazy ban it. There is no reason to make things unplayable for everyone if the problem is ultra-high-level competitive game balancing.

Fairlyn2 votes

Well, the problem is that they keep changing something that works pretty well instead of champions who really needs. Look Azir / Kalista / Nidalee. They are allmost unplayable because they are nerfed into oblivion due to overloaded kit. They need a rework. But what rito does? "We are trying to rework Sol or Aatrox because... Well they have balance problèmes" Excuse me? Aatrox wasnt THAT bas, and Sol have enought counterplay. Or another example.: Lee He isnt op, he is annoying af. But oh wait, He has overtuned kit, but nobody cartes. Lee is rito's golden boy

Inari Fox Orrion2 votes

The problem is that 80% of the player-base is either Bronze or Silver, and 15% is Gold. You'd have to be fairly elitist to say you need to balance around less than 5% of players while ignoring the rest.

I'm pretty sure everyone here gets and kind of agrees with what you're saying, but compared to a majority of the player-base you really shouldn't get special treatment from anyone, since, well, it's not only you who plays the game.

If a majority of people were in the higher ranks, I could definitely agree 100% with you, but... well, they're not, so I can only up-vote you and tell you that "Yeah no it's better they balance around all three and not one exclusively."

If your goal is to make it a point that Riot has an amazing balance team, they do. People need to credit them more. I've played countless MMOs and other MOBAs that have extremely slanted balance that makes it pretty clear which classes they want you to play. Compared to that, this is paradise because I can load up Urgot and still go 13/5/7.

Of course, the balance team still makes mistakes, but that's us all.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

've played countless MMOs and other MOBAs that have extremely slanted balance that makes it pretty clear which classes they want you to play.

ADC's.

I do agree with the rest of your statement though. They seem to change meta's slowly and over time that is fine. Unlike games like HoTS I swear they just nerf warcraft heroes and buff everything else. Or in MMO's they do a mass swing nerf/buff at the same time (they do it in this game but it is usually double nerfing something or nerf the same thing 4 or 5 times in a row).

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