Honestly? Can we rework the Infernal drake?

Malicious Metal·Feb 27, 2017·101 votes·5,713 views

It doesn't provide anything interesting or changes the game in a meaningful way for whoever gets it.

It's just free stats. Ocean allows you to withstand poking and win the trading battle Wind helps to rotate and be more active on the map Earth, albeit pretty boring, helps take objectives and push faster

and then there's Infernal

Who not only makes damage creep worse but doesn't do anything interesting except make whoever gets it snowball way harder.

So why can't we rework it into doing something more proactive rather than give free stats? I feel it should provide an aggressive, offensive buff of sorts that promotes aggressive play making and promotes combat rather than just steamrolling.

Just my two cents on the matter http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/41/Dragon_OriginalSkin.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151202202627

71 Comments

Big LincolnFeb 27, 201743 votes

Here's an idea

Make Infernal drake reward extended fights as a foil to Ocean encouraging short trades

Have it work like Battle Trance, where you get a % increase over a couple seconds of combat, but limit it so that you can't eat a little bit of poke and then flash-charge in with the fully stacked; you need to be AGGRESSIVE with it to make it work for you.

PB4UAMEFeb 28, 20171 votes

Also, make it a damage increase like you said rather than an AD/AP increase, which favors carries massively and barely does anything for wardens, juggernauts, divers, enchanters, vanguards, etc.

This, honestly, is the first change I would like to see. None of the other dragons so disproportionately benefit some characters over others.

Critmaster GarenMar 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Also, make it a damage increase like you said rather than an AD/AP increase, which favors carries massively and barely does anything for wardens, juggernauts, divers, enchanters, vanguards, etc.

This, honestly, is the first change I would like to see. None of the other dragons so disproportionately benefit some characters over others.

infernal drake increases your total ad.

considering that juggernauts have very high base ad and total ad scalings, the buff actually does a lot for them. though yes, its defnitely not the same for a darius as for a jhin.

PB4UAMEMar 1, 20171 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/50btpg/the_true_value_of_infernal_drake_a_nuanced_damage/

Darius, for example, gets a 2.5% damage increase per infernal drake.

In comparison most ADCs get a 6.5-8% increase, and Jhin gets 12%.

Tad old but is mostly true.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 28, 20179 votes

I like this idea. It does overlap with battle trance a little too much for my liking, but you're definitely on the right track with that idea.

PaquayFeb 28, 20171 votes

Wait, it doesn't make much sense that Ocean encourages shorter trades. Yes it would for the team that doesn't have the ocean buff. On the flip side, if you are on the team with the ocean drake/s then it would make sense you would want to disengage repeatedly so that you can recover hp without having to back.

This would make lengthy fights with repeated engages/disengages appealing for one side, but not the other. I guess it would force one team to press harder for a shorter engage, but I think a lot of it relies more on team comp than anything else.

Big LincolnFeb 28, 20172 votes

yeah I worded it poorly. i'm trying to study calculus and procrastinate at the same time

what I mean is ocean encourages you to do a lot of pokey play-like-a-bitch stuff, where you use your ability to outlast them to win really long wars of attrition, either in a brute-force siege or by rotating them and using the downtime running between lanes to regen your mana back up while they're forced to back unless they have a strong pusher champ with blue buff.

Infernal would be encouraging you to play as aggressively as possible by only coming into effect if you yourself go into a fight and stay in, so now the enemy has to do what they would do if they had Ocean; kite you out and disengage as often as possible to keep Infernal buff from reaching max efficiency

does that make more sense?

GULAG 4 UFeb 28, 20173 votes

Big Lincoln for game dev 2k17

Big LincolnFeb 28, 20176 votes

I have good ideas but people only look at my shitposts :^(

Papa AndreiFeb 28, 20178 votes

And the "remove mages from the game" mentality

Big LincolnFeb 28, 20177 votes

fuck mages

https://i.imgur.com/qUQgtZT.png

Papa AndreiFeb 28, 20176 votes

Can't even be mad now, Havel is best.

TiltoverEnforcerFeb 28, 20171 votes

How about like you deal an extra 0.5/1/1.5% damage per second you're in combat, up to a maximum of 5/10/15% per infernal dragon. But stacks fall off at the rate of 1/2/3% per half second after 2 seconds of not dealing damage. It's not really that good for assassins, who won't be able to get the full 5/10/15% for staying in combat for 10 seconds, but it's especially good if an ADC can manage to consistently deal damage throughout a fight without getting blown up.

EschetonFeb 27, 20177 votes

Fire drake should just ramp up over time like the Battle Trance Mastery. You get extra dmg, but not for burst. Tada, done, fixed.

GrayBloodFeb 27, 20172 votes

so useless for half the team?

EschetonFeb 27, 20172 votes

{quoted}

so useless for half the team?

Thats the current situation. Only good for those building heavy ad/ap. Which is also why we have our current support situation. I mean make it a flat increase of all dmg, that ramps up over time. Like...catching fire. That way there is counterplay, just disengage a bit. Not this.

xelakerFeb 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Fire drake should just ramp up over time like the Battle Trance Mastery. You get extra dmg, but not for burst. Tada, done, fixed.

ive thought this as well. one percent per second in combat starts at 2% cap then 4% then 6% or something like that

XonraFeb 28, 20176 votes

It's fine, I'm sure by the next presason they will get bored with Dragon and replace it with a giant T-Rex or something, and go on about how they didn't like free stats, or how everyone "figured it out" or some nonsense.

Also the T-Rex will also give free stat buffs after 3 weeks of it being on live and them not liking the state of it, and it will also roam around river for some reason chasing the Rift Herald. Which will introduce a new "strategic" mini game where you are assigned a side in the middle of the game so you are either helping to save the T-Rex or Rift Herald as they godzilla battle.

TyrekGoldenspearMar 1, 20171 votes

I like the giant T-Rex idea.

5000000000000000Feb 27, 20174 votes

Do you have any ideas as to what to replace it with? I have no idea how we can reward aggressive plays without giving them more damage. If we're changing infernal drakes, it might be better to just replace the kind of buff (rewarding aggressive plays) and steer towards different mechanics.

Malicious MetalFeb 27, 20179 votes

Currently Infernal drake works best on just champions who stack either AP or AD, making bruisers and tanks not really feel the benefit of it. Perhaps a small self-buff that triggers in combat would be something worth exploring.

5000000000000000Feb 27, 20177 votes

Oh, so just to be clear, are you fine with Infernal drakes giving more damage? It seems to me like what you're suggesting now is spreading out the damage more evenly instead of giving it all to carries that build heavy AD/AP. I was under the impression that you wanted Infernal drakes to give some other buffs than damage to mitigate damage creep and make its snowballing effect less.

Malicious MetalFeb 27, 20177 votes

In combat buffs don't always have to be about damage. But yeah, the current one's too good in certain scenarios.

It should still be the offensive dragon but it'll be somewhat tricky to do that without making it a complete stat stick.

ProzzakFeb 28, 20171 votes

As I posted to the guy above. Why not a buff like rift herald that promotes skirmishes. All alone? Get 10% increased damage. Promotes a team to want to attempt a 1-3-1 or something which tends to be risky in solo queue. This increases chances for the team behind to capitalise off of mistakes.

You could also alter it to make it all alone 15% increased damage (if 10% is too weak). Could then put 10% if only 2 people are within xxx range or 5% if 3 people. 0% after. Numbers don't really matter with what I am suggesting, just the idea that you somehow make the dragon promote skirmishes instead of 5v5 fights. Skirmishes will cause more chances for a team to claw their way back.

AnidanFeb 28, 20171 votes

Couldn't that be turned on its head by the leading team getting it and making it even easier for, say, their assassin to get picks? That would make it even harder for the losing team to come back, and while it would encourage smaller groupings you know as well as I do that dragons should encourage team play, and that can easily be perceived as punishing team play rather than rewarding skirmishes because it was a team effort to get the dragon, but now if the team stays together it's like they gained absolutely nothing in terms of buffs.

rtbf76109271Feb 28, 20174 votes

As much as I don't really like infernal, the whole "free stats" argument makes literally no sense. It's just a different stat than movement speed, regen or damage to objectives. They are all still stat heaps... just different stats

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 28, 20176 votes

The difference is that all of the other stats are situational. Regen is out of Combat. Movement Speed is out of combat. Bonus True damage only effects structures and epics.

Infernal drake buff is a constant free stat that effects everything unconditionally. On top of it all, it also makes towers even weaker, as you deal additional damage you normally wouldn't. It clouds out the Earth Drakes individuality. Why hope for Earth Drake when you can just get Infernal and do the same amount of damage?

TheHappyReaperzFeb 28, 20175 votes

"It clouds out the Earth Drakes individuality"

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/trollpasta/images/a/a9/I-see-what-you-did-there.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/480?cb=20121105211921

MrHaZeYoFeb 28, 20173 votes

Thing is, Infernal only helps those who scale on massive amounts of AP/AD.

Tanks, Attack Speed Champs, Supports, don't scale on it as well. Compared to all 3 of the other drakes + Elder which helps ever Champion on the receiving end.

Lets say your team is Mao'kai, Amumu, Azir, Jihn, and Thresh. Only Azir and Jihn really truly benefit from Infernal, but all 5 benefit to the other dragons.

Some team comps scale better with the Infernal then the others, every team comp scales well with the other drags.

ModAcademy KaynFeb 28, 20173 votes

I'm pretty sure the original point for Infernal just being stats, was that it's pretty desirable for any comp, unlike other drags, which vary depending on Champ composition. More damage is more damage, regardless of how much you stack.

Vegas DadFeb 28, 20173 votes

Do you people even understand this game?? Lets sum up your arguments, can we please delete all items and levels since they are all boring and do not provide any interesting or meaningful things to the game, they are just stats....

NEWS FLASH LEAGUE IS SIMPLY A STATS SIMULATOR lol everything in this game is stats not sure why some of you keep whining and tossing out stupid terms like "just a ball of stats" cause like that is everything and all this game is....the entire game revolved around simply amassing stats faster than your enemy to reach a point you cannot be overcome and simply win out the tug of war by killing the enemy base.

Best princess EUFeb 28, 20174 votes

that's not the point of the discussion

the point of the discussion is that infernal dragon gives stats that are worth in every single case which leads to oppressive snowballing

i wouldn't mind removing some AD and AP that aren't needed and just make league snowbally and braindead where people oneshot everything

2BeholdFeb 28, 20171 votes

Im pretty sure the point OP is trying to make is of all the elemental dragons this one just gives flat stats. The others have a strategic niche (move around the map faster, take objectives, poke more or sustain through poke) but infernal is just a stat boost. And OP sounds like he would like it shifted from a simple stat boost to a buff which rewards aggressive play. Its not an argument about stat boosts its an argument about the buff feeling boring but strong.

PraetorAmalthusFeb 28, 20173 votes

Why dont we give infernal the Bonus of earth and give earth like...idk...a DEFENSIVE effect? Like, when they teasered I was like oh earth, probably something defe- nop, just dmg. wow. In all kinds of Videogames I´ve played, the element of earth is associated with defense. So instead of dmging Towers, how about strengthening yours?

midnight oil24Feb 28, 20171 votes

I can't remember where they said it, but Riot did say that they tested a defensive dragon, but found that if it was combined with a damage-oriented team, it made them too hard to take down.

Malevolent MetalFeb 28, 20172 votes

But the others do the exact same thing. They are all veriations on passive effects , hell even the Elder drake(of course it being on a timer but still). Water gives you regen - just a passive thing Wind gives you MS - just a passive thing Earth gives you Dmg against towers - just a passive thing

SkorchFeb 28, 20172 votes

It doesnt make DAMAGE CREEP worse, it just increases damage. Yes it affects damage creep but can we stop saying everytime riot adds damage it is breaking the game cuz muh damage creep.

SnowplosionFeb 28, 20172 votes

Aren't all drakes technically stat buffing? Not saying Infernal is fine (it's not), but arguing that its that its the "free stat" drake seems a bit pointless.

Horse GrenadesFeb 28, 20172 votes

Have it give gold! :)

Dominick DestineFeb 28, 20172 votes

How about we go back to NON RANDOM dragon spawns?

This RNG dragon bullshit needs to go.

Celestial Lion12Mar 1, 20172 votes

Or just bring back the old dragon system

Critmaster GarenMar 1, 20172 votes

we managed to get infernal drake 3 in a game today.

sadly, i didnt manage to finish my i.e. before the enemy team surrendered.

yea. it needs to be changed.

BlackFluxMar 1, 20172 votes

get 3 and you basically got a halved item 3089 but it give it to both stats

CarameI FrappeFeb 28, 20171 votes

Replace Inferno with "Steel Dragon" where towers get extra defense / HP. Would be way more useful and balanced.

Critmaster GarenMar 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Caramel Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tJfpKEA0,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-02-28T01:16:28.004+0000)

Replace Inferno with "Steel Dragon" where towers get extra defense / HP. Would be way more useful and balanced.

maybe not as a replacement, but hell yes that would be a cool addition to the game.

ÐelofashtFeb 28, 20171 votes

An Infernal buff that is effective on all champions evenly would probably be something like a small AoE effect that scales with the team's average level, with a 3 second in combat requirement. Long enough for most Assassins to feel it's effect, enough for Tanks to get benefit, and short enough to feel impactful without being so short as to be instant free damage.

ÐelofashtFeb 28, 20171 votes

In retrospect, if they want to keep damage amp on Infernal, make it an AoE ground effect, enemies on it take 3% more damage and happens at the location of your champ after being in combat with another champion for 3 seconds. Then it's not affecting laning much, while giving some damage and can be played around by not standing in the AoE fields (because every champ on your team is gonna have this.

Warlord ZudaneFeb 28, 20171 votes

Idea: Instead of a flat AD/AP buff, let's make Infernal drake buff similar to thunderlord's. Make each hit with AA or ability add 1 stack, and at 3 stacks, the next hit clears them and burn damage is dealt based on damage dealt.

Critmaster GarenMar 1, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Zudane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tJfpKEA0,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2017-02-28T17:07:07.218+0000)

Idea: Instead of a flat AD/AP buff, let's make Infernal drake buff similar to thunderlord's. Make each hit with AA or ability add 1 stack, and at 3 stacks, the next hit clears them and burn damage is dealt based on damage dealt.

this favours auto attacking champions who can repeatedly reapply the stacks over casters. no thank you.

how about making it like rift heral where it just has an inbuilt timer and triggers a burn on the next time you deal damage to an enemy chamion?

MavroManitariMay 21, 20181 votes

I see the Problem with infernals being that they are disproportionally strong ocmpared to other drakes. All other drakes are a nice bonus but nowhere near as strong as for example the Baron or maybe getting 10 kills. With infernal thats not the case, it gets valued much more than even baron in my elo (low Plat) and an Infernal being taken by the enemy has an extremely negativ impact on the teams behaviour. The Problem isnt its strength itself, but rather one being reliant to not fall behind in infernal drakes to have a realistic winchance without havening the chance to come back unless u have luckand another one spawns. It happens way to often that one team has a strong early comb and takes a lucky first spwaned infernal and no other spawns making it nearly impossible for the other team to win. I have the following suggestions regarding these issues:

Rework drages to give them a fixed order for both teams e.g. first drake infernal second mountain etc, so that both teams have a chance to get the strong drakes and this isnt decided by RNG.
The team gets to decide which drake they want to have based on their strategic interests (However this would lead to almost all taking the infernal)
Limmiting Infernals in their duration for about 3 mins or maybe even 4 to still allow to snowball with it but give the other team a comeback chance after that.
Instead of giving Free stats, that the other team has no chance no matter how good they play to get near to, Infernal could instead of giving 8% more ad and ap reduce the cost of offensive items to be able to get to powerspikes earlier, but still give the enemy team the chance to be at their strength if they get fullbuild, instead of making the game harder and harder the longer it takes.

Maybe these ideas are stupid, they are just the result of my experience with infernal drakes so far, let me know what you think about it.