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An Unbiased Discussion of Veigar: Give me your opinion

Yoella··3 votes·2,347 views

EDIT: Dayummm this is getting bigger than I thought it would! @_@

Hey there, active Veigar Veigar player here and I'm looking to figure out whether or not his kit is outdated / underpowered / overpowered. Now I'm going to try and be as unbiased as I can and list some pros and cons of Veigar.

Pros:

  • His E stun has 650 range with a stun of 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 seconds with a CD of 20/19/18/17/16. The stun has a radius of 375*.

  • His R is a literal nuke with 250/375/500 + 120% AP + 80% targets AP and 650 range with a CD of 130/110/90.

  • His Q permanently grants him 1 bonus AP per last hit on minion, +2 on cannon minions (and 1/2/3/4/5 on champion kill).

  • His W deals 120/170/220/270/320 +100% AP in a 112.5 radius area after 1.25 seconds of delay.

  • His Q deals 80/125/170/215/260 + 60% AP with a CD of 8/7/6/5/4 and range of 650.

  • His E can help him control a teamfight if used correctly.

Cons:

  • *His E only stuns on the edges, the inside is unnafected

  • Abysmally poor early game

  • The very definition of a squishy/glasscannon champion

  • Huge CDs for a mage on everything but his fully upgraded Q and even that is 4 seconds. (For comparison, Annie Annie's Q has a constant CD of 4 seconds from level 1, and has greater damage ratios + can proc a stun due to her passive AND returns mana cost on kill)

  • His base speed is only 340, and is outrun by most all champions even with boots, leaving him defenseless when his E is on CD (16 seconds at max level)

  • When his ultimate, R, is on CD his viability drops significantly

  • Unless fed, requires a full EWQR combo to fight and kill most enemies

  • Being a pure mage champion he relies entirely on AP and Mana, leaving no room in his build for any real defensive items if doing poorly and is stuck with item 3020 95% of the time.

  • Veigar is extremely team-dependant. He can make a good team great, but is almost useless on a sub-par team.

  • Runs out of mana a LOT, especially early game, even with just farming and not poking. His combo costs a ton.

  • His passive, increasing mana regen by 1% per 1% mana missing, doesn't help much compared to other champions passives. That and it takes forever to regenerate enough mana for your combo when you actually need it.

  • Extremely, and I mean EXTREMELY vulnerable to all champions with gap closers / stuns or slows / or speed boosters. If your stun doesn't hit them perfectly or is on its 16 second CD, you're dead. And let's face it, that's pretty much every champion out there.

  • Melts like butter on a hotplate.

  • Every time you go in to make a play you have to risk your own life.

  • Needs to farm CS, a lot, or he will be useless.

  • Other team has item 3111 Mercury Treads or other tenacity bonuses? PFFFT your stun doesn't mean s**t anymore. And say bye bye to your W ever hitting again too.

So there's my review of the pros and cons of playing Veigar. I tried my best to not be biased and to be as straightforward as possible. If I forgot to add something to one of these lists please post it below, thanks.

Personally, I find that Veigars strengths are really strong, but his weaknesses are numerous and that adds up to a significant amount. I feel like it would be better if Riot either buffed his passive or changed it all together. Maybe instead of some crappy mana regeneration buff that doesn't really help much Veigar gains movement speed to a ratio of his total AP farmed with his Q, not his overall AP total. That way his passive would actually be of use, and allow him to flee from some of those gap closer and speed boosting foes.

52 Comments

Legostrike7 votes

Veigar is not OP or Underpowered, and yet he is at the same time. He's a champion designed to counter mages, and he does that perfectly effectivly. only thing I wish was on him as a movement speed buff but he's fine where he is. In other words:

Vs, Mage, OP Vs, non-mage, underpowered

so right where he was designed to be.

Yoella1 votes

Indeed. I agree with you. I'd just like him to get a few tweaks to his passive is all.

Legostrike2 votes

mmm. yea I'd like to see it buffed, It seems weak.

Yoella1 votes

Yeah if you've ever played a Veigar you'll notice that it doesn't really help much unless you can just do nothing for 2 minutes and not use any mana while it fills back up. Oooorrrr you could just B back to base and heal up a dozen times quicker. It's really a silly and outdated passive. Not to mention the moment you buy a mana regen item, if you choose to, your passive becomes completely obsolete.

Legostrike2 votes

I'd actually like to see it either buffed to 2-3, maaaybe four % or changed to punish mages even more, like a an increase of damage equal to like, 1% of your opponent's Ap.

Rustling Bush3 votes

i feel like his w is hitting me before it lands, because i use to remember that his w wouldn't land with rank 1 e, but i just went up against a veigar that kept nuking me with his e+w in the early part of the match

Yoella1 votes

The cast delay with his W is 1.2 seconds and the stun duration of his level 1 E is 1.5 seconds, so if you're really quick it can hit you before the stun wears off or, more likely, in the split second it takes you to leave the W's range.

Rustling Bush1 votes

The cast delay with his W is 1.2 seconds and the stun duration of his level 1 E is 1.5 seconds, so if you're really quick it can hit you before the stun wears off or, more likely, in the split second it takes you to leave the W's range.

but the strange thing is that he q'd after the e around lv 4 or 5ish so that sounds near impossible to land a w to unless he was lmaxing his e first (i find that really strange if he was going e over q but hey i guess it worked)

Yoella1 votes

Nah he probably just launched an E and W immediately after eachother and then launched Q while the E was falling. It's possible to land a 1.2 second attack in a 1.5 second period, albeit difficult.

Naelarstrasz3 votes

In the extremely unlikely event Riot realizes Veigar is a champion of League of Legends, they should realize he's outdated severely. He is the perfect example of late game damage, but he's not going to make it with how bad his early game is. Just play Orianna and win the game as APC. Veigar literally has to be better than the opposing laner in all match ups in order to HAVE A CHANCE to win lane. And not just be a bit better, either... A LOT better. Veigar needs some major kit help so he can be viable.

Yoella1 votes

Oh God Orianna can be a NIGHTMARE for a Veigar.

Bharhash2 votes

I would say Veigar is pretty well balanced all around. He has very clearly defined strengths and weaknesses, has to make meaningful choices, and has unique aspects to his character that separate him from the other champions in the League. No other champion has an ult that gets stronger the more AP/AD the target has.

Yoella1 votes

Clearly defined strengths and weaknesses is not equal to being well balanced, it just means that they're obvious and clear-cut. Which means they're easy to counter. His choices are very meaningful, as they can easily get him killed. It just feels like his risk is heavier than other champions risk for the same reward. But yeah, his ulti is definitely what makes Veigar Veigar. Pretty weak against AD tanky champs though. (Unless fed, but everyone's good fed)

MorikTheMad1 votes

but everyone's good fed

Hey ArcanesWrath--have you met my friend Leona?

Spitemaster1 votes

I have no idea why you'd claim Leona isn't good fed. Sure, she doesn't do a lot of damage when she's fed, but that's because there are few cases where you'd want to build damage on her. But you can't tell me it's not good when she can dive through the entire enemy team, stun the carries a couple times, and then walk back out at half health. Under a turret. Get fed, get an early warmogs; she's unstoppable. Not to mention that if she has a lot of health, she can usually trade with anyone, which means that she can get kills 1v1.

MorikTheMad2 votes

So...

"Only" 340 MS? There are plenty of slower champs out there, and not many faster. He is pretty fast. (MS ranges from 325 to 355, but many more champs are on the lower end than the higher end)

His E would be INSANELY overpowered if you didn't have to have good skill to land an edge on someone you want stunned.

I play Veig a lot and basically never have mana problems. I run +3 MP5 from masteries and get a dorans at the start. That + passive is enough to sit in lane farming for a long time. Don't use your abilities other than Q.

Then get either a 2nd dorans or a chalice.

And I don't find his early game abysmal... I can safely farm vs almost any champion.

Yoella2 votes

"Only" 340 MS? There are plenty of slower champs out there, and not many faster. He is pretty fast. (MS ranges from 325 to 355, but many more champs are on the lower end than the higher end)

Actually if you look at a MS table, like the one on the LOL wiki.. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_speed/Table Veigar is pretty much smack dab in the middle of things. Plus most of the champs on the lower end of the table have abilities or builds that grant them bonus movement speed or are gap closers. Items like item 3086 Zeal and such so they are, in fact, faster than Veigar when it really counts.

His E would be INSANELY overpowered if you didn't have to have good skill to land an edge on someone you want stunned.

Yes I agree completely with you on this, and I never once said that it should stun the whole area. That would be... insanely OP.

I play Veig a lot and basically never have mana problems. I run +3 MP5 from masteries and get a dorans at the start. That + passive is enough to sit in lane farming for a long time. Don't use your abilities other than Q.

I do the exact same thing as you, actually. And it works well if your enemy just sits there and lets you farm and doesn't push. But they're inevitably going to do exactly that, and you're going to have to usually poke them back once they start hitting your tower with a Q or a W if Q is on CD. This is part of what I meant by Veigar being team dependant. If you've got a good jungler who can gank properly then you can continue to farm for quite a while without running out of mana. But without that, you're going to likely need to recall. Not to mention when your jungle does gank if you've got less than 60% of your mana you can't pull off your combo for the kill.

And I don't find his early game abysmal... I can safely farm vs almost any champion.

This. I'm going to have to either call BS on this or your junglers have been amazing. Even every guide you read on Veigar states that his early game is pathetic. I don't see how you can "safely farm" against almost anybody without letting your tower get completely decimated or destroyed in the process.

And you shouldn't have to get a chalice just to make up for your mana deficiency to farm your Q, while other champions are getting offensive items because they don't need a stopgap measure just to farm.

MorikTheMad1 votes

"Only" 340 MS? There are plenty of slower champs out there, and not many faster. He is pretty fast. (MS ranges from 325 to 355, but many more champs are on the lower end than the higher end)

Actually if you look at a MS table, like the one on the LOL wiki.. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_speed/Table Veigar is pretty much smack dab in the middle of things. Plus most of the champs on the lower end of the table have abilities or builds that grant them bonus movement speed or are gap closers. Items like item 3086 Zeal and such so they are, in fact, faster than Veigar when it really counts.

He isn't in the middle--there are more below 340 than above it.

And I don't find his early game abysmal... I can safely farm vs almost any champion.

This. I'm going to have to either call BS on this or your junglers have been amazing. Even every guide you read on Veigar states that his early game is pathetic. I don't see how you can "safely farm" against almost anybody without letting your tower get completely decimated or destroyed in the process.

I level E at lvl 2, then max R > Q > E > W. Having the stun ready if they come in on you is necessary, but you wanna avoid having to use it--so I stay back a ways most of the time moving forward just to Q.

Yes, this means I often get shoved into my tower.

But they have to be much more cautious once I hit 6.

And you shouldn't have to get a chalice just to make up for your mana deficiency to farm your Q, while other champions are getting offensive items because they don't need a stopgap measure just to farm.

Other champions may spend 860 on a blasting wand. You get a chalice for the same price, and the same 40 AP from farming your Q. Veigar has to give something up in order to get an extra ~20 gold of stats from every minion he kills with Q...

Yoella1 votes

He isn't in the middle--there are more below 340 than above it.

Yo I said pretty much in the middle, and you completely ignored the fact that many of the champs below him have other mechanics that increase their speed or ground they cover otherwise.

Other champions may spend 860 on a blasting wand. You get a chalice for the same price, and the same 40 AP from farming your Q. Veigar has to give something up in order to get an extra ~20 gold of stats from every minion he kills with Q...

The gold he gets from last hitting with his Q isn't anything unique to Veigar. Anyone can last hit with anything... So why should he have to give something up to do something any other champion can do?

Now if you meant he has to give up something for the AP he gets from last hitting with his Q, and not the gold, then you're also still wrong because that's already making up for Veigars absurdly huge CDs.

Because you see that "extra ~20 gold of stats" from last hitting minions that Veigar gets.. everyone else gets too. So it wouldn't make sense for other champions to be able to put that gold to actually good use when Veigar has to use it just to stay in lane.

Yes, this means I often get shoved into my tower.

But they have to be much more cautious once I hit 6.

That's not entirely true. Have you ever been level 6, or even 10 Veigar and unloaded on someone with <70% health? You're not going to finish them off by the time your Q is done with its CD, unless you get a gank from your jungler. Which is again what I mean by Veigar is team dependent. If they have <70% health or have a potion, they can go right in so long as they've warded. You'll stun them, Q them, W them, and nuke them and they'll probably have between 20 and 30% health remaining, which you no longer have any spells to deal with. Thus they take a potion or recall, and your ulti is now on CD for over 100 seconds.

MorikTheMad1 votes

He isn't in the middle--there are more below 340 than above it.

Yo I said pretty much in the middle, and you completely ignored the fact that many of the champs below him have other mechanics that increase their speed or ground they cover otherwise.

You said "Veigar is pretty much smack dab in the middle of things"--smack dab in the middle is stronger than just "kind of in the middle".

He is better than most of the other mages. Kassadin has 340, and he is practically melee. Morgana 335. Ziggs 325. Annie 335. Lux 330. Swain 335.

Other champions may spend 860 on a blasting wand. You get a chalice for the same price, and the same 40 AP from farming your Q. Veigar has to give something up in order to get an extra ~20 gold of stats from every minion he kills with Q...

The gold he gets from last hitting with his Q isn't anything unique to Veigar. Anyone can last hit with anything... So why should he have to give something up to do something any other champion can do?

Now if you meant he has to give up something for the AP he gets from last hitting with his Q, and not the gold, then you're also still wrong because that's already making up for Veigars absurdly huge CDs.

Because you see that "extra ~20 gold of stats" from last hitting minions that Veigar gets.. everyone else gets too. So it wouldn't make sense for other champions to be able to put that gold to actually good use when Veigar has to use it just to stay in lane.

I think you may have misunderstood me.

A champion last hits a minion and gets ~20 actual gold. Veiger kills a minion with Q and gets ~20 actual gold, and ~20 gold worth of stats (1 AP). Thus my statement of "~20 EXTRA gold worth of stats".

My impression was that you were claiming it is unfair that Veig needs to buy mana items when other champs get offense items. My rebuttal was that Veig gets to buy a mana item, and his Q gives him the same AP that the other champion had to buy.

As for his "absurdly huge CDs"... CDs from a few champions listed in Q/W/E/R - Q/W/E/R format (first is lowest level, last is max level).

Annie: 4/8/10/120 - 4/8/10/80

Kassadin: 9/9/6/7 - 9/9/6/3

Lux: 15/14/10/80 - 11/10/10/50

Morgana: 11/10/23/120 - 11/10/15/100

Veigar: 8/10/20/130 - 4/10/16/90

Xerath: 9/14/13/130 - 5/10/11/100

Ziggs: 6/26/16/120 - 4/18/16/120

His cooldowns don't look much different than the others... he is better than morg & lux starting out, looks roughly on par with Ziggs (Q a little higher, W much shorter, E a bit higher).

At max level he doesn't look so bad either... better CDs than ziggs all the way around. Roughly on-par with Xerath. Better than morg & lux.

Annie has pretty low CDs, but her E isn't that great...

I have heard the statistic that most pro-level team fights last 30 seconds. I think lower-level teamfights last 15-25 seconds, not positive though. Without CDR, veigar can throw out 4-6 Qs, 1-2 Ws, and an E. With 30% CDR, he can throw out 5-8 Qs, 2-3 Ws, and 1-2 Es.

Doesn't seem so horrible to me. Calling the CDs "absurdly huge" seems quite the exageration.

Yes, this means I often get shoved into my tower.

But they have to be much more cautious once I hit 6.

That's not entirely true. Have you ever been level 6, or even 10 Veigar and unloaded on someone with <70% health? You're not going to finish them off by the time your Q is done with its CD, unless you get a gank from your jungler. Which is again what I mean by Veigar is team dependent. If they have <70% health or have a potion, they can go right in so long as they've warded. You'll stun them, Q them, W them, and nuke them and they'll probably have between 20 and 30% health remaining, which you no longer have any spells to deal with. Thus they take a potion or recall, and your ulti is now on CD for over 100 seconds.

Once I am lvl 5 or so I start harassing heavily with Q against most opponents. They must back off relatively quickly. Also, blue buff.

Yoella1 votes

You said "Veigar is pretty much smack dab in the middle of things"--smack dab in the middle is stronger than just "kind of in the middle".

Alright we can debate the use of how strong certain words are another time.

Now let's talk about the CD thing: I'll put Veigars in the same format as what you put.

As for his "absurdly huge CDs"... CDs from a few champions listed in Q/W/E/R - Q/W/E/R format (first is lowest level, last is max level).

Veigar: 8/10/20/130 - 4/10/16/90

Annie: 4/8/10/120 - 4/8/10/80

All of Annie's CDs are lower that Veigars at both first and last level. In fact, her Q is a steady 4 seconds from level one. Let's look at that shall we? Her Q range is 625 compared to Veigar having a range of 650, yes, but look at the stats. Annie and Veigar deal 80/115/150/185/220 +80% AP in damage on a 4 second cooldown and 80/125/170/215/260 +60% AP on a Cooldown that goes 8/7/6/5/4 seconds. So while Veigar deals slightly more base damage with his Q, Annie has a much greater AP ratio, giving her better damage. Not to mention her passive lets ALL of her spells stun. This means she can have a 1.75 second stun any time she casts 4 spells. Even if she only used her Q 4 times she'd be able to stun as often as Veigar, and with more precision.

Kassadin: 9/9/6/7 - 9/9/6/3

Pretty much the same case with kass here, except his Q at max level is actually 9 seconds compared to Veigars 4. "Oh that means Veigar must be OP, haha got you there!" No it does not. The quality of the skills matters too. Not only is his ultimate an offensive, damage-causing flash that's on a THREE SECOND COOLDOWN, he can use it over and over again. He also has a shield, better ratios in all but his W, and a bulk mana restoration utility. It's not even worth comparing this. Anybody can see that it's no contest. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Kassadin_The_Void_Walker

Lux: 15/14/10/80 - 11/10/10/50

She has a longer Q and W Cooldown (only Q lategame) but look at that range! Q has 1175, W 1075, E 1100, and her R has a whopping 3340 range. H-O-L-Y-S-H-I-T. Just.. just look at this stuff yourself. If you can't see why this is again no contest, you have no idea who Veigar is. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Lux

All that range, a shield, and a passive that deals 20% her AP as bonus damage when she hits an enemy shes recently attacked.

Morgana: 11/10/23/120 - 11/10/15/100

Do I seriously need to defend this? There's a reason she's always banned. Not wasting my time on this one http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Morgana_Le

Xerath: 9/14/13/130 - 5/10/11/100

His range is similar to Lux's, in that theyre all over 1000 and his ulti even goes to 5600 at max level. You're losing credibility here, friend. I have other things to do I'm not pointing out more of the obvious http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Xerath

Dat range and passive.

Ziggs: 6/26/16/120 - 4/18/16/120

Again, look at that range, all over 1000, and look at his passive. All that bonus damage. Veigar's ulti doesn't mean shit if he can't get in range. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ziggs%2C_the_Hexplosives_Expert

Doesn't seem so horrible to me. Calling the CDs "absurdly huge" seems quite the exageration.

Again, I just showed you that they're all longer for Veigar, with just a few exceptions. On TOP of all that I also showed you that the quality of the skill matters. Range, AP ratios, bonus effects, etc all make up a skill not just CDs. So yes Veigars skills are pretty good, but compared to other champions he needs some tweaking. Notably some extra range. At least look at a wiki page or something before you make a claim like this again. Cuz I'm done.

MorikTheMad1 votes

This is getting too long to respond to in one post--breaking up responses due to character limits.

You said "Veigar is pretty much smack dab in the middle of things"--smack dab in the middle is stronger than just "kind of in the middle".

Alright we can debate the use of how strong certain words are another time.

Now let's talk about the CD thing: I'll put Veigars in the same format as what you put.

As for his "absurdly huge CDs"... CDs from a few champions listed in Q/W/E/R - Q/W/E/R format (first is lowest level, last is max level).

Veigar: 8/10/20/130 - 4/10/16/90

Annie: 4/8/10/120 - 4/8/10/80

All of Annie's CDs are lower that Veigars at both first and last level. In fact, her Q is a steady 4 seconds from level one. Let's look at that shall we? Her Q range is 625 compared to Veigar having a range of 650, yes, but look at the stats. Annie and Veigar deal 80/115/150/185/220 +80% AP in damage on a 4 second cooldown and 80/125/170/215/260 +60% AP on a Cooldown that goes 8/7/6/5/4 seconds. So while Veigar deals slightly more base damage with his Q, Annie has a much greater AP ratio, giving her better damage. Not to mention her passive lets ALL of her spells stun. This means she can have a 1.75 second stun any time she casts 4 spells. Even if she only used her Q 4 times she'd be able to stun as often as Veigar, and with more precision.

Your statement is false: "All of Annie's CDs are lower that Veigars at both first and last level". At first level her E is equal to his W. At last level her Q & E are equal to his Q & W.

In my experience on late-game annie, my AP is generally around 500-700, depending on build. With Veigar, it is often 800-1000. .6 * 800 = 480 .8 * 500 = 400 .6 * 1000 = 600 .8 * 700 = 560 So, it looks to me like veigar has both better base damage and will end up with more actual damage as well.

But regardless, we are starting to get deeper into balance discussion. I think this indicates that his CDs aren't "absurdly huge"--he is COMPARABLE with others. If his CDs were 3x Annie's, that would be a different story. (BTW, Annie isn't the best mage to compare with--she is on the very LOW end of CDs.)

Deciding whether Annie's higher ratio is offset by Veigar's ability to farm AP isn't the point of this post. The point is, I don't think you have proven your claim his CDs are "absurdly huge".

Yoella1 votes

This will probably be my last reply here and then we'll have to agree to disagree, because I'm just tired.

Alright, Annies Q at LOWEST level is the same cooldown as Veigars Q at MAX level (with better AP ratios cough cough)

Oh and alright Annie can shield herself and cause damage to enemies on the same cooldown that Veigar can launch a very small AOE attack with a 1.2 second delay. Those are totally equal abilities.

His cooldowns are higher than they should be for a champion of his niche is all I was trying to say. And early game they really are absurdly long, albeit later game it gets a bit better. I also noticed you completely left out the part about Annie stunning every 4 abilites, but w/e. There's also the other 5 champions listed in my prior post I talked about, I think I've made my point pretty clear. My point being that Veigar doesn't need a huge buff, but needs to have his passive or his ranges or cooldowns tweaked. Any of the three would work fine, really.

I appreciate your input, but this is getting tedious and I have other things I have to do for a while, we have to agree to disagree and that's perfectly fine.

MorikTheMad1 votes

There's also the other 5 champions listed in my prior post I talked about

See my comment at the top of the post (that I broke my reply up due to character limits).

His cooldowns are higher than they should be for a champion of his niche is all I was trying to say.

What would you propose as CDs for him?

Why do you feel his CDs need to be lower? Can you lay out a scenario or two where the higher CD doesn't work, but SHOULD work?

Example scenario where I think his CDs work (~35% CDR): "A 5v5 teamfight breaks out. Veigar uses DFG + E, Q, R to splat a squishie, and W's a group of 2 other champions who got caught in his E (or who were CCed by others on the team). A few seconds later he comes back towards the fight and drops another Q on an assassin diving the ADC. A few seconds later his W is off CD and he drops it in the retreat path of the last 2 living enemies."

I also noticed you completely left out the part about Annie stunning every 4 abilites, but w/e.

His stun is better in some ways, hers is better in some ways.

  • He can cast spells all he likes, and keep the stun in reserve.
  • Annie loses hers if she casts whenever she likes.
  • His can be dropped at longer range (due to where the edges fall)
  • Annie can AoE stun a group, but that is with her ult (which is on a relatively high CD compared to his stun).
  • Annie can AoE stun with her W, but needs to be pretty close ranged to do so.
  • Veig's stun, even when it misses, sticks around for a bit; it can disrupt chases, isolate enemies, etc.

I'm not going to try to claim which is better. (If I had to guess, I'd say Annie's edges out slightly, but not by too much.)

MorikTheMad1 votes

Kassadin: 9/9/6/7 - 9/9/6/3

Pretty much the same case with kass here, except his Q at max level is actually 9 seconds compared to Veigars 4. "Oh that means Veigar must be OP, haha got you there!" No it does not. The quality of the skills matters too. Not only is his ultimate an offensive, damage-causing flash that's on a THREE SECOND COOLDOWN, he can use it over and over again. He also has a shield, better ratios in all but his W, and a bulk mana restoration utility. It's not even worth comparing this. Anybody can see that it's no contest. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Kassadin_The_Void_Walker

I thought we were talking about CDs? Yeah, Kass is a special case in his Ult. Kass is a very different champion. I'm not trying to say that "OH VEIG IS OP CAUSE LESS CD!", I'm trying to refute your claim that Veig's CDs are "absurdly huge".

Also, please leave out the meaningless things like "Anybody can see..." That statement is not backed by logic or data, and adds nothing to the discussion.

Lux: 15/14/10/80 - 11/10/10/50

She has a longer Q and W Cooldown (only Q lategame) but look at that range! Q has 1175, W 1075, E 1100, and her R has a whopping 3340 range. H-O-L-Y-S-H-I-T. Just.. just look at this stuff yourself. If you can't see why this is again no contest, you have no idea who Veigar is. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Lux

All that range, a shield, and a passive that deals 20% her AP as bonus damage when she hits an enemy shes recently attacked.

And we move on to Ad Hominem pokes :). "If you can't see this, you have no idea who Veigar is" is not backed up by logic or data, and adds nothing to the discussion.

Yes, these various champions ARE DIFFERENT FROM VEIGAR. I'm not claiming that Veigar is completely equivalent to any other champion. I don't make that claim for any champion.

I'm claiming one thing in this dicussion: His kit's CDs are comparable to the CDs of other champions in the same role.

Yeah, Lux trades off longer CDs for longer range. How does that support your claim that Veigar's CDs are absurd?

Morgana: 11/10/23/120 - 11/10/15/100

Do I seriously need to defend this? There's a reason she's always banned. Not wasting my time on this one http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Morgana_Le

I'm not sure what your statement purports to prove. She is a mage (or support) champion who's CDs are (in general) longer than Veigars. Another counterpoint to your claim that Veig's CDs are "absurdly high".

Xerath: 9/14/13/130 - 5/10/11/100

His range is similar to Lux's, in that theyre all over 1000 and his ulti even goes to 5600 at max level. You're losing credibility here, friend. I have other things to do I'm not pointing out more of the obvious http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Xerath

Dat range and passive.

If you feel I have no credibility, then stop responding to me; its fine. I am showing you data that indicates that there are many mages with similar or longer CDs than Veigars. If your claim is that their kits are SO MUCH INCREDIBLY better than Veigars that it makes his (lower or equivalent) CDs "absurdly huge", then fine; I'll address that claim in a separate post (if you confirm that is what you are claiming).

Prior to this post of yours, you hadn't indicated WHY you thought his CDs are "absurdly huge"; so I posted a variety of champions in the mage role whose CD numbers are comparable to Veigars.

MorikTheMad1 votes

Ziggs: 6/26/16/120 - 4/18/16/120

Again, look at that range, all over 1000, and look at his passive. All that bonus damage. Veigar's ulti doesn't mean shit if he can't get in range. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ziggs%2C_the_Hexplosives_Expert

Same stuff as said for other champions, won't rehash here.

Doesn't seem so horrible to me. Calling the CDs "absurdly huge" seems quite the exageration.

Again, I just showed you that they're all longer for Veigar, with just a few exceptions. On TOP of all that I also showed you that the quality of the skill matters. Range, AP ratios, bonus effects, etc all make up a skill not just CDs. So yes Veigars skills are pretty good, but compared to other champions he needs some tweaking. Notably some extra range. At least look at a wiki page or something before you make a claim like this again. Cuz I'm done.

"just a few exceptions": I disagree. He has a 4 second, 10 second, 16 second, and 90 second. This is not "all longer for Veigar with a few exceptions". This is equivalent or shorter, with a few exceptions.

As for quality of skills, that is of course debateable--but "needs some tweaking" is a far cry from "his CDs are absurdly huge".

As for that 2nd to last sentence; I do actually look at wiki pages, and I am familiar with all of these champions. :) Stop with the ad hominem attacks--you aren't supporting your points with them. You want a discussion? Discuss the data.

12tales2 votes

Abysmally poor early game

From discussions I've had with Veigar mains, this is usually an issue with playstyle rather than the champion himself. If you use his Q for harass rather than farm, he's actually a pretty dominant laner. Or at least, that's what I've been told.

Overall, I think that Veigar is a relatively balanced champion, but his kit is incredibly obnoxious to play against and boring to play with. Once all of the really problematic champions are taken care of, I wouldn't mind seeing him reworked. In the mean time, tho, he's not underpowered or causing any real problems.

Yoella1 votes

If you use his Q for harass rather than farm, he's actually a pretty dominant laner. Or at least, that's what I've been told.

You know, I've heard the same thing before. I've tried doing that, and I've talked to other people who have tried doing that, and it seems to be either hit or miss. Either you get lucky and are facing a more passive mid player or you end up getting totally screwed and dying. With its long CD it feels rather noneffective to poke with early on once they break out a potion or pokes of their own.

Overall, I think that Veigar is a relatively balanced champion, but his kit is incredibly obnoxious to play against and boring to play with. Once all of the really problematic champions are taken care of, I wouldn't mind seeing him reworked. In the mean time, tho, he's not underpowered or causing any real problems.

I agree, to an extent. Other champions need a major overhaul sooner rather than later, but I'd still like to see a few smaller adjustments to Veigar in the patches in the meantime. Not a total rework, just some adjustments.

MEMEME6701 votes

I would like to say that it's pretty easy to play aggressive on Veigar and fail because you are being much too aggressive.

I have beaten Talon (Which, before it was suggested I play aggro I would've never imagined I could do) by simply only trading with Q up and when he was weaker than me(last hitting, etc). This leads into the second point.

Veigar is one of a sub group of champions that add a LOT of finesse to a game that he's in and not worthless.

You have to try and blow people up without getting caught, and they have to try and avoid that and still reach you. This is especially prevalent outside of lane phase before people have BVs or QSS or Mercurials. (Mercs can be negated by levelling E).

However, unlike champions like Yasuo where most of the finesse requirement is on the opponent, with Veig it's mostly on you. If you mess up you're dead, and it's completely possible to stun someone and fail to kill them, or stun someone and get killed in response.

Because of this, I feel that although he is balanced, his high level of difficulty to play makes him underplayed. (Also, his gameplay is somewhat counterintuitive. Most people don't do the math and think farming wiht Q early game is more effective than harassing because it's permanent AP, when the opposite is true usually.)

Llanite2 votes

Kit is relatively old/ very standard, but working fine. There will no 'straight' buff, judging his current win ratio. All you could expect is a full rework but it could just end up as abyssal as Cass'.

I'd say be happy with what you have. Older champs have the advantage of simplicity, you just can't go wrong, but there is little you can do to outplay people either.

Marthian2 votes

I think he could definitely use some work, notably on his E and R.

E - If you get within a certain distance of Veigar, he drops it on you and you are stunned for free. And if you are in it, you are trapped if you don't have anything to use to get out. That's just as good as CC R - It's a huge nuke straight and simple. Lacks counterplay for the potential of obscene damage it does (I have seen APCs get destroyed by Veigars late game using only his Ultimate.)

Keeping distance from someone (unless behind minions) is not good counterplay.

Direwolfiez2 votes

It's so easy to dodge his W unless you're stunned it's not even funny, and it's not as easy as you think to land the stun. Even if you're stuck in in, juke his W and his damage output falls like crazy. Getting Tenacity makes it almost impossible to get a full combo off, since it shortens his stun. As for his R...it doesn't work very well against non-AP tanks or AD champs, and it's range is the same as his Q's, so...if your carry gets close to him and his ult is up, they're gonna die, and they're either greedy or stupid.

Marthian1 votes

It is super easy to land if they are really close to you. Not sure what makes you think that, I've had so many Veigars place their stun-cage on people with no issues at all.

There is still no justification for him being able to freely destroy anyone just by clicking his ultimate. That's the definition of lack of counterplay.

Yoella1 votes

E - If you get within a certain distance of Veigar, he drops it on you and you are stunned for free. And if you are in it, you are trapped if you don't have anything to use to get out. That's just as good as CC

That is very untrue. First of all the stun is far from free, it's his only survival tool and has a huge CD. After that stun, or if it misses, he's toast without help. And as far as being trapped inside it you're technically right. If you don't have a flash like spell you can't escape it, however it's far from "as good as CC" You can still cast spells within it, move around, attack from range, etc.

R - It's a huge nuke straight and simple. Lacks counterplay for the potential of obscene damage it does (I have seen APCs get destroyed by Veigars late game using only his Ultimate.)

I too have seen carries get destroyed by Veigars R, and destroyed many as well, but it's really his only way to fight people who deal damage so quickly like that. He melts like butter. His nuke is something he needs. Although I wouldn't mind Riot making his R a skillshot instead of just a click, if they increase it's projectile speed or lower it's CD in exchange. And there's a TON of counterplay for his ulti, FYI. Zhonya's, Fizz's leap, or anything else that takes you out of combat like Fiora's ult or Vladmir's blood pool thing will cause it to miss entirely. After you dodge it, Veigar is up the creek without a paddle, finish him off.

Ironclad Dragon2 votes

Either he feeds, or DESTROYS.

I wish there was a middle ground.

43161549_DEL2 votes

As an active VeigarVeigar player I would have to say his kit is good where it is. (other then his move speed needing some form of boosting per level) Generally i am able to get a team where I can farm as much as i want without even worrying about being dived due to constant co-operation with the jungler, be it timing a cut off with me using event horizon over a wall or stealing a blue. Even if you get destroyed early game you can generally get top or bottom to let you farm there if need be. So personally I feel his kit is fine where it is.

NoMonku2 votes

He's an old champion, so he has older design and is subpar compared to champions now. He sort of falls into the category with Sion(before rework) and Nasus as they all can indefinitely scale if the game drags on long enough. The reason I feel Veigar never got any love was because he's too weak compared to newer champions, but if he gets buffed to a viable position, he will be able to become a late game monster that can easily nuke someone to death with just one ability. He has a lot of "OP" aspects to his kit, which is why I think he hasn't been touched. His Q allows him to scale indefinitely and his E is basically ultimate level with how strong it is on such a low CD. Of course, he has his cons, but he at least has something going for him.

I kind of hope he will get a rework or something similar, as I feel he needs a little love to make him more... viable.

Orpheus Crown2 votes

Veig has strong points, but gets caught out easily and is fairly close range, if you use your E aggressively mid/late game, and miss, you become incredibly vulnerable. Veig isn't exactly high skill, but the player must have good positioning to play him after laning phase. So veig requires a moderate amount of skill. I love veigar, so after playing quite a bit of him, I figured what his strong and weak points are. So, VERY hard nukes but a lack of mobility or range keeps him from being top tier. However, you can climb elo with him, he's a strong pick, if you can avoid getting caught out of position.

Kowe The Ewok2 votes

Veigar's kit is fine (though personally I hate hyperscaling). HIs main problem is his horribly low base health. Basically every mid champion can kill Veigar at level 2 or 3 and from there on, even if Veigar plays careful. While he sure is supposed to be weak early on it should be his damage that is weak instead of his health. This creates the current all or nothing scenarios were he's either a stunbot or 1 HKO's everything.

To be fair, the introduction of many viable AD mids hasn't made it easier for him.

PimperGnome1 votes

Sorry but I don't think you're being all that unbiased. You say things like "weak early game"...which isn't really true at all...he has the ability to set up HUGE mid ganks with his jungler at level two. You say he doesn't have room in his build for defense items....yet he's the only character in the game that when played by a high skill level person can have 1000 AP with only 4 items.

Veigar is a mid-game beast because of his team initiation and 2-shot combo vs most opposing AP mids...most high level people I see play him play him with mobility boots to counter his slow movement and to run into a fight like a mad man, stun half the enemy team instantly and it's bye bye. His main weakness is a late game weakness when the entire team can afford to buy a QSS.

Veigar has always been a middle of the road balanced champion.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

He can't really be buffed with his current E

The ability to click someone from ~750 range and remove them from a fight makes him difficult to balance

Giving it a set up delay like Viktor would allow him to be buffed in other areas

Yoella1 votes

Yeah but Viktor's a slow and a stun, and isn't just the outer edges.

But I see what you're getting at and I'd totally be down for that.

7ha7guy7771 votes

viktor vs veigar is really annoying yet surprisingly fun because of this. it becomes a stun war and an arms race. viktor naturally gets a lot of ap per level because of the hexcore so he either needs to build tons of mr to attempt to counter veigar's ult or say f it and go glass cannon because he knows that the ult will kill him either way so if he can land his combo first or veigar's ult is on cd he wins. because of the way the stuns work, veigar almost always wins the stun war if he lands the edge, but will get stunned in the process if viktor lands his gravity field too.

GoldenLeSpoink1 votes

I have never had a problem with Veigar, I feel that his kit is one of the most balanced kits in the whole game. You have multiple paths to choose from:

  1. Harass in lane
  2. Punish/Farm
  3. Farm Stack
  4. Supportive

My usual playstyle is #2, as it fits my overall play style with everyone; What you do is farm, and when you see the enemy champion go for you or a CS; you EW, and continue. This allows me to safety farm, while also keeping my enemy afraid of me. What most Veigar do however, is #1 or #3, which aren't necessarily good on some match ups. For example, you are going against a Yasuo, your goal is to make sure he will not farm under any circumstances, this is where #1 comes into place or #2. Due, to many Veigars thinking that STACKS>Everything (only works with Nasus), they fail to lane correctly and end up dying constantly and feeding the opponent. Veigar is a champion that is not really based on his kit, but rather on how you manipulate the kit.

Kingsgrave1 votes

His Q and R basically do the same thing. We don't need a champion with 2 of the same thing on their kit.

Javvek1 votes

Make veigar manaless. I'll be happy ;)

Jungle Lux God1 votes

From the standpoint of someone who doesn't play Veigar, I feel like a lot of points you made are really weird. Here's some of my thoughts:

-His E is extremely powerful for a crowd control ability, as very few champions have a crowd control ability as strong as it, let alone on a basic ability. For reference, Event Horizon makes the dreaded Dark Binding look like a joke.

-Veigar is tied with a few other ranged champions for the highest base movement speed among ranged champions. While that doesn't say that he doesn't need movement speed, that also suggests that he doesn't need it as badly as he seems to need it, especially when you count his Event Horizon.

-Everyone needs to farm CS, and his Event Horizon lets him contribute effectively if he either falls behind or hasn't hit his late game yet.

-Doesn't require a full combo if he has DFG. If you don't have DFG on him, then I'm reasonably certain you are doing something wrong.

Yoella1 votes

-Veigar is tied with a few other ranged champions for the highest base movement speed among ranged champions.

Yeah he is, but his range is among the lowest of ranged champions. Add that to how meltable he is and it's tricky to attack and not be killed.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

If you have your E off cooldown, that technically would not be that big of a problem because, if I'm not mistaken, the stun comes out extremely quickly, and your opponents will melt to Veigar's burst as fast as you do to their burst, especially with DFG.

FebruAhri1 votes

imo his ult is retarded since it completely shuts down the enemy mid if they're ap. If they try to build even a tiny bit of ap, you can say goodbye to that healthbar because only 150+MR with no AP can survive his ult

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