Now that the ardent meta is no longer here, can ignite be nerfed back to its earlier damage values?

Frontline Fury··68 votes·15,983 views

Ignite is clearly balanced against the heal/shield-excessive ardent censer meta - that one that stopped existing over a year ago. Today, ANYTHING with ignite can easily 100-0 every marksman in the game that hasn't completed their 5th item yet just by using all the spells in their kit once. It doesn't matter what you're playing - flash ignite RQWE and the marksman WILL die.

Before you call me out as an adc main, i'm a top lane main. I main juggernauts. My favourite champions are Mordekaiser and Darius.

Marksmen are getting blown up by EVERYTHING. Supports? Check. Tanks? Check. Assassins? Check.

You know what doesn't blow up marksmen?

Other marksmen. That's the only class in the entire game that can't reliably 100-0 a marksmen.

How many champions are we at now? 140? And nearly EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE can 100-0 a marksman just by smashing their face into their keyboard and dropping ignite on their victim.

Everybody knows by now that damage is excessive. It needs to be toned down across the boards - so why not start with the most universal offender, the one that allows players to succeed without even having the slightest clue how to play their champion?

62 Comments

Spank the Fox20 votes

They buffed Ignite in 8.6 though, well and truly after the Ardent meta.

Ignite was buffed to crowd out Teleport spam.

The23rdGamer7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGOA2lOu,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-12-02T14:48:11.101+0000)

They buffed Ignite in 8.6 though, well and truly after the Ardent meta.

Ignite was buffed to crowd out Teleport spam.

Finally someone who has their facts straight.

Dope Solo1 votes

I don't see that being likely. If anything, the hop on stun opponents that chunk you out to 50% in one rotation have encouraged taking teleport to avoid getting killed by ignite.

dunder kill1 votes

Nope it's 100% correct. TP was getting taken every lane even on a lot of ADCs.

ArtumisPrime8 votes

This is the correct answer.

Terozu10 votes

Actually ignite is balanced specifically to crowd out teleport.

Summonah123692 votes

{quoted}

Actually ignite is balanced specifically to crowd out teleport.

Teleport? How?

Theorchero2 votes

{quoted}

Actually ignite is balanced specifically to crowd out teleport.

lol I love how you got downvoted by silver players despite this literally being true.

Ignite is as strong as it is to encourage its use vs tp top/mid and exhaust bottom.

Terozu1 votes

Yeah the worst part about the downvotes is that it was literally the stated reason for the changes by Riot...

datfatguy10 votes

Riot? Nerf damage?

As much as it should happen, I really don't think it will. Instead they'll probably buff heals and shields then realise that they buffed it too much so then buff damage to counter it and just continue the cycle.

Frog goes moo7 votes

I agree ignite should be nerfed but, Marksmen are supposed to be able to be RQWE'd and beaten in one shot. They sacrifice defense for damage.

Every post I see, It's like marksmen want every other role to do no damage while they just kite around them and use resourceless AA's.

You say other marksmen can't blow other marksmen up? Ya sure? There was a post a month ago of a clip of a miss fortune Q taking 75 percent of another enemy adc's health and the entire post was centered around "This game has too much damage."

Supports? If you're talking about ap supports, the majority of them are ap mages that people just take bot side. Assassins? Obviously buddy. Tanks? Which tanks? The majority of champions that are tanks are secondarily a fighter or primarily a fighter and secondarily tank. If they're building full tank though, they won't be able to kill you in one go. Champions like Nasus or tahm kench can do this but that's because of their passives but these are champions that can be easily peeled.

I think the real change we need is voice chat. Both tanks and marksmen (in high elo) have lost some popularity just because of how team reliant they are and because they're champions that have to scale into what their class is. Most of what's meta now are just assassins and fighters since it's solo queue which are champions with the most agency. They require little team coordination to execute their abilities and setup, and the majority of them abuse mobility creep to the fullest.

saltran1 votes

Before you call me out as an adc main, i'm a top lane main. I main juggernauts. My favourite champions are Mordekaiser and Darius.

Man, he even says that on the OP and you still go with the narrative of "adc mains want all dmg to be bursted so they can kite and kill everyone"

Maybe it sounds crazy to you but it's not only adc mains the ones that want Ignite to be nerfed.

Bloodnacht6 votes

Marksmen are getting blown up by EVERYTHING. Supports?

You lost the argument with that Phrase, Tell beside Tahm and Taric which support can blow you away?

lil koda12 votes

thresh at level 6 with ignite can 100-0 an adc, pyke obviously, zilean after first or second back with level 3 bombs can (if not kill) force an adc to go back with one rotation and ignite, bard at like level fucking 3-4 needs to land q auto ignite and you die or go back to base, even fucking nami at 6 can 100-0 an adc if she managed to land ult bubble. lmao

Death by Glamour2 votes

lets not forget karma and the rest of the "AP" supports

Frog goes moo3 votes

Most of the"ap" supports you're implying are primarily mages. People just take them as support either because they can grant a shield to themselves and another teamate and they make the laning phase easier with their high amounts of base damage.

Póppy Chulo2 votes

They take mages supp cause they basically gain the same amount of gold as the adc, and deal tons of damage reliably. You cant counter a Brand combo with a Janna shield.

3TWarrior3 votes

zilean would take a bit more than that

he hits hard, but he's medium for damage levels. If you mean 2 levels of q, he does 230 + 180% AP + spellthief and any other effects or attacks such as his basic attack

it depends upon what item he ends up with, but it's not that great, so let's assume he has the highest possible early game damage setup somehow

230 + 180% AP + frostfangitem 3098 ( 18 * 3) + auto attack(56 physical ) + ignite + dark harvest (roughly 45 + 15% ap) + scorch(roughly 12) + cheap shot (roughly 12 true damage)

we end up with 56 ability power(including runes and shards); 230 + 54 + 45 + 12 = 341 + 180% ap +15% ap = 341 + 109 = 450 magic damage roughly + 56 physical damage + ( 130 + 12 = 142 ) true damage

to recap: 450 magic ; 56 physical, 142 true . While impressive, it won't 100 - 0

this build also leaves you vulnerable that you will not have manaflow band and other utility aspects

if you are a solo lane zilean (such as mid) you can increase these numbers more, but not by much

at level 5, the numbers are by my estimate about 170 higher + differences in farm if in solo lane

lil koda1 votes

"if not kill, force adc out of lane"

AjXtar5 votes

Alistar can take a lot of marksman's hp. Leona, Annie, Zyra, brand, Vel'koz, Janna is a great at poking, Sona, Pyke, Lux, Blitz,

Add that to that ignite too and there goes the adc.

Bloodnacht7 votes

{quoted}

Alistar can take a lot of marksman's hp. Leona, Annie, Zyra, brand, Vel'koz, Janna is a great at poking, Sona, Pyke, Lux, Blitz,

Add that to that ignite too and there goes the adc.

Leona, Alistar, Sona. Blitz and Janna can't one on one an adc, if they're with supp builds so dont spew non sense. Beand, Vel'koz, Annie, Zyra, Lux and Pyke arent supports, try again.

Buzzkillington05 votes

Leona can't one on one an adc dont spew non sense

This is what we're saying now huh

Tahminatrix 2 votes

It can go either way considering "Lucian can kill a 200 armor Leona in 4 seconds" being the new trend / argument against damage.

Revan Sedai3 votes

{quoted}

Beand, Vel'koz, Annie, Zyra, Lux and Pyke arent supports, try again.

Uhhh,,, Annie, Vel'koz and Lux I'll give you. One of those however was specifically designed as a support, the other is only played support, despite being designed as a mid laner.

PlsBuffMyMain3 votes

{quoted}

You lost the argument with that Phrase, Tell beside Tahm and Taric which support can blow you away?

Alistar, Pyke, Zyra, Brand easily.

Bloodnacht2 votes

{quoted}

Pyke, Zyra, Brand easily.

Not Supports, try again.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Pyke was legitimately designed to be played in the botlane in the support role though.

He counts.

And while Zyra&brand arent "supports" they still only see play botlane by now, they dont work mid anymore as far as i know.

Since they occupy the support role you might as well call them thus.

SH Azykan1 votes

brand works mid pick him into most mages mid and he does just fine. he just struggles with champs like akali

Thefrostyviking1 votes

That´s kinda rich, OP.GG puts his worst counters as Ziggs, malzahar and then pyke.

Followed by kassadin and ahri on a shared 4th spot (~47,5% winrate for both matchups), then Xerath.

Brand gets countered by tons of things, his biggest issue is that he cant farm and harass at the same time and he is slow as hell making him a prime target for both asssassins and skillshot mages.

He is only really good for bully slow and obvious targets that have to get into his face which would be non assassin melee, short range mages and oddballs like azir.

Which makes him a damn terrible midlaner given that those matchups are rare.

Terozu1 votes

Zyra was changed to being a support, Pyke is intentionally a support, brand is played more often support than mid.

Marian Cross1 votes

legit any support with ignite+full combo

Also its true damage so point click "X" amount of damage

Póppy Chulo1 votes

Can i confirm you arent suggesting that Tahm and Taric are the only supports blowing people away.

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

You lost the argument with that Phrase, Tell beside Tahm and Taric which support can blow you away?

Zyra Sona Soraka Janna Nami Braum Alistar Bard Thresh Pyke Brand Veigar Fiddlesticks Karma Leona Nautilus Morgana Lux Lulu Rakan Shaco Sion Swain Velkoz Zilean Xerath

Any of these champions with ignite can, besides easily outtrading any other marksman than the absolute best Lucian players, reliably kill any marksman in the game in a 1v1 scenario up until the marksman completes their 2nd or 3rd item.

And this is provided the marksman can survive their lane until they complete their 2nd or 3rd item. If any of these supports pick up kills or assists, they'll get cannonballed further ahead and turn out much stronger than their opponent.

Marksmen basically have the role supports used to have before support items were introduced to the game. You hope to Riot that your support lets you tag along with them EVERYWHERE and that they'll take you to a lane where you can pick up some minions, because if you ever go alone you're gonna get towerdived by the enemy jungler or mid laner after they reach level 6.

Acrilyk31 votes

{quoted}

You lost the argument with that Phrase, Tell beside Tahm and Taric which support can blow you away?

Pyke? Zyra? Brand? VelKoz? Leona? Hell, even Braum and Sona? Are we playing the same game?

Nea1045 votes

It wasn't "balanced" against that. The Ardent Censer was long gone already at the time.

Ignite was "balanced" only for the burst/one-shot meta.

Frosted Tips4 votes

Honestly the ignite buffs made no sense. Like ok 10 damage early that is a fine buff because people would just pot up a and take almost no damage, but the late game on ignite did not need any buff. It felt good to use before the buff. I just felt like they decided to buff it for no reason and now it is super despised.

Lolman9784 votes

Seems Ignite isn't looking too

hot

PaffWasTaken3 votes

The problem isn't marksmens getting exploded by everyone: the problem is everyone being able to blow up everyone way too easily and way too fast. Everything related to damage in the game needs to be nerfed without exception, and this includes indeed ignite, which makes everyone's life worse, not only marksmen players

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

The problem isn't marksmens getting exploded by everyone: the problem is everyone being able to blow up everyone way too easily and way too fast. Everything related to damage in the game needs to be nerfed without exception, and this includes indeed ignite, which makes everyone's life worse, not only marksmen players

Oh yes, but the reason i pinpoint marksmen is that they're a full roster of champions who CAN'T 100-0 other champions with only a single half-completed item. They also have a total of three defensive items they can viably build, and even then they practically cripple themselves by doing so. (item 3156 item 3139 item 3026

Every other class in the game benefits so much from base stats that they can easily 100-0 each other in a few seconds with less than one full item. But marksmen? They typically need two full items before they can even deal any noticeable damage - and that's in the space of 10 seconds.

It's not like i want the adc meta back. I just want to have SOME incentive to pick ANY other marksman than Jhin because he's the only one with scalings and item interactions crazy enough to let him compete with stuff like Veigar Lissandra Ziggs Heimerdinger in the bot lane.

Theorchero1 votes

Honestly why are you crying?

ADCs are supposed to be paper. That's because they build nothing but damage. In fact, the reason they're so innately squishy is that they defensive stats that scale with their offensive ones. Their damage items, you guessed it, also provide defense! You get guardian angel, PD's % reduction, bloodthirster's shield, on top of a whole ROLE dedicated to making sure your ass can farm!

So if you eat every damn ability from someone on top of their ignite, you should die! It's functioning as fucking intended.

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly why are you crying?

ADCs are supposed to be paper. That's because they build nothing but damage. In fact, the reason they're so innately squishy is that they defensive stats that scale with their offensive ones. Their damage items, you guessed it, also provide defense! You get guardian angel, PD's % reduction, bloodthirster's shield, on top of a whole ROLE dedicated to making sure your ass can farm!

So if you eat every damn ability from someone on top of their ignite, you should die! It's functioning as fucking intended.

The problem is that adcs CANNOT build anything but damage. If they build defensive items they do not contribute to their team in anyway - and at the moment they are FORCED to build defensive items just to play the game, otherwise anything with ignite can press flash when it's up to instantly kill them.

Ignite has gone from the spell you use to counter healing and high resistances to the spell you use whenever you are trying to get a kill - it has such a low cooldown there's never NEVER a reason to save it for later. By the time you need it again it'll be off cooldown!

Theorchero1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGOA2lOu,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-12-04T06:40:08.236+0000)

The problem is that adcs CANNOT build anything but damage. If they build defensive items they do not contribute to their team in anyway - and at the moment they are FORCED to build defensive items just to play the game, otherwise anything with ignite can press flash when it's up to instantly kill them.

Ignite has gone from the spell you use to counter healing and high resistances to the spell you use whenever you are trying to get a kill - it has such a low cooldown there's never NEVER a reason to save it for later. By the time you need it again it'll be off cooldown!

Yeah except their offensive items, have, you guessed it, defensive stats! On top of a goddamn role that's solely to protect them!

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah except their offensive items, have, you guessed it, defensive stats! On top of a goddamn role that's solely to protect them!

Which offensive marksman item has defensive stats besides item 3026 item 3156 item 3046 and item 3139?

Most other champions have item 3143 item 3742 item 3075 item 3068 item 3025 item 3800 item 3110 item 3065 item 3194 item 3001 item 3053 item 3748 item 3022 item 3071 item 3157 item 3090 item 3170 item 3102 item 3091. Only two of these items are even remotely viable on three of the marksmen in the game, and all of these can be efficiently picked up as first buy items that still allow a marksman to take part in gameplay.

Build a defensive item first as a marskman today and you're effectively a walking bag of gold. You're not dealing any damage, and unless you're playing Ashe Jhin or Jinx you cannot contribute ANYTHING to your team, because you do not attack fast enough to validate the risk required or low damage per hit of attacking an enemy. All other champions in the game have high enough base damage on their abilities to still participate even without items.

Theorchero1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGOA2lOu,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-05T04:36:15.880+0000)

Which offensive marksman item has defensive stats besides item 3026 item 3156 item 3046 and item 3139?

Yeah, so 2 items ADCs want to build every game have strong defensive capabilities. They also don't even lose damage for building a QSS!

But since there's other items that adcs want to build that aren't as good defensively it totally undermines my point, right?

Also lifesteal and bloodthirster are defensive in nature and the former scales harshly the more damage you do.

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, so 2 items ADCs want to build every game have strong defensive capabilities. They also don't even lose damage for building a QSS!

But since there's other items that adcs want to build that aren't as good defensively it totally undermines my point, right?

Also lifesteal and bloodthirster are defensive in nature and the former scales harshly the more damage you do.

Lifesteal? Really?

In a game where a core item for mages is item 3165 and EVERY champion that wants to deal damage, even junglers, run summoner 14 while building item 3285 item 3147 item 3142 with https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/9/9e/Dark_Harvest_rune.png or https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/0a/Electrocute_rune.png/revision/latest?cb=20171126182032 ? Do you REALLY expect a marksman to benefit off lifesteal, even item 3080, when they'll at most heal for 30 health while their opponent deals 200+ on every single hit? And that is WITHOUT slapping grievous wounds on them, of course. Which they do, because everyone and their grandmother runs ignite these days.

On a sidenote i actually haven't seen QSS picked up ONCE in the entirety of preseason. It's not worth the buy because you don't live long enough to negate any CC or debuffs anyway. Everyone would rather opt into item 3026 in the hopes it'll keep them alive past the cooldowns of their aggressors.

Theorchero1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGOA2lOu,comment-id=000b00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-05T04:58:56.804+0000)

Lifesteal? Really?

In a game where a core item for mages is item 3165 and EVERY champion that wants to deal damage, even junglers, run summoner 14 while building item 3285 item 3147 item 3142 with https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/9/9e/Dark_Harvest_rune.png or https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/0a/Electrocute_rune.png/revision/latest?cb=20171126182032 ? Do you REALLY expect a marksman to benefit off lifesteal, even item 3080, when they'll at most heal for 30 health while their opponent deals 200+ on every single hit? And that is WITHOUT slapping grievous wounds on them, of course. Which they do, because everyone and their grandmother runs ignite these days.

On a sidenote i actually haven't seen QSS picked up ONCE in the entirety of preseason. It's not worth the buy because you don't live long enough to negate any CC or debuffs anyway. Everyone would rather opt into item 3026 in the hopes it'll keep them alive past the cooldowns of their aggressors.

When adcs heal for 20% of total damage dealt they aren't healing for 30.

Bloodthirster also gives a fat shield.

And QSS should be bought in far more games than it is. Just because you're bad or most players are bad doesn't mean it's not a good item to help deal with lockdown and burst lineups. Besides, ADCs have best in class damage and burst over time. They just need to scale over time.

You're kidding if you think ADCs are in a horrible spot. They're just not top dog like they usually are every game for the past 8 fucking years.

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

When adcs heal for 20% of total damage dealt they aren't healing for 30.

Bloodthirster also gives a fat shield.

And QSS should be bought in far more games than it is. Just because you're bad or most players are bad doesn't mean it's not a good item to help deal with lockdown and burst lineups. Besides, ADCs have best in class damage and burst over time. They just need to scale over time.

You're kidding if you think ADCs are in a horrible spot. They're just not top dog like they usually are every game for the past 8 fucking years.

Have you actually played adc at all in the last two patches? Once again, grievous wounds EVERYWHERE limits healing - and even then you're lucky to survive the burst from any other class of champions than enchanters.

Qss isn't being bought because lockdown isn't a problem - burst damage is. Maw of malmortius is straight up superior to QSS in nearly every single situation because if you get hit by CC you're dead anyway.

Bloodnacht1 votes

You people are getting dumber with each post, you think that a support its the champion that is PLAYED bot lane in one of i have no idea autofilled Player it doesnt mean that CHAMPION its a support, HELL in DOTA you could play support with PUDGE the only difference what made him SUPPORT that game was simple by having Shiva's Guard, Guinsoo's Scythe, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Orchid Malevolence, Force Staff, Mekansm, Arcane Boots, Khadgard's Pipe of Insight, Urn of Shadows, Flying Courier + Share to the team. That's what made in dota 1 a SUPPORT being SUPPORT, the ITEMS.

While in LoL, if you think a supports its only by what RITO stated that the SPECIFIC CHAMPION they created has SUPPORT role, that's pure BS, i don't see any the SUPPORT you mentioned in those list(beside me playing) with any support items beside Spellthief or Relic, buying that first ITEM DOESN'T make you a SUPPORT, deal with it.

Enlighten me how many time have you seen a Zyra, Brand, Puke, Tahm, Braum, Nami, Janna, Sona, Lulu, Morgana, Lux, Taric to name few with Redemption on them? indeed, pretty ,much never, they all went if AP directly to Echo;s Luden or Rylai Staff and if AD, straight to Righteous Glory, Iceborn Gauntlet or your so called Pyke with DUSKBLADE and YOOMU's Blade. Those are not supports items, no fuck off.

Naalith1 votes

But how are pro players supposed to get kills against people with near perfect defense without overloaded damage? Everyone knows the game is more fun if it's balanced around the highest level of play, just look at how this game turned out the last few years.

altair25251 votes

those damn support sorakas gotta stop 100-0 the marksmen with their ignites man

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