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Where's my support item as a melee tank support?

Frontline Fury··127 votes·22,895 views

I see the new support item changes, and can only think...

What Taric am Braum i Alistar supposed Blitzcrank to Leona build Nautilus with Shen my Sion severe Volibear poke Chogath susceptibility Malphite and Galio low Gragas regen?

Thanks for just utterly gutting any and all melee champions in bot lane. We get it, you only want to see high burst pure damage casters. We get it already. It's forbidden to play champions without extremely low mana costs and either high range or high Pyke sustain. So where are we supposed to play all the melee tanks that each have abilities that cost 80+ mana at level 1? That's 40% of our max mana pool. With lower mana regen than any other champion class in the game. And now we've lost our health sustain as well.

Am i supposed to bring Taric into top lane with his extremely low base health, gutted base armor and ridiculous mana costs? Am i supposed to start playing Nautilus in mid lane just because the pros pulled it off once or twice?

Are you going to pretend Alistar has been a viable jungler for the past three four years?

No compensation buffs whatsoever? Nothing? You just completely forgot these champions existed because you were so obsessed about all the fancy burst mages and assassins in bot lane and their upcoming pop star + prestige skins?

Just another slap in the face to tank players. I get that we're supposed to soak damage but i wish it didn't have to be psychological as well. Believe it or not, we actually do like being able to play the game. We don't just want to get hit by every new wide-hitbox skillshot on the new super-kiter CC-bot ranged champion/caster of the month.

233 Comments

Arcane Azmadi36 votes

Look on the bright side, poke supports are getting fucked as well by the removal of the MP5 and on-hit damage on the Spellthief/Sickle line. So it's just going to be an all-ADC party again I guess.

Frontline Fury41 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcane Azmadi,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TqfEB5hI,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-20T00:25:51.496+0000)

Look on the bright side, poke supports are getting fucked as well by the removal of the MP5 and on-hit damage on the Spellthief/Sickle line. So it's just going to be an all-ADC party again I guess.

At least there is ONE semi-tank support that benefits from the new support items. Thresh funny how he JUST SO HAPPENS to be getting a pulsefire skin as well! What a coincidence!

Sir Saltarin31 votes

Oh boy I have bad news for my premade main Braum.

Fuck this preseason.

Abibyama II1 votes

I don't get it.

I don't really play support so I didn't read the support changes that much but..

Can't you just build tank since you get free support items with your quest?

blindasleep12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Abibyama II,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TqfEB5hI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-20T10:01:04.842+0000)

I don't get it.

I don't really play support so I didn't read the support changes that much but..

Can't you just build tank since you get free support items with your quest?

You wont be able to afford any items if you fall behind at all, and even then the overall economy for supports goes way down if you aren't getting assist or doing things that will likely get you flamed if your team isn't already winning hard.

ff 20 please ty21 votes

tbh tanks have had a bad spot for a while in the bot lane now to make it worse kinda sucks for support players, tbh the way to counter it is dont play tanks support, which i know sucks

Frontline Fury14 votes

[{quoted}](name=u aint cute,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TqfEB5hI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-20T00:15:10.761+0000)

tbh tanks have had a bad spot for a while in the bot lane now to make it worse kinda sucks for support players, tbh the way to counter it is dont play tanks support, which i know sucks

Which is why i posted. Taric has been my main support since the end of season 2, and while i CAN play Karma or Thresh i can't really get very good at them because they are simply not enjoyable to me. They don't feel good to play at all, and i usually need a break from league for several hours after a full game with either of them.

Yuumi was an exception due to her similarity to old Soraka, but good luck getting a single draft pick match where she isn't picked or banned.

I'm a top lane main, so of course this is a clear sign from Riot that they want me to go back to top lane and STAY THERE. But i still get burnt out from playing the same lane over and over, especially with how extremely demanding and intense it is due to it's 1v1/1v2 nature and how it can end the game for your entire team if you fail to play it safely. It can be exhausting, and support used to be a welcome break. Now, i have no way to heal myself back up after taking any poke in a lane that intensely favours champions with extremely long range, high mobility and large hitbox / AOE spells.

I just don't like that Riot has turned long-range, squishy burst mages into the supports that typically stand in the front line in front of their marksman, while the tank supports have to stand in the backline hiding behind their marksman to shield themselves from being poked down until their flash is up and they can attempt an all-in or counter all-in.

They should already know what happens when they create champions like Qiyana and then phase ANY champions capable of peeling her off out of the game. Nobody will be happy with this. Everyone is going to be miserable, and burst mage / assassin players will once again face extreme prejudice and discrimination because of their natures.

Change is good. I wish Riot would try it once in a while, rather than recycling the toxic changes of the past four years.

Ooduwa10 votes

Naut, Leona, & Blitz have been dominating bot for months. How does this nonsense get upvoted?

Nea10418 votes

{quoted}

Naut, Leona, & Blitz have been dominating bot for months. How does this nonsense get upvoted?

Because of their hard CCs (that in this burst meta guarantee insta-kills), not because of their "tankiness", if any.

floo8 votes

Leona's W buffs made her the only genuinely tanky support atm.. the rest just melts regardless.

Sunbreaker3 votes

Tanks have a bad spot in bot? Are we ignoring the fact that the 3 best supports at the moment are tanks? Blitzcrank Leona Nautilus

blindasleep5 votes

{quoted}

Tanks have a bad spot in bot? Are we ignoring the fact that the 3 best supports at the moment are tanks? Blitzcrank Leona Nautilus

Not anymore.

LightswornLance5 votes

Not in this preseason, their first item has been gutted and their items after that have always sucked. Aftershock is getting gutted too. Expect full damage mage supports being meta, as their counter, hard engage has been hard nerfed.

Naalith21 votes

"We hate when game mechanics facilitate low interaction, which is why we're making it so melee tank supports will never ever walk up under any circumstance lest they lose all their health from a mage and have no way to heal it back."

Also, the Aftershock early game nerf also smacks these champions around pretty hard. Even Pyke is gonna get rekt with the relic healing and aftershock stats gone.

gibedepusib0ss21 votes

Another disgusting oversight by Riot. This'll just push the current damage support meta overboard and get rid any diversity in the support role. Forcing junglers and top laners to play the tank every game. I wish they'd stop ruining their own game just for one season, Christ this is awful.

TheFailingMonkey15 votes

Y'know if you think about it notice that every tank support that has a "chance" of winning lane has a hookThresh Blitzcrank Leona Nautilus (maybe you need to be ranged to win in the first place), every other tank is absolute garbage from the itemizationitem 3190 item 3109 item 3050 (btw these are actually all the items a tank support can actually build, everything else is balanced for regular tanks so when you're a tank support with low gold getting these items is practically impossible), base stats, and how they're removing relic shield's heal for next season. It's already bad with Alistar and Braum win-rate. I truly fear for tanks supports next season.

Pendergast89114 votes

{quoted}

Y'know if you think about it notice that every tank support that has a "chance" of winning lane has a hookThresh Blitzcrank Leona Nautilus (maybe you need to be ranged to win in the first place), every other tank is absolute garbage from the itemizationitem 3190 item 3109 item 3050 (btw these are actually all the items a tank support can actually build, everything else is balanced for regular tanks so when you're a tank support with low gold getting these items is practically impossible), base stats, and how they're removing relic shield's heal for next season. It's already bad with Alistar and Braum win-rate. I truly fear for tanks supports next season.

hook supports have been really strong for a while because of the amount of damage you take if you get cc'd once in lane. In the last 2 seasons at least when you get hit by any of their abilities youre chunked for over half your hp, or just dead.

LightswornLance11 votes

Actually nautilus was first played in mid top and jungle and slowly over the years has become a support. I wouldn't mind him switching back to a solo laner / jungler.

Spooky Skeleton11 votes

Season 11 they'll remove tank items Season 12 they'll remove tanks

Troll Slaiyer7 votes

theyre adding a support item with ad and hp for pyke players only

EATARI4 votes

It’s also good for Senna, Pantheon, Ashe, and a couple others. It makes AD supports more viable and allows for more champion diversity. I am, however, concerned that the removal of coin and the shift of power to offence in shield will end up reducing the champion diversity, kicking a lot of tank supports who have poor AP/AD scaling out of the role.

CaptainAntiHeroz5 votes

Its still the relic shield line just now there are two options?

ModKnightsKemplar7 votes

The issue is that each of them have offensive stats, which doesn't feel great as a support that does not scale with those.

Arguably, they all do a bit, but I understand the frustration. It's taking power out of tankiness and putting on offensive stats that melee supports like Taric don't get to access super often.

It might be fine. Time will tell.

WoonStruck1 votes

I mean, Taric scales pretty damn well with AD due to his passive.

While he'd prefer mana regen and HP regen, considering how abysmal being a melee non-hook support with high mana costs is, he'll use the AD very well.

Frontline Fury3 votes

{quoted}

I mean, Taric scales pretty damn well with AD due to his passive.

While he'd prefer mana regen and HP regen, considering how abysmal being a melee non-hook support with high mana costs is, he'll use the AD very well.

His entire kit scales with AP and armor. He is THE most mana-hungry melee champion in the game. His passive depends on spellweaving, being designed before every single champion release came with at least one mobility spell and one form of hard-to-dodge crowd control.

WoonStruck3 votes

Entire kit scales with AP?

Really? His 20% AP ratio Q heal, unless you wait 15 seconds so you have 5 charges for a grand total of an abysmal 100% heal ratio on a 75 second CD.

His E only scales with 50% AP. You really think that 20 additional damage is going to be better than the 60 additional damage from a SINGLE use of his passive when he's spamming spells in fights to activate it?

Ever since his rework, Taric has scaled absolutely horribly with AP.

PB4UAME10 votes

Except, those now have a longer cooldown, and have less charges, no longer heal, and no longer provide any HP regen, but instead offer AD/AP, cause tanks totally need damage.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

Except, those now have a longer cooldown, and have less charges, no longer heal, and no longer provide any HP regen, but instead offer AD/AP, cause tanks totally need damage.

except now you can focus on building those items soooooooo

Sir Saltarin4 votes

Stop.

The new supp items give offensive stats are just worthless stats on many supps tanks. They are paying for stats they barely use.

It's bad for them, period.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TqfEB5hI,comment-id=0004000100000001,timestamp=2019-11-20T12:28:41.404+0000)

Stop.

The new supp items give offensive stats are just worthless stats on many supps tanks. They are paying for stats they barely use.

It's bad for them, period.

BRUH YOU LITERALLY GO INTO YOUR ACTUAL BUILD SOONER BECAUSE OF THEM USE YOUR BRAIN

Sir Saltarin3 votes

Calm down.

Champs as Braum that don't capitalize on having offensive stats are being nerfed.

Because all supps have the new system of supp items. However some use them worse since the items have stats that are worthless for them.

If you want to know if Braum is nerfed or not for this change dont compare S9 Braum to S10 Braum. That's pointless and I think that's what you were doing.

Compare the strenght that S10 Braum has to the rest of supps on S10.

He doesn't use part of the stats that he's forced to buy. Therebefore, when you compare him to the rest of supps that do use all the stats with the new items he's weaker.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TqfEB5hI,comment-id=000400010000000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-20T18:59:00.981+0000)

Calm down.

Champs as Braum that don't capitalize on having offensive stats are being nerfed.

Because all supps have the new system of supp items. However some use them worse since the items have stats that are worthless for them.

If you want to know if Braum is nerfed or not for this change dont compare S9 Braum to S10 Braum. That's pointless and I think that's what you were doing.

Compare the strenght that S10 Braum has to the rest of supps on S10.

He doesn't use part of the stats that he's forced to buy. Therebefore, when you compare him to the rest of supps that do use all the stats with the new items he's weaker.

you still have all that gold to buy other items now

Plus since ad goes into last hitting minions and AA the power of the item is just shifted

Sir Saltarin5 votes

you still have all that gold to buy other items now

When you write this it means that you either dont read my comment or you are just dense.

I repeat, you are comparing S10 Supp items with S9 Supp items and that's literallyirrelevant for what I'm saying.

I'm not discussing how the new Supp items system works, by the way you only list the good part and ignore that once you finish the quest you wont get more extra gold, Supps now get to their lasts items later. But, that's not even the point.

The point is that since there's no pure tank Supp item now, some champs are forced to buy offensive stats that are worthless on them.

Which makes those supps on S10 worse than the rest of supps on S10.

Is that clear ?

You Are Cute XD3 votes

Enchanters are in the same boat. Lose the mana regen and CDR in exchange for 500 gold.

Metal Janna4 votes

Good that tank supports are losing their health sustain. You shouldn't be able to sit around in front of your ADC soaking up pokes and providing kill pressure all lane long without fear of dying because you just heal pokes right off. Poke is supposed to beat tank.

I was disappointed that my Supporianna wouldn't be able to get access to that sustain via new Relic but since tank and hook supports are losing it too it evens out.

Fuhrer Usagi14 votes

So what you're saying is that the tank should not be able to tank and should be bullied out of lane like all the squishies so that the poke champs can force the adc off all farm.

Might as well delete all tanks then if they aren't allowed to be tanky.

preternatural3 votes

you aren't actually allowed a functioning tank support item because that means tank meta and tank meta is bad times. you can have a barely serviceable item though.

TheFailingMonkey8 votes

Actually, Riot had a solution once by making supports have their item shop separate from the regular items, but Riot decided it would be too much work. Ironically now poke supports can take mage items(which are super cheap btw) and poke you even harder out the lane.

Saezio16 votes

How was s9 tank meta?

preternatural15 votes

{quoted}

How was s9 tank meta?

it wasn't, that's the point. the best sion player, for instance, plays him full lethality.

Illabethe1 votes

Nothing in Sion's kit even comes close to being tank oriented, even though people claim he's a tank.

Look at Ornn's Season 9 rework if you want a tank, and he actually does succeed at one. Level 12/13 Upgrades + Armor/resist in passive cemented his as finally being a strong tank.

PB4UAME14 votes

LMFAO what. Two AoE hard CCs unmitigated by tenacity, which require staying still, or running straight into the enemy team to land, leaving you quite susceptible to poke, burst, AoE, ground targeted abilities, and puts you in auto range of every ranged champion. His other abilities are an AoE slow, and a shield scaling with max health. How in the actual fuck is that kit anything but a vanguard kit?

Illabethe2 votes

...... that have 342% AD scaling and up to 600% AD scaling respectively.

HP =/= tank.

He can perform building tank items, but he plays FAR more like a juggernaut than a vanguard, and tank build falls off late game.

Sukishoo7 votes

His title may be the undead juggernaut but he is indeed a vanguard champion. Juggernauts do not have the tools that he has.

Illabethe1 votes

Aatrox: Hard displacement, up to 3 knockups.

Trundle: Displacement (counts as a knockup)

Urgot: Knockup, Displacement, Fear, has shields, Unmitigateable, Gap closer, self slows.... behaves a LOT like Sion.....

Volibear: Fast, Knockup, Displacement,

All 4 put them in range of ranged champs. All have knockups. All make themselves fairly immobile while acting.

I don't care what Wiki says. Sion's scalings betray a Tank title, and the Vanguard assignment was put on before they began reworking items, and there is generally very few distinctions between Juggernaut and Vanguard, other than the fact that both are engagers, except one is considered a tanky fighter, while the other is considered an offensive tank. (SAME FIN DIFFERENCE, except when in reality the "Tank" melts in 2-3 seconds and no longer makes sense at "getting things started.)

Fact is: Sion no longer sacrifices damage to do his job. Many "Tanks" classified as tanks are no longer played nor itemized as Tanks, because they've been reworked with high damage scaling, or items opened up for them, Malphite, Sion, Amumu, don't actually build tanky anymore, and Malphite and Amumu are both core AP build Class changers atm. Sion also is a class changer, but his play rate is too low to call it substantive. He hasn't been a "Tank" since they doubled his HP gain and diminished the need to itemize to tank.

Let me spell this out for you: I can jungle Sion, and be 16/0 by building item 1401 item 3142 . That's all I need to go 16/0, because jungle feeds me so much HP, that I can gank with impunity. I don't have to wait for people to attack me. I can attack THEM, and use Q simply so they can't escape.

Flens McOst11 votes

Dude, you're silver without a single sion game, outside of one aram in which you built tank. Your rant makes no sense. Just because some youtubers do a certain build, it doesnt mean anything

Illabethe1 votes
  1. I'm Diamond II.
  2. This is a smurf.
  3. I've played since Season 3.
  4. I used to play Sion. This account is only 1 year old. I can pick him up any time. He's just out of the meta, and even if I go 16/0 in the first ~15 minutes, I know that Sion just falls apart later.
GonahtanuGepardi12 votes
  1. I'm Diamond II.

Either that is a lie or that rank has literally no meaning in NA anymore these days. So that is not a thing that would make your arguments any stronger.

As someone who has been in master tier and is on an account that is currently in diamond (and not silver), I can with 100% confidence say that some of your arguments scream lack of game knowledge.

As an example

there is generally very few distinctions between Juggernaut and Vanguard, other than the fact that both are engagers, except one is considered a tanky fighter, while the other is considered an offensive tank. (SAME FIN DIFFERENCE, except when in reality the "Tank" melts in 2-3 seconds and no longer makes sense at "getting things started.)

Those very few distinctions can be the key distinctions and major ones at that. You said that both are engagers and yet you couldn't be more wrong. Juggernauts aren't engagers. They lack the tools in their kits to be able to RELIABLY FORCE a fight. That's what vanguards do. The definition of a vanguard is a tank (not tanky but a tank) that has the tools to force an engagement with ease. A good example of a vanguard is malphite. None of the juggernauts in the game match that criteria and they aren't as tanky as actual tank champions.

The definition of a juggernaut on the other hand is relatively easy to kite, durable but not as durable as a tank and has high damage if can get in range and lacks proper strong cc.

You ought to be ashamed if you actually got to diamond 2 with this little game knowledge. NA is truly going down fast.

Star PlatinumELO2 votes

not wasting a thousand gold on the support item makes getting that Crystaline Bracer and boots a hell of a lot fucking easier though, doesn't it?

GinoSoldier9 votes

Except after that you get fuck-all in gold because you have to resort to poaching your ADC or all-in repeatedly for kills, and then everyone hates you.

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