He has no proper itemization for an ad assassin. I end up just building Bloodthirsters and a trinity force on him. Can't Riot release some good items for AD casters? Tank'Zix does no damage and Damage'Zix is just awkward.
Coolio2063 votesIdk man, I like being able to stack BT's and heal to infinity. I mean you just max W and spam to get your isolation before going in with your E>W combo anyways.
But I agree, a new AD item would be nice. Preferably something that does AoE damage for teamfights.
Captain Kevo2 votesHydra does AoE damage.
Coolio2062 votes[{quoted}](name=Captain Kevo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGNfkcGn,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-04-20T06:58:43.985+0000)
Hydra does AoE damage.
? Is that a new champ?
Snow Taradien2 votesuh, bloodthirster is unique so, its passive doesn't stack with itself. However, you can get Bloodthirster and then the cheaper Essence reaver, whos stats are NOT unique.
stomped ur ass2 votesKha'Zix does feel like he is in a weird spot right now--especially with the recent tank meta. I feel like he can't counter-jungle like he used to. He can't be much of an impact in team fights like he used to. He can't survive in team fights like he used to.
He just seems like totally different champ with the exception that he still has huge damage with isolation.
My build is usually Hydra, LW, BT, IE, Mobis, BC or GA. I pretty much chunk an adc or any other squishy champ with 1 Q when they are isolated
But yeah, Kha'Zix needs a bit of attention.
qetzel2 votesYou'd probably be better stacking Armour penetration - it is the single best stat for AD casters.
Partholonian1 votesArpen itemization is a bit awkward right now though, and it's about to get worse for AD casters with the upcoming change to BC (making it more of a fighter item).
Does Kha'zix really work well with Ghostblade?
If he's resorting to % pen because flat pen items are just that bad (for him or in general), when he's not supposed to be picking fights with people who build armor in the first place, then it's a sign that something is seriously wrong, IMO.
Kholdstare132 votesKha is far from weak right now. I play him occasionally, but always feel cheap while doing so, since he's rather OP when played correctly.
Do you really need offense beyond 
, and often 
? That's a full assassin's build with 1 slot for armor. Some people try to 
, but I find it a waste.
Kha absolutely does NOT need buffs right now. I won't call for nerfs since there are far worse offenders, but just know he is very strong as he is.
grLKQ9ma0o2 votesHe's ridiculously weak. Ghostblade is a complete waste on him because he doesn't scale with attack speed. Getting cleaver is pointless because you can't stack it against them fast enough to be effective.
Usually at this point I just build him full AD 
This at least gives me the hope of deleting their carry if they get out of position, whereas anything less just doesn't do the trick.
Kholdstare132 votesHe's ridiculously weak. Ghostblade is a complete waste on him because he doesn't scale with attack speed. Getting cleaver is pointless because you can't stack it against them fast enough to be effective.
Usually at this point I just build him full AD
This at least gives me the hope of deleting their carry if they get out of position, whereas anything less just doesn't do the trick.
should be your first item, and you absolutely cannot neglect maxing your CDR with 
and runes. ends up being the best upgrade since, as you said, he's not much of a 
stacker (also for some reason they're removing brut from it? Meaning every AD in the game now has to build ghostblade... I do not understand Riot), and it lets you chase down targets you otherwise could not. The movespeed portion of the active cannot be overstated, and the attack speed is just a nice boost for when you need to duel heavier bruisers.
You still want a moderate bulk, hence the and 1 slot open for armor (
or 
), or 
/
/
if the enemy is AP-heavy and full built-in pen on their AD.
He is not by ANY means weak. He's not the single most broken cheese in game anymore finally after 10 rounds of nerfs, 
won that title back, but he's still top tier strong. I know lolking stats are pure BS, but you don't get a solid 53% winrate by being weak.
grLKQ9ma0o1 votesThe reason you get Cleaver is because you still get more AD and more armor penetration and health out of it than with ghostblade. The extra 10 flat armor pen is really easy to beat with cleaver's passive. All you have to do to stack cleaver is hit them once with W, proc hydra, land on them with E, auto, then Q. That can all be accomplished within the span of about 2 seconds, at which point you ignore over half their armor with cleaver and Last Whisper. The health and extra AD on cleaver is still worth more than the attack speed and movement speed of ghostblade.
The reason why I think Kha'zix is weak right now isn't because he struggles with tanks who stack armor.
The reason why he is weak is because he struggles with tanks that (hello cinderhulk) stack health. If he builds armor penetration, he deals less actual damage to their health. If he builds more damage to compensate for the cinderhulk health stack, he lacks durability and is easier to itemize against.
His damage is massively situational, and completely exploitable from a defensive perspective. Good luck finding anyone isolated in a teamfight when isolation is 500 range.
Also, by 53% winrate, do you mean his consistent 45% winrate across all elos for the past few months? Or are you talking about his 45% winrate in gold through diamond over the past few months? Or maybe you cherry picked his winrate from the volatile challenger graphics. I, too can do that. He had a 26% winrate in challenger on April 6th. He's obviously the worst champion in the game because of that number.
The reason Kha'zix can be viable sometimes is because of team comps. When he isn't facing the tanky team comps, that's a great time to pick him. The team comp picks are the reason his higher elo winrates are actually slightly higher than low elo. They pick him when they know it's safe to do so.
Kholdstare131 votesThe reason you get Cleaver is because you still get more AD and more armor penetration and health out of it than with ghostblade. The extra 10 flat armor pen is really easy to beat with cleaver's passive. All you have to do to stack cleaver is hit them once with W, proc hydra, land on them with E, auto, then Q. That can all be accomplished within the span of about 2 seconds, at which point you ignore over half their armor with cleaver and Last Whisper. The health and extra AD on cleaver is still worth more than the attack speed and movement speed of ghostblade.
The reason why I think Kha'zix is weak right now isn't because he struggles with tanks who stack armor.
The reason why he is weak is because he struggles with tanks that (hello cinderhulk) stack health. If he builds armor penetration, he deals less actual damage to their health. If he builds more damage to compensate for the cinderhulk health stack, he lacks durability and is easier to itemize against.
His damage is massively situational, and completely exploitable from a defensive perspective. Good luck finding anyone isolated in a teamfight when isolation is 500 range.
Also, by 53% winrate, do you mean his consistent 45% winrate across all elos for the past few months? Or are you talking about his 45% winrate in gold through diamond over the past few months? Or maybe you cherry picked his winrate from the volatile challenger graphics. I, too can do that. He had a 26% winrate in challenger on April 6th. He's obviously the worst champion in the game because of that number.
The reason Kha'zix can be viable sometimes is because of team comps. When he isn't facing the tanky team comps, that's a great time to pick him. The team comp picks are the reason his higher elo winrates are actually slightly higher than low elo. They pick him when they know it's safe to do so.
W is mostly useless. You certainly don't want to lead with it and announce to the world where you are and your intent to attack.
Cinderwhatnow? You mean the new bami->Sunfire cape? Sure it's popular on tanks as funfire always was, but it's not much of a threat to someone like kha that doesn't get locked down in extended melee, and if Leona catches you with a team, you're dead either way. Health stacking is not especially potent of a threat right now, nor has it ever been. They added bloodmail last December, and it made no real impact. I expect adding warmogs to ARAM won't much impact THAT map either. Every champion in the game builds armor pen, Kha is no exception. Are you really QQing because it takes more than 1 rotation to blow up a tank? That's kind of their point. O hi Youmuu active, do you want to kill a tank with me? You do? Great! Suddenly I gain melee dps and Taric drops like a stone.
By 52-53% I mean a rough average over the past many months. I'm not pulling his 61.39% on April 3, or his 30.3% on April 6 (NA only). And again, stats are BS. He was only around 54% back when he was the most broken OP instaban left in Kass' wake, but anyone could tell you he was ruining the game. The one number on lolking you CAN trust is pick popularity, and a solid 8-9% means people are quite willing to use and abuse him, including the ones with zero clue what they are doing. Obviously on free weeks, winrates will dip significantly due to bots. The point is, Kha is strong, but has been nerfed enough that he's no longer broken strong.
What, are you talking about his ARAM winrate of only 41%? Because if you are, nice joke. ARAM is full of the biggest noobs who can't play anything outside the smurf meta (and frankly are bad at that too, just crutching on op rolls), and probably can't even spell defense. From my own experience, Kha is still a beast on ARAM if you have any idea what you are doing, and will be your team's greatest weapon if you can engage properly alongside him. Add in the fact that the map has that permalixir of AD spellvamp where one lasts all game, and any player worth half his salt should be able to dominate on the bug.
Team comps have nothing to do with it. Isolation is not a mechanic for teamfights, tho it can be used to delete anyone trying to flee from one or healthpack up. Isolation means your bushwhacks, ganks, and interceptions will chunk the enemy health down to nothing before they even realize they're being attacked, and by that point it's too late to really react. The fight is yours, the advantage too strong. Tank or squish, kha doesn't care. Often squish are the bigger threat to him if they have a strong reactive stun with 100-0 burst potential, hence why I favor resistances in my build.
You seem not to get it. I play Kha. Kha is strong. I tend to play him less, because he is so strong. I feel cheap winning because of him. I have a 70% Kha winrate in my own games. No he absolutely does not need buffs.
grLKQ9ma0o1 votesAny time you want to stop trolling me, that would be cool.
Kha'zix is viable, but only because of his cheese. His inconsistencies and issues with the current tank meta make him a problem pick with most any team comps because he's a champ that needs time (and mainly gold/items) to scale, but by the time he does, both teams group up and his damage is hard to get off.
Congratulations on your 70% winrate. I'm guessing you don't have Sejuani, Amumu, Gragas, and other massive teamfight tanks on the opposing side every game.
Kholdstare131 votesAny time you want to stop trolling me, that would be cool.
Kha'zix is viable, but only because of his cheese. His inconsistencies and issues with the current tank meta make him a problem pick with most any team comps because he's a champ that needs time (and mainly gold/items) to scale, but by the time he does, both teams group up and his damage is hard to get off.
Congratulations on your 70% winrate. I'm guessing you don't have Sejuani, Amumu, Gragas, and other massive teamfight tanks on the opposing side every game.
Nope, totally not any tanks. Just Rammus, Ali, Galio, Maokai, Poppy, Singed, Taric, Leona...
Look, I get that you miss your free wins, but we CANNOT un-gut the bug. He's not inconsistent, he's just very one-dimensional. He's a greedy assassin. He will have all of the kills, that's a guarantee. The question is whether or not those kills will matter. If you can go in hard on his team, take out 3 of them while he eats 1, then turn and squish him as he just barely eats a 2nd, that's a win for you.
All he can do is kill you, tho he is very good at it. If you play around that fact, yes he can be countered. In a teamfight, death is his only CC, meaning his target gets to fully contribute to the fight up until the point when they die. Stick to team movement, do not go out alone. Force big engagements, and you can win overall despite Kha getting a kill or 2. Tanks are not the issue, and he is anything BUT weak. Any problems he faces are inherent to all assassins, and their nature. An assassin's job is kills, nothing more. Kha does that excellently. He is balanced between being exceedingly good at that, while having nothing else to contribute.
grLKQ9ma0o1 votesBut the problem is that he ISN'T good at killing. Not compared to many other meta champions with the same goal. If his job is to be an assassin, compare him to other assassins. Zed does the job of an assassin 20 times better than Kha'zix. He has better scaling, and damage that isn't completely situational. He has weaknesses, but not glaring ones in the same manner as Kha'zix. Even Talon is a better assassin because all it takes to kill the squishy is one rotation of his abilities in the right order within the right window.
The reason Kha'zix is inconsistent as an assassin is because the windows for him to actually be able to assassinate are incredibly small compared to quite literally every other assassin. The way his abilities work don't open up those windows, similar to Zed/Talon (like Talon's amplified damage after his blink). His abilities are much more like a sustained damage dealer-caster, more in the style of a champion like Yasuo. The problem is that his current kit completely handicaps him to be able to work with either a sustained damage or assassin style kit.
I don't think buffing Kha'zix is what needs to be done. I think his kit needs a bit of a rework. The problem is that he only has one real damaging ability. Sure, his W does damage, but when it comes to actually fighting someone, it really doesn't deal much damage.
As much as I love it, I also think his reset needs to go. It's part of why his kit is toxic and ridiculously snowball-y. Reapportion some of the power elsewhere in his kit and give his evolved E something else to compensate.
Kholdstare131 votesBut the problem is that he ISN'T good at killing. Not compared to many other meta champions with the same goal. If his job is to be an assassin, compare him to other assassins. Zed does the job of an assassin 20 times better than Kha'zix. He has better scaling, and damage that isn't completely situational. He has weaknesses, but not glaring ones in the same manner as Kha'zix. Even Talon is a better assassin because all it takes to kill the squishy is one rotation of his abilities in the right order within the right window.
The reason Kha'zix is inconsistent as an assassin is because the windows for him to actually be able to assassinate are incredibly small compared to quite literally every other assassin. The way his abilities work don't open up those windows, similar to Zed/Talon (like Talon's amplified damage after his blink). His abilities are much more like a sustained damage dealer-caster, more in the style of a champion like Yasuo. The problem is that his current kit completely handicaps him to be able to work with either a sustained damage or assassin style kit.
I don't think buffing Kha'zix is what needs to be done. I think his kit needs a bit of a rework. The problem is that he only has one real damaging ability. Sure, his W does damage, but when it comes to actually fighting someone, it really doesn't deal much damage.
As much as I love it, I also think his reset needs to go. It's part of why his kit is toxic and ridiculously snowball-y. Reapportion some of the power elsewhere in his kit and give his evolved E something else to compensate.
I can agree that a fuller rework is needed if he is ever to be even touched again, but I don't understand why you call him weak. Isolation may be situational, but it's a common enough situation that you can exploit. Your mere existence puts massive pressure on the enemy to stay grouped, and not even try ganking, much less anything riskier, for fear you would intercept them and auto-win the 1 on 1. Even in a teamfight, they aren't going to be within 500 for all of it. If you can focus on who is isolated instead of just the default "squishiest", your damage remains insane. If one of them tries to lead a dive, you can make sure they don't have a health bar to do it with. If one of them tries to stay back alone and cast, sneak to the back and punish them. If one gets low and breaks off for health, chase them down. You act as if isolation weren't a thing at all. If it weren't, I agree he would be somewhat lackluster. The fact remains that it is a mechanic, and an insanely scaled one at that. It's your job to manage this and unseen threat appropriately. When you combine the raw power when you DO use this mechanic with the overall pressure against the enemy to NOT allow you to, you get a strong champion. It's the same reason Nunu's ult is so strong. It's not the damage itself, it's the threat of damage that forces the enemy to position and play around it that makes it into a form of area denial. Kha'Zix acts as roaming denial.
grLKQ9ma0o1 votesHe's weak because he has to snowball early on, but his scalings and reliance on items makes this just about impossible. He's completely handicapped from level 1-6 with not a lot of ganking power (no hard cc like Rengar, no guarantee of damage in isolation when ganking a lane), and even when he hits level 6, he just doesn't have the massive damage spike or utility spike that many other champions have. For example, Rengar's kit revolves around his empowered abilities that he stacks. When Rengar hits 6, he has the ability to immediately gain 5 stacks to use against an opponent. He can make his damage happen. Kha'zix has to look for windows that often don't exist for more than a few seconds, if that.
If the enemy champion is in isolation, sure, they're gonna get beat to hell by my isolation damage, to be sure. The problem with this is that with many champions, he can't actually kill them within a reasonable time period in isolation. With a 3 second Q cooldown, and even on an adc, the necessity of hitting Q on them at least twice gives them a lot of time to make an escape, or for them to find their teammates. No self-respecting squishy champion is going to be so far out of position in a game with Kha'zix as to be that far away from their team. Sure, it forces them to stay together, but if they are that close, you have no openings.
Kha'zix's fundamental problem is his reset. He is simply a "KILL MOAR" champion. What I mean by that is that his job as a champion is simply to kill enemies that would otherwise already basically be dead, just do it a bit faster. If Kha'zix wasn't in the game, they would still likely be dead, it's just that he sweeps them quicker than anyone else can.
His weakness is honestly simply that he requires an early lead, but his kit's strength is in its scaling. You can't get an early lead very easily with lackluster early game damage, and even if he does get ahead, the kills still aren't easy to come by if you don't cheese them. I would like to see his kit reworked into something that actually is healthy. Scrap the reset, reapportion damage, change the evolutions.
Kholdstare131 votesHe's weak because he has to snowball early on, but his scalings and reliance on items makes this just about impossible. He's completely handicapped from level 1-6 with not a lot of ganking power (no hard cc like Rengar, no guarantee of damage in isolation when ganking a lane), and even when he hits level 6, he just doesn't have the massive damage spike or utility spike that many other champions have. For example, Rengar's kit revolves around his empowered abilities that he stacks. When Rengar hits 6, he has the ability to immediately gain 5 stacks to use against an opponent. He can make his damage happen. Kha'zix has to look for windows that often don't exist for more than a few seconds, if that.
If the enemy champion is in isolation, sure, they're gonna get beat to hell by my isolation damage, to be sure. The problem with this is that with many champions, he can't actually kill them within a reasonable time period in isolation. With a 3 second Q cooldown, and even on an adc, the necessity of hitting Q on them at least twice gives them a lot of time to make an escape, or for them to find their teammates. No self-respecting squishy champion is going to be so far out of position in a game with Kha'zix as to be that far away from their team. Sure, it forces them to stay together, but if they are that close, you have no openings.
Kha'zix's fundamental problem is his reset. He is simply a "KILL MOAR" champion. What I mean by that is that his job as a champion is simply to kill enemies that would otherwise already basically be dead, just do it a bit faster. If Kha'zix wasn't in the game, they would still likely be dead, it's just that he sweeps them quicker than anyone else can.
His weakness is honestly simply that he requires an early lead, but his kit's strength is in its scaling. You can't get an early lead very easily with lackluster early game damage, and even if he does get ahead, the kills still aren't easy to come by if you don't cheese them. I would like to see his kit reworked into something that actually is healthy. Scrap the reset, reapportion damage, change the evolutions.
Weak early I can agree with, but snowball has nothing to do with it. You can easily wait till 6 before you start getting actual kills, finish up , and really start to wreck. At 11 with your second evolution, you can really grab those chain multikills. 2 second Q cooldown within the first few minutes with his CDR core bought, not 3 like you say.
No you won't be carrying early, but 10 minutes in you are a guaranteed nightmare, and you DO delete squishies. Your ganks are basically free kills, and in any remotely competent team, the sheer force of map control you give via your damage threat is your biggest asset.
No he doesn't need an early lead. As I said, he can wait to ramp up. His resets do give him late dominance, but they can also be a pure positioning tool. Stuck on ARAM with Lux blasting from the back? Wait for a target to soften up, jump and finish them, then chain deeper back onto the Lux and delete her.
His jump is big. It's one of the reasons he is so strong. It's on a pretty low cooldown, and can clear most walls. That kind of mobility, and his ability to surprise engage or escape is why he is strong.
UNSC1 votesI feel kha'zix is still a great champion, but needs some help in the early game. I usually build him blue smite /w warrior, into a ravenous hydra, then last whisper, and (usually) tank from there to survive diving but also doing damage. then i pick up a bt later on (usually item 4+) to iron in my damage.
Gordy1 votesi agree on him being a little low as how squishy he is, i find i get countered alot and i cant find a solution to that as well as having great damage. also if you have no runes or masteries he isn't very good at jungling either as you will need to go back to base after each camp at the start of the match thanks to how squishy he is
Snow Taradien1 votesTake him jungle/top, get warrior enchant, last whisper and youmu, essence reaver and an bloodthirster. Fill with Trinity or Hydra.
qetzel1 votesGrab Trailblazers to deal with those pesky minions or chilling smite to slow?
Snow Taradien1 votesNeither. Skirmisher for that 3 second window of true damage burst. As an assassin he really needs it and that's who the skirmisher was made for.
grLKQ9ma0o1 votesYou don't get Skirmisher's for the true damage burst. The true damage is like... 1/4 of what ignite is. The reason you get skirmisher's is so they deal less damage to you and you instantly win those trades.
SantanaTheSlick 1 voteseveryone complained about him in the jungle and now everyone wants him back?
Teridax681 votesAD caster itemization is in a bit of a weird spot, but as mentioned below, armor penetration is your best friend. gives you a massive power spike, so I recommend you rush it: if you're jungling, upgrade it into 
, and if you're laning, upgrade it into (before the item gets reworked, anyway). Aside from that, 
/ adds a lot of burst and gives you additional sustain, will help against magic damage and works as a damage amplifier.
Kha himself isn't exactly in the best spot, but he's getting buffs next patch. I recommend going full damage on him, as he's not meant to be built tanky, and if you have trouble keeping yourself alive, rush a Hydra for the additional sustain (or Maw of Malmortius if you're dying to magic damage).
Snow Taradien1 votesAs a jungle main, I can say that 
is better on Kha, as it really helps with his burst damage, you want assassins in the meta at all its the necessity item.
grLKQ9ma0o1 votesYou're both wrong. Always get
That way, you can jump in on a wave, proc Hydra/Tiamat and smite and then you have instant isolation if it's just them and creeps. Also, the sustain is completely necessary on him.
4nth0l0gy1 votesThe thing is, I don't think he's that bad. The meta just doesn't give him a whole bunch of squishes to annihilate.
Shiny lnfernape1 votesi do agree right now with all these new patches and masteries kha is significantly weaker then a majority of champs simply because of his very high risk factor.Especially since the rift is now ruled by tanks and there very cheap build options.
hOrnn1 voteskhazix not being fotm and being weak are separate things.
the way this community works, wow u understood something, lets all spam it until we understand how to counter it as a whole.
ChickenWrap1 votes[{quoted}](name=Diamond Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tGNfkcGn,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-03-07T08:07:49.327+0000)
khazix not being fotm and being weak are separate things.
the way this community works, wow u understood something, lets all spam it until we understand how to counter it as a whole.
First of all: This thread was made almost a year ago.
Secondly, it's a joke thread. Many people got together and made G&B threads pretending like we were still in Season 2 and complaining about balance from that perspective.