Is Shaco's Ultimate a minion or a champion? Because this is annoying.

ChickenWrap·Jun 13, 2016·150 votes·15,443 views

Darius heals off of it, it can be ignited, it has large circles for Rek'Sai's passive, but Volibear's E fears it as though it's a minion. Why?

169 Comments

AhristocatsJun 13, 201666 votes

don't forget that darius can ulti it but doesn't get a reset by killing it.

ChickenWrapJun 13, 201635 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V42MLA7l,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-06-13T07:05:03.073+0000)

don't forget that darius doesn't get a reset by killing it.

RIOT. WHAT IS HAPPENING?

TheRealBazJun 13, 201633 votes

{quoted}

RIOT. WHAT IS HAPPENING?

thats a good thing, if someone ults a clone they should be punished

My Waifu VanillaJun 13, 201618 votes

It's the fact that it is inconsistent within the SAME champion kit. Darius heals with Q off of it, therefor it is a champion. However, Darius killing A CHAMPION with his ult gets a reset, but killing the clone does not.

Meep ManJun 13, 201654 votes

Out dated mechanics and coding

ChickenWrapJun 13, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V42MLA7l,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-06-13T06:49:35.121+0000)

Out dated mechanics and coding

Think they'll ever fix that?

Meep ManJun 13, 201621 votes

If we make a big enough deal about it and maybe they look Shaco's way for the first time in a year or so, maybe.

ZarvanisJun 13, 20167 votes

A week or two ago someone on the boards suggested Shaco Shaco should see an indicator on his enemies showing where he can hit them for backstab damage, and someone from Riot (Meddler, I believe) agreed to implement it in 6.12.

Hexelement Jun 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Ooo, good call on using the MF style floating combat text to show both that Backstab's triggered and how much extra damage it contributed. We'll add that in for the next patch (6.12). I'd imagine that should both help experienced players looking to optimize Backstab usage and newer players who don't yet understand what Backstab works with (a lot of new Shaco players fail to optimize Backstab with the clone or E).

Will look at the prospect of an indicator circle as well, less sure about that one though, at least in the short term, given both visual noise it adds and need for some visual effects artist time to make that look good enough.

This is what Meddler said about it, and here is a link to the original post

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cdLKAM1L-clarity-passive-shaco?comment=000f

iainB85Jun 13, 201617 votes

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/34330403.jpg

RiotMeddlerJun 14, 201642 votes

Clones are deliberately treated as both champions and minions. For purposes of targeting they're champions (the thing they're pretending to be). For purposes of action resolution they're both champions and minions. That means they should be affected by things that affect champions and minions (e.g. Annie stun), only affect minions (e.g. the fear on Voli E) or only affect champions (e.g. the heal from Illaoi's tentacle hits).

There are some special cases (e.g. clones don't, and shouldn't, give Mejai's stacks), and certainly some bugs, with clones. Overall the minion and champion model for them though's the best fit we feel for what they're intended to be (things pretending to be champions).

patmax17Jun 14, 20165 votes

Do they take increased damage e.g. from sunfire or Taliyah's Q?

Slamurai JackJun 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Clones are deliberately treated as both champions and minions. For purposes of targeting they're champions (the thing they're pretending to be). For purposes of action resolution they're both champions and minions. That means they should be affected by things that affect champions and minions (e.g. Annie stun), only affect minions (e.g. the fear on Voli E) or only affect champions (e.g. the heal from Illaoi's tentacle hits).

There are some special cases (e.g. clones don't, and shouldn't, give Mejai's stacks), and certainly some bugs, with clones. Overall the minion and champion model for them though's the best fit we feel for what they're intended to be (things pretending to be champions).

Can you smite clones?

Curling VeigarJun 14, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Clones are deliberately treated as both champions and minions. For purposes of targeting they're champions (the thing they're pretending to be). For purposes of action resolution they're both champions and minions. That means they should be affected by things that affect champions and minions (e.g. Annie stun), only affect minions (e.g. the fear on Voli E) or only affect champions (e.g. the heal from Illaoi's tentacle hits).

There are some special cases (e.g. clones don't, and shouldn't, give Mejai's stacks), and certainly some bugs, with clones. Overall the minion and champion model for them though's the best fit we feel for what they're intended to be (things pretending to be champions).

Is veigar suppose to get Passive stacks off of clones?

I remember playing versus a wukong and his clone gave me AP every time I hit it

Photos of GhostsJun 14, 20164 votes

But the fear on Voli's E allows to tell which one is the real one..

Game girl 1Jun 14, 20163 votes

How come you cant kill ward with it?

4th Chiming LambJun 14, 20168 votes

So, like I said earlier, they're Chaminions?

Nami in BushJun 13, 201625 votes

http://i.imgur.com/l7bslIv.jpg

Once had death recap tell me I took 854 magic damage from Night Hunter (Vayne's passive)

HeadHonchkrowJun 13, 20164 votes

hilarious, but totally unrelated.

NilokJun 13, 20163 votes

No, it's showing that League still has a ton of spaghetti code that needs to be cleaned up.

HeadHonchkrowJun 13, 20161 votes

Well, not totally unrelated, i guess. But it has nothing to do with the main point of the OP, which is inconsistencies with the Shaco ult clone.

macromiteJun 13, 20162 votes

it provides an answer. though it is an obvious one.

Battlecast SonaJun 13, 20166 votes

death recap once told me I took true damage from summoner spell: flash

i've also taken true damage from nothing...

death recap itself is so full of bugs that any bugs related to it are almost not funny due to how reliably it shows incorrect information

KingnewgameplusJun 13, 20165 votes

Naw man death recap totally works. Graves did 3000 damage to me when I had 2700 max hp. Totally fine. I did 3 true damage to myself as lux. Yup, seems normal. Miss fortune killed my by game_announcement_Missfortune. Nothing out of the ordinary. Apperently volibear has corki's old passive, since his auto's did mixed damage. A odd choice but I can see it.

CrossetteJun 13, 20163 votes

MF called on the power of the announcers to fucking annihilate you. :^)

5000000000000000Jun 13, 20162 votes

A lot of on hit effects do magic damage. You can take more than your max HP as damage if you were healed or shielded.

The rest is definitely death recap going crazy though

Comrade NapoleonJun 13, 201612 votes

I think the goal with the clone is never to be able to know that it is the clone unless you actually use (in Shacos perspective waste) an ability on it.

Reksai passive, no because its a passive Voli E karmas abilities illaoi E, yes because you "wasted" it Darius ult, works but not resets because if it did then Darius wouldn't have "wasted" it in that case

now there are some ignored bugs like the heal of Darius Q, well thats because spaghetti and the fact that riot doesn't care about this champ at the moment.

Anu3isIIJun 13, 201617 votes

The thing the OP wanted to underline is that Volibear's E fears the clone (treating it as a minion, instead of a champion), making it reveal who is the real Shaco. That is an advantage, not a waste.

Comrade NapoleonJun 14, 20162 votes

But the Voli DID cast his E, lost mana and CD so he had to use resources to find out the real Shaco, which is my point.

Anu3isIIJun 14, 20161 votes

By that logic, Shaco DID cast his R, lost more mana and a lot more CD so he had to force a Volibear use his E, which is a totally bad trade.

I don't know if you understand this part, but Volibear's E is a basic ability while Shaco's clone is his Ultimate ability. Also, if you start to think about it, a good Volibear will always use his E when both Shaco and his clone attack him, so nope, there is no waste in casting an AoE slow with damage, that also neutralizes the clone for damn 3 seconds.

I may have misunderstood your concept about waste, but waste actual meaning is: to consume, spend, or employ uselessly or without adequate return; use to no avail or profit; squander. The thing you mentioned is not a WASTE, is a trade-off. A waste would be to play Darius and R the enemy Clone, killing it but actually have no reset. That is when Shaco tricked you perfectly, making you pay a big price that can cost them a whole teamfight. But if you think a Volibear E is such a powerful ability that it is a "waste" to use it and shut down two main core elements of Shaco's Ultimate ( the "find the Shaco" game and the raw DPS the clone provides) then I don't know what to say anymore...

Comrade NapoleonJun 15, 20161 votes

Very reasonable argument, i agree.

Anu3isIIJun 15, 20162 votes

Hey, now when I read again the wall of text I wrote, I want to say I'm sorry for my aggressive way of writing. I played this match-up from both sides, and it feels totally unfair for each one of the champions.

As Shaco, you feel as you are cheated by your own toys, participating at a really bad joke. As an Assassin, your role is to kill the enemy carries and get away with it or kill the rest of them. If you ever want to get to a carry as Shaco, you have to use your Q, one of your escapes , to reach them. Your back-up plan will always be to use your Ultimate to perfectly dodge one or more powerful abilities, and try to trick all the enemies with the clone. You can also use your boxes, but, from a certain point of the game, they begin to die before they get invisible. If a Volibear is standing between you and his carries (he is the tank, he must protect them), then your only options are to run or go YOLO for maximum one kill, because after you use your Ultimate, Volibear will use his E and all his team will focus you down.

From my perspective, I see Volibear as a big bear with lots of raw power that can destroy almost anyone he faces in a face-to-face fight (or better said vs melee champions), and, even if I don't know who is the real Shaco, I can use my Ultimate to deal AoE damage, my E to deal AoE damage , and my W deals so much damage that I can burst Shaco easily (and much more easier the clone, because it takes more damage than Shaco). And again, because the clone takes more damage than the real one, and Volibear is more of an AoE DPS bruiser with Sunfire/Cinderhulk as core items, I can easily check who is who, or even kill them both at the same time xD.

So ... yeah, it feels like unnecessary power added randomly just because of an weird interaction.

The DeckownerJun 13, 201612 votes

http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/3711873.jpg

ZarkkastJun 13, 20167 votes

Shaco main here.

Shaco has so many bugs that it's quite annoying. I never knew about this one.

My only hope is that Riot will finally look at him at the end of the year assassin update.

ChickenWrapJun 13, 20164 votes

Another Shaco main here. Good luck, Riot hates us.

JambajewzJun 13, 20165 votes

Not as much as riot hates Aatrox. Your champion may be buggy, but at least he's capable of functioning in a game.

4th Chiming LambJun 14, 20161 votes

What's so wrong with Aatrox? Last I checked, he was a good champion who did damage and healed from dealing damage, exactly what he's supposed to do. What's all the hate around him? Most Aatrox-es I get matched with end up getting, at the very least, a 1v3 Triple Kill. I have a Gold friend who systematically gets a Penta with Aatrox every other game.

JambajewzJun 14, 20162 votes

He effectively can't be played higher than mid gold, and even to get there with him you have to be exceptionally good. He has to build damage or he won't be a threat, he has to build tank or he can't survive long enough to heal from his autos. He needs the now guinsoos effect to be able to heal quickly enough to sustain through a fight which requires him to get 6 auto attacks off in a fight before he dies while he has an item slot dedicated to guinsoos giving him no bonus survivability until he gets it stacked up. There are no attack speed/defensive items except for wit's end which isn't a good item on him, while there are other items that provide attack damage/defense of some sort like maw or sterak's or any other ad/health item. His early game is pretty weak, he has ok damage but he's pretty paper thin and his W doesn't heal for much at early ranks, so anyone that can trade heavily early will usually be able to get their cooldowns up again before he heals up to a safe amount. His passive revives him, but it's a 4 minute cd early, so if you're laning with him and get ganked once you basically have to farm under tower until it's up again. His main fantasy is this giant late game sword swinging unkillable blood demon, and it's great, but it's almost impossible to get to that point with him because his early game is so weak. At the start of season 6 when devourer guinsoos was a thing he had the potential to be crazy strong, but he needed to basically farm til 20 minutes and get some really opportunistic ganks to get rolling. I had a lot of fun with him for the month or so that he was really strong at the beginning of the season, 21 minute solo barons were a thing of beauty. They talk about feast or famine champs, and how they're not healthy, Aatrox is the single most feast or famine champion in the game, except he starves way more often than he feasts. You can jungle with him really easily, he has great sustain against the camps, but if anyone invades you your only options are either run away or lose. The fact that his good healing only comes when he's below 50% health is ok, but anyone with an execute will just bypass your ability to use it by executing you before you can heal. There is no single core item on him that gives him a formidable power spike like there are on all the other champions, it is only a combination of items so that you can get a smattering of all of the stats that you need that give him any kind of power spike. You need attack speed, in addition to your bloodwell and ultimate, in order to swing fast enough to be effective, you need defensive stats so you don't get instantly bursted down when you engage, you need bonus damage, either from on hit or from extra ad, in order to be a threat to carries in teamfights because you basically can't use blood price in a teamfight without guaranteeing your own death. You can use it in trades in lane pretty effectively if you've got a good matchup, but after that it's basically just a way to farm up your bloodwell. High damage, high lifesteal builds can work, but if you catch a single cc you're dead. He hasn't been really strong in like 3 years, riot keeps it that way intentionally because they don't like the idea of really high self healing, or healing in general unless it's soraka doing it. They want tanks to tank by being tanky, but then they give tanks incredibly high base damages on all their moves so they can still be a threat. Aatrox doesn't get this, because he's designed to be an auto attack based champion, so you can't just build straight tank or you're completely useless. This makes him build damage, which is all well and good, but it forces you to choose a weakness early, and hope that your farm is good enough to last until you've shored up all of your weaknesses. He basically needs like 3 finished items before he feels like he's in a safe enough place stats wise to fight. Once he gets there it's great, and he's not bad as a sleeper pick since he doesn't see much play so people don't really know just how soft he is early, but you basically have to trick people into thinking you're not weak until you get there or they'll run over top of you without you being able to do much about it. And if they do put you behind early it's pretty much impossible to catch up, even at 6 items, because other champions scale harder into the late game and you can be kited pretty easily.

4th Chiming LambJun 15, 20162 votes

...Thanks! I expected a "cause he's shit", but this actually helped me understand why people don't like him. Thanks, mate.

JambajewzJun 15, 20162 votes

You're welcome, I know that was really long, but I've thought about it a lot. I love him, he's one of my favorite champions, the whole blood demon thing is pretty wonderful, and it frustrates me that a champion I love is effectively unable to be in a healthy state. His Mecha skin is friggin sweet too, he turns into a jet fighter when he backs, badass.

ShinirupJun 14, 20166 votes

But he is Shaco. Nobody understands even who he is. Trolling with coding seems to support his character lol

xxxDogmanxxxJun 13, 20165 votes

It's a pet. No literally, it's coded as a pet.

Discount MilkJun 13, 201631 votes

You can't Darius ult Tibbers.

DarkRitualJun 13, 20162 votes

Relevant point: Tibbers isn't a clone of a champion. Leblanc, Shaco, and Wukong all have literal clones, with Shaco being unique in having distinct control of his. Yorick and Mordekaiser are also notable with their ults making clones/pets of champions, although not always identical to their originals (morde empowers his, plus there were unusual circumstanced like the Jhin 4th shot). There's lot of variations on the clone/pet/minion parts of champ kits, but there does lack some consistancy with certain aspects.