Why do the last three players get to ban in Drafts if it's the top two that get counter-picked?

SzGamer227·Nov 28, 2016·90 votes·2,520 views

The way I see it, being at the bottom of the Draft has all of the advantages when it comes to having a desirable lane opponent, since they get to ban their worst match-up and also have the best chance of seeing the champion they're laning against and pick their own to counter them accordingly.

Anyone else think this is rather off?

It would be fair to have the bans given to the top three players on the team in the Draft to make up for the fact that they will likely be counter-picked, so that you aren't set at a disadvantage just because of your placement in the Draft. Either that or all five players on the team could be given the chance to ban since that is supposedly on the table.

37 Comments

Mysticman89Nov 28, 201620 votes

Top 2 theoretically have the opportunity to pick the S tier champs ("OPs" or otherwise) and either use them themselves or trade to the appropriate teammate, and bans should in theory be used to ban OPs no one on the team plays or has the opportunity to pick, as well as counter to the overall team comp. As a result, all 5 members have important power over the overall pick/ban strategy in theory.

Unfortunately, particularly in solo queue (slightly better at higher elos but even then), it does end up being just greeding for their own picks and counter picking for their lane rather than the overall comp, so it doesn't necessarily work out.

They are considering bumping things up to 5 bans per team, as well as some alternative pick/ban approaches (possibly with different rules for pro play and for regular play), but I haven't heard anything about that for a while.

MorticianjohnNov 29, 20162 votes

because trades are pretty rare in most games because a lot of bronze - silver players have less than half of the champions having first pick rarely means you get an S tier champion. Additionally the champion hardly matters in this elo because it's the player that matters. Getting a first pick Olaf or whatever at worlds was a good thing, however, amumu probably has a better win rate in bronze. Still there are like 10 jg champions that are just as good in bronze games.

Bans in general are pretty pointless when the game is mostly balanced for bronze and silver. the only thing you do with bans is to take out champs that are broken like right after the rework malzahar or when Sona got over buffed. Outside of broken champs you have to get lucky to actually ban a champion that people want to play.

Mysticman89Nov 29, 20163 votes

Pretty sure they aim to balance around a plat-ish elo rather than bronze-silver. They keep an eye on how strong things are low elo/new player land as well as how strong things are in pro play, but aimming for balance in plat-ish elo tends to be safest. People more or less know how to play by then and mechanics aren't going to improve much by that stage, so theres not a situation of "Ok this is fine in bronze, but once people really learn the champ it gets oppressive, and then in high elo it's absolutely not ok" and instead "Maybe a bit weak in bronze, but once people get a good number of games on it it's fairly balanced, and it's a bit strong in high elo but we can live with that".

Bronze-silver is a big clown fiesta where pick-ban isn't really that important, since everything is basically a skill match up (even with counter picks, people are so far from any champions potential in that elo that it's not uncommon for 'countered' champs to win if the player know what they're doing).

MorticianjohnNov 29, 20161 votes

I just mean to say that when the game is balanced, meaning there isn't a totally broken champions (for example when sona reached 60% winrate right after they buffed her). If none of the champions are totally broken then banning champions is basically a waste of time in bronze-silver elo.

Sraeg2013Nov 29, 20162 votes

That's not even about individual's champion pool. It's about the willingness to do so.

For example I could count the number of non-premade trades I saw in the last Season from Silver ~3 to Platinum 1 on the fingers of one hand.

It's pointless to even consider asking for trades.

XonraNov 29, 20162 votes

I've had last pick support MULTIPLE times, and the mid or top refuse to trade (not roles, but as in I pick their champ for them). They'd rather get counter picked essentially, than let me help.

Ranked is unfortunately a very selfish environment, and sadly Riot seems to feel otherwise as they go on about "it is supposed to be a team game". It's a 5v5 game, but most people play it like it is them and 4 bots lol

Sraeg2013Nov 29, 20161 votes

Yup, and I had multiple games where I ended up being mid/top as first pick and had to gamble picking champions hoping they in turn don't pick, for example, Zed who pretty much hard-counters my main, but gets crushed by my next most played champion.

Of course in 99% of cases people don't even respond when I ask for a trade. You have neither of those 2 champions I want to play? Fine, understandable. But for Pete's sake respond, people.

Frankly I do consider this "team" game a game with myself and four bots, because most people do behave like that.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 29, 20161 votes

For me it is the other way round. I usually q as mid/top and literally beg my teammates to let me pick for them jungle supp or adc and i usually get no answer at all. Then i proceed to pick whatever i feel like i can deal with anything and will just get counterpicked, outfarmed and jungle pressure on top of it >.>

Sraeg2013Nov 29, 20162 votes

But in practice people don't communicate at all in the lobby, aren't willing to trade champions or don't want/aren't able to play those S tier champions.

ArnoldSchwarzensNov 28, 201610 votes

Either that or all five players on the team could be given the chance to ban since that is supposedly on the table.

They already officially announced that this is going to happen very soon.

ArnoldSchwarzensNov 28, 201629 votes

Then again, they also officially announced that SoloQ would be coming back in early season 6 LUL.

EschetonNov 29, 20167 votes

Because they force the team comp.

If First and Second pick are mid and top and they both hover AD. Jungle needs to go ap most likely. Or support Zyra. Or Corki. Either way, those forced to adapt should be able to pick what they DON'T want to lane against. Seeing they themselves might have been forced off their mains in favor of teamcomp.

SH AzykanNov 29, 20162 votes

what is this corki you speak of? is it a type of dog?

GayFluffyUnicornNov 29, 20161 votes

Yes but as jungler, supp or even adc it is way easier to play around counterpicks. In mid or top you either get hardcountered by a darius for example or some ranged champ when you play a melee on top of jungle pressure. Bot are already two people who can help each other out and keep them alive and junglers won't collide too often most of the time. Mid and top are also the lanes which snowball the most so i atleast in soloQ don't want to get counterpicked just so our adc can ban the useless zed as always because muh assassins OP.

DengedenNov 29, 20163 votes

Co-or-di-na-tion.

IreliaCarrlesUNov 29, 20161 votes

Co-or-din-a-tion

not

Co-or-di-na-tion.

CowseedNov 29, 20161 votes

: ^ D

Actually syllables are supposed to be started with consonants. So it (don't want to assume genders) is indeed correct.

ValyrianBladeNov 29, 20163 votes

I STILL am waiting for Riot to let us change our own pick order.

Why in pros is it always the same order (clearly they have control over it) but in solo queue it's entirely random?

Why is it possible for one team to be assigned picks Support, Jungle, ADC, Mid, Top and the other team Jungle, ADC, Mid, Top, Support. Literally the first team gets to counter all 4 positions other than support. If we could swap pick orders the latter team would have the support pick earlier, then get to make 2 counter picks of their own.

Also, when I play mid I'd actually prefer to be first pick. I'm playing Ahri pretty much no matter what and I'm prepared to go against any of her counters (although it still sucks to play against a counter). When I play top though, first pick is a nightmare. There are loads of counters to any of my champions and I have strong counter picks to most typical top laners. Getting a late pick top lane is super powerful for me, yet I'm often an early pick when top. Getting a late pick mid lane is almost worthless to me, and I'm typically a late pick when I do get mid...

And before you suggest trading champions: I own like 50-60 champions. I have 10 rune pages and a solid set of runes for them. I've been playing for over 2.5 years now and that's all I've managed to buy. Getting every champion is not at all easy for most players. I also have skins for almost every champion I play so suggesting I buy champions isn't exactly fair either (why spend RP on something I won't use outside of trading and could eventually get for free?).

TheorcheroNov 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I STILL am waiting for Riot to let us change our own pick order.

Why in pros is it always the same order (clearly they have control over it) but in solo queue it's entirely random?

Why is it possible for one team to be assigned picks Support, Jungle, ADC, Mid, Top and the other team Jungle, ADC, Mid, Top, Support. Literally the first team gets to counter all 4 positions other than support. If we could swap pick orders the latter team would have the support pick earlier, then get to make 2 counter picks of their own.

Also, when I play mid I'd actually prefer to be first pick. I'm playing Ahri pretty much no matter what and I'm prepared to go against any of her counters (although it still sucks to play against a counter). When I play top though, first pick is a nightmare. There are loads of counters to any of my champions and I have strong counter picks to most typical top laners. Getting a late pick top lane is super powerful for me, yet I'm often an early pick when top. Getting a late pick mid lane is almost worthless to me, and I'm typically a late pick when I do get mid...

And before you suggest trading champions: I own like 50-60 champions. I have 10 rune pages and a solid set of runes for them. I've been playing for over 2.5 years now and that's all I've managed to buy. Getting every champion is not at all easy for most players. I also have skins for almost every champion I play so suggesting I buy champions isn't exactly fair either (why spend RP on something I won't use outside of trading and could eventually get for free?).

Then what I suggest to you is communicate early on that you would like to avoid being countered. Often times if you do it early enough you can even arrange for a 3 way swap to accommodate any shortcomings in roster. Even if not, you have statistically speaking a 50% chance of owning whatever champion they want to trade, often times more if you invest in popular champions for this purpose.

Or better yet, find a good duo partner that you can trade with and go into flex or solo queue to give you more options.

XonraNov 29, 20163 votes

"Then what I suggest to you is communicate early on that you would like to avoid being countered.

To which people usually just say "no" with no explanation, don't have the champ to trade, or refuse to even respond to you.

Saying "just communicate" is realistically not a good answer, because I see people just flat out refuse to trade with me when I have last pick support and they are like, first pick top because "reasons". They just don't want to for no actual reason, then get countered and complain.

Not much you can do but try, and most times it doesn't work, and the higher you go the worse that gets because if you don't pick the S tier first or second, it will 100% not be there later.

ValyrianBladeNov 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Then what I suggest to you is communicate early on that you would like to avoid being countered. Often times if you do it early enough you can even arrange for a 3 way swap to accommodate any shortcomings in roster. Even if not, you have statistically speaking a 50% chance of owning whatever champion they want to trade, often times more if you invest in popular champions for this purpose.

Or better yet, find a good duo partner that you can trade with and go into flex or solo queue to give you more options.

Yea, unfortunately most of them are the 450s and 1350s that I was using to try to get a bigger roster. I also invested in some "meta" champions in seasons 5/6 for the sole purpose of trading, but they were nerfed only a few patches later so I won't be doing that again...

Maximum MordeNov 28, 20162 votes

Because first two get best shot at high priority picks. Still sucks. Want ten bans pls.

XonraNov 29, 20161 votes

It doesn't matter if you pick an "S tier" champ if you are just going to get counter picked.

There are counter picks to those S tiers that are normally not even pick worthy in some cases, so getting priority in Ranked Queues honestly isn't as important as it is in pro play. Not a relevant argument realistically.

General Esdeath Nov 29, 20162 votes

Because in the old system bottom person was screwed. But Riot doesn't really think ahead often.

IreliaCarrlesUNov 29, 20162 votes

why are u examining draft as if you aren't supposed to be working with your team mates?

The Yetii RiderNov 29, 20162 votes

Everyone in the thread is wrong.

The reason the last three players ban is as an afk check, plain and simple. If last pick didn't ban they would alt tab out or go get a drink or just plain fuck around. Forcing them to ban keeps their attention on the game for most of the pick/ban phase.

Guess what? It worked. Start of game afks went down with the new champ select.

EschetonNov 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tBRJhHqV,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-11-29T21:49:55.282+0000)

Everyone in the thread is wrong.

The reason the last three players ban is as an afk check, plain and simple. If last pick didn't ban they would alt tab out or go get a drink or just plain fuck around. Forcing them to ban keeps their attention on the game for most of the pick/ban phase.

Guess what? It worked. Start of game afks went down with the new champ select.

Give this person an upvote. I think they might be completely correct.

SweedishGunnerNov 30, 20162 votes

This. I absolutely hate first picking in draft mode. You're either locked into something safe, ambiguous (flex pick) or you just have to say f*** it and pick something which might leave you open to a hard counter.

Sure I'd love to first pick Viktor, but that's asking for something like a Fizz, LB or Zed to come out from the enemy.

SzGamer227Nov 30, 20161 votes

This is exactly how I feel. I'm a top lane Darius main, and if I try to pick Darius when I'm near the top of the Draft I can count on their top laner taking Jayce, Kayle, Teemo, or any of the other ranged top laners that can kite me to oblivion.

Of course being at the top of the list means I don't have to worry about their team picking Darius first, but unless the champ you prefer is pick-or-ban powerful, it doesn't really amount to much.

DunkinNoobsNov 30, 20162 votes

It's so people later on in pick order don't afk in champion select.

agbudarNov 29, 20161 votes

or yknow 5 bans per team

ZT XperimentorNov 29, 20161 votes

Originally the first pick on both teams got the choice on all 3 bans; this the current system is more balanced. Besides riot said they 'would' add 4 more so each person gets a ban.

NiceTryViNov 29, 20161 votes

Because the top 2 can pick a champion that may be a flex pick, or they can force a comp. If the midlaner is one of the top 2, they can pick Ezreal, which means that if the ADC wanted Ezreal, he cant now. That's just 1 example, but it is a possibility. Also, if the first 2 pick champs that have a lot of engage or a lot of disengage, you wouldn't pick champions that do the opposite. For example, if someone picks Amumu or Orianna, the support might pick Alistar when they were intending to go Janna., cause you dont take disengage into a hard engage comp like that.

dunkeroniNov 29, 20161 votes

Because otherwise Last pick not only gets no bans, but he also gets his champion stolen by the enemy team.

CowseedNov 29, 20161 votes

Maybe it's because bans weren't intended for just laning and 'OP' picks but for actual hard counters to the team comp. :/

TwitchInMyPantsNov 30, 20161 votes

Its because in solo queue getting pick authority is an advantage. Though really we should have 5 bans in the game anyway, idk why that didn't ship with pre-season when it was on the PBE for it.......

SanKakUNov 30, 20161 votes

I believe the reasoning is supposed to be that you pick OP champs for the first two picks. It matters little to not at all if you counter pick something that is OP.