Balance issue: Tank Assassins and Balancing offense and defense.

DragonShea··3 votes·461 views

Hey all. I just wanted to give my two cents on the matter of Tank assassins and the issues of the tank meta as well as doing some theorycrafting on the matter. Personally I am not happy with the fact that some champions are OP because of the strength of their kits and the power of defensive items, such as Ekko (formally?) Fizz , and so on. As much as I like Champs with good mobility, damage and defense, having those stats up to eleven is too much, many champions have HP and Armor that is slightly above that of some tanks and they sometimes need it as tanks do build defensively and they do need the extra stats as they can't afford to take a defensive item unless it absolutely necessary.

So here is my idea on how to deal with the issue. increase the base defensive stats of tanks and give them a small bonus to their defensive stats based on their base stat. So as an example, Taking my man Rammus with a base armor of 104,5 at Lv18 and Fizz with 80.2 at the same Lv. So let's say they both have 3 items and boots(excluding masteries and runes):

Rammus: item 3068, item 3065, item 3075 item 3111 = 3026 HP, 254,5 armor, 133,4 MR.

Fizz: item 3068 item 3025 item 3065 item 3111 = 3020 HP, 195,2 armor, 133,4 MR.

So you can see that those maths Fizz will by far outperform Rammus as he is far more damage than Rammus ,even if Rammus beats Fizz out by Items and armor by 31%,

he will still lose due to Fizz damage in his kit. And the likes of Amumu and Shen don't have any better as they have 2041 HP and 88 armor, and 1781 HP and 69.2 armor respectively, and while they do have some damage in their kit, but they are in general tank based.

So what think should be done is to add a base def stat bonus. increasing your base HP by 1% per 50 bonus HP, and 1% per 5 armor type. that way you are getting more rewarded for building tanky and other player would be abusing the power of defensive stats.

Going back on my previous example with Rammus and Fizz if the boost was applied.Rammus would be Getting 405.2 HP, 20.9 armor and 8.544 MR more, leaving him with a total of 3431.2 HP, 275.4 armor and 141,94 MR.

So this begs the question, should tank item be nerfed to compensate for tanks only bonus scaling? Properly considering that Squishes were weak from the start and that they only got so powerful because of the raw power of these items, perhaps even increase the bonus scaling even more as if they are nerfed hard. I don't have a problem if a assassin or a ADC needs one defensive Item to survive and that particular game demands it. The issue this that they get are getting a crap load of flat stats and because of who the base stats of each champion is laid out, all champions are getting the same amount of defensive power and the only thing that is detrimental to building tanky as a champ that is not made for that is high scaling-poor base damage. Juggernauts have at least an excuse for having insane tankiness and damage as they are slow and kitable, and speaking of juggs, they should be getting some of or the same bonus scaling as tanks because of their play style.

lastly I also wanted to add this video Redmercy talking about this issue as he also wants assassins to be build as glass cannons as they were meant to be, Peace:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9O1D6bOYS0

4 Comments

BluePolarizer4 votes

There's a simple problem with a simple solution.

Simple problem: every champ has about the same base stats at level 18 with only a 300 HP spread. almost all abilities in the game scale similarly. Every AP spell scales at around 50% to 70% AP. Every bonus AD spell scales from 1.0 to 1.5 bonus AD. Every spell does around 250 base damage. This means an assassin going tank is nothing different than a tank going tank, and a tank going damage is going to be an assassin just like an assassin going damage (see full AP Malphite and his ability to "assassinate" entire teams).

Simple solution: drastically increase the spread of base stats, base damage and scaling.

Give assassins scaling like 80% AP or 100% AP - but make their base damage so trash (<200) that they NEED to build damage to do anything.

GIve tanks huge base stats and base damage, but don't give them the standard 50%-60% AP scaling. GIve them something like 30-40%.

DragonShea1 votes

EXACTLY!!! That is also what I think about the problem. Tanks just don't have any higher tank stats than (as I mentioned) Fighters and tanky mages. I would love to see my man Rammus have about 3000 HP, 140 AD and 150 Armor in return for about 30% AP scaling on his Q and his Ult dealing less damage(about 40 per tick +15 AP). Just as an example.

And Ironically tanks have the scaling to deal INSANE damage while ADC and assassins can get away with OP tanking. Talking about making Assassin's base damage trash. I was thinking that they could either have that tank scaling bonus I mentioned for tanks but instead for their damage or just make their Lv 1 damage ok-ish and scale poorly over Lv's

Leeerzeichen1 votes

I think there is a general problem with tankieness. Every squishy is tankier than before: assassin build fulltank, mages go a liandrys + rylais + roa + protobelt build and get a huge amount of hp, adcs get phantom dancer + deaths dance, maw/steraks + black cleaver. Bassically: adcs get tankier --> assassins struggle to do thier job --> assassins build tanky --> mages cant do enought damage in one rotation, to hurt the adc or assassin --> they build tanky too. I really miss the old glass cannon builds and i think riot should encourage those builds instead of nerfing them further and stop adding new pseudo tank items like (maw, steraks, protobelt, ...)

DragonShea1 votes

True it seems that if one damage class gets tanky the others suffer for it. I don't mind them get any kind of defense but you have to look at the stats of all the champs. many of them have defensive stats that would rival some tanks and vice versa in the sense that some tanks have poor health, in a nutshell tanks don't have higher base armor stats. And those that have less than average is due to active mitigation, shen is an example of this but in his case it's justified(unlike morde) as his passive shields him from a lot of damage and he can sustain it if played well. However in general most tanks have similar base durability as some fighters and tanky mages like ryze and morgana and they don't get any advantage over them if they also build a bit more tanky.

I think the main issue is that all non tanks apart from ADC's get more milage out of tank items and the kit of some champions allow them to still deal an absurd amount of damage while being basically immoral. And the reason is because tank items grant a high amount of flat armor stats and tanks despite having good damage scaling, can't deal damage fluidly due to design, CD's or mana cost. And that is fair enough as they have powerful CC and they are not meant to deal damage, and it's a way of capping it.

Why I mentioned a tank only scaling mechanic was because too many non tanks are abusing tank items and if tanks, who are meant to use them get more stats out of them than the rest, that would make it so that assassins or mages that need them would get some survivability, but not to the extent that they outperform tanks in terms of durability and overall raw power.

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