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Juggernauts Types: Freight trains and Raid Bosses.

DragonShea··84 votes·8,840 views

Hi all, since I love Juggs because I like being able to have some serious damage while also being tough AF. I was thinking how they play and realised that juggernauts actually have two types, one that rely on sticking power and speed and ones that are much slower but have serious damage that can kill anyone that is not careful around them. I am gonna name these two types: Freight trains and raid boss. I'll start with Freight trains first.

Freight trains: High speed juggs who will try and run at you to bash your skull in:

Champions include: Garen Shyvana Olaf Volibear Udyr Trundle(Raid boss hybrid) Skarner (Vanguard hybrid)DrMundo

These juggs want run at you and deals as much damage as they can. most of them want to use one of their strong ability in conjuction on their high AA power (High AD and AS) and do not want you to get out of range, so they are very weak to kiting and pokes, making sticking power is very important to them.

Raid Bosses: Slow but FFS don't try and 1v1 them or in some cases 1v2 them:

These Juggs are Slow AF but will end anyone that nears them, these juggs have specific prerequisites for doing their damage but when they do, they annihilate anyone that fucks with them and anyone those ain't tanky or gets out the way is screwed. They also have better lock in mechainics's and CC to stop anyone who get too close from escaping making hard to flee if they are caught out of position.

Champions include:Illaoi YorickDarius Mordekaiser Nasus Urgot

Note on Skarner: Skarner has combination of freight train and vanguard traits as he deals consistent damage with his Q and has sticking power while also having the MS needed to pick out his target. He also has a shield and deals AoE damage which is a key trait of vanguards as they need it to be a threat to the enemy team. he doesn't have proper 1v1 potential unless he is in near his spires do deal good damage and his CC is unreliable.

Note on Rework Urgot: Even if Urgot got a dash, this does not make him a Freight Train as he is slow but has the Killzone effect of a Raid Boss. He (obviously) has more range and the inverse of a single long range ability. (Darius Hook. Illaoi Tentacle, Yorick's Mist tag) in the form of a dash. A Key trait of a Freight Train Juggernaut is the ability to run at high speed and maul their target to death like an angry bear. Like Raid Bosses his damage is conditional in the form of Shotgun Knee Reload time/CD and His ult requiring a target to be at Low HP to eat them up.

Hope you like this analysis of Juggs. Peace.

162 Comments

Jerry SeinfeId30 votes

Trollernauts: meme you through laning fase, then meme your team.

Champions included: Singed Singed Singed

DragonShea7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vape Naysh YalI,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXlNK234,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-02-22T18:44:39.611+0000)

Trollernauts: meme you through laning fase, then meme your team.

Champions included: Singed Singed Singed

My man.

SlntReaper11 votes

Nunu

SH Azykan2 votes

Alistar top as well (headbutts you to stop you taking the cannon EVERY GOD DAMN TIME)

50000000000000004 votes

Tilt is the hardest CC

Spoofghoul12 votes

Sion train you say? your puny body's the only joke here

Glory ln Death2 votes

Freight train? Hah! I'll take my Sion WAR TRAIN!!!

Ralanr10 votes

Not bad honestly.

Malicious Metal7 votes

Pretty fucking great to be honest.

Jezebelle3 votes

The whole ideation behind 'juggernauts' though, is that they're ALL immobile. Slight mobility (in Garen's case) is considered acceptable, but never FAST.

GigglesO3 votes

{quoted}

The whole ideation behind 'juggernauts' though, is that they're ALL immobile. Slight mobility (in Garen's case) is considered acceptable, but never FAST.

Until you buy.

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4th3t0s5 votes

This is why he categorized some of them as "freight trains." If you IRL get hit by an actual train, you are either mute, or suicidal; you CANNOT proclaim you didn't see it coming.

Variks the Loyal3 votes

Indeed. That doesn't mean the train wasn't going 60 miles an hour down the tracks.

crippler383 votes

you mean deaf yeah?

4th3t0s2 votes

No, the term "mute" generally covers being both blind and deaf; literally unable to communicate at all.

crippler385 votes

I always heard mute used as non-speaking.

Malicious Metal72 votes

High speed=/=mobility

Juggernauts are allowed to be fast. They lack unpredictable mobility like blinks or dashes and thus can be seen miles away.

Their approach is telegraphed, which balances them out.

Variks the Loyal32 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXlNK234,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-02-22T17:36:33.566+0000)

High speed=/=mobility

Juggernauts are allowed to be fast. They lack unpredictable mobility like blinks or dashes and thus can be seen miles away.

Their approach is telegraphed, which balances them out.

This. So much.

So god damn much.

DragonShea2 votes

{quoted}

This. So much.

So god damn much.

True that.

DragonShea3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXlNK234,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-02-22T17:36:33.566+0000)

High speed=/=mobility

Juggernauts are allowed to be fast. They lack unpredictable mobility like blinks or dashes and thus can be seen miles away.

Their approach is telegraphed, which balances them out.

I think so too, well said.

macromite5 votes

High speed=mobility

It's just weak mobility. do not confuse having no mobility with having little mobility.

Variks the Loyal16 votes

{quoted}

High speed=mobility

It's just weak mobility. do not confuse having no mobility with having little mobility.

Speed isn't mobility unless it's supercharged, like Quinn's ultimate.

High speed is still highly telegraphed and predictable, you just have less time to react than to normal speed. This is opposed to dashes/blinks, where you have to react immediately without time to think.

Mobility is Kassadin blinking every few seconds, Lee Sin dashing everywhere, and Katarina blinking with oodles of resets. It's not Udyr or Volibear running in your general direction.

Ackelope9 votes

i don't think this guy is trying to say that you're wrong, or that juggernauts have too much mobility, but rather he's saying that the term "mobility" is the umbrella that all of these things such as movement speed and dashes fall under. It's when you give it an adjective or some other specifier that it becomes important.

Chromatic Eagle5 votes

You are a gift to this forum, ignoring your musical preferences.

Malicious Metal4 votes

I can respect that. People like different things, would be boring if everyone liked the same stuff.

Mordepool3 votes

{quoted} .

Raid Bosses: they annihilate anyone that fucks with them and anyone those ain't tanky or gets out the way is screwed. They also have better lock in mechainics's and CC to stop anyone who get too close from escaping making hard to flee if they are caught out of position.

Champions include:Illaoi Yorick Darius Mordekaiser Nasus

Hope you like this analysis of Juggs. Peace.

Side note Morde doesn't have CC or sticking power. Still a raid boss by classification despite being squishy

Malicious Metal2 votes

Eh, the "Ideal" Morde is the prefect Raid boss on paper.

Even the current one fulfills this niche but his sticking power is pretty low. Then again, so is Illaoi's.

DragonShea2 votes

{quoted}

Side note Morde doesn't have CC or sticking power. Still a raid boss by classification despite being squishy

I was considering putting morde in the joke category, actually

SaltyKracka1 votes

He's one of the classic Rylai's abusers, so I disagree.

Hella Kaiser6 votes

he's balanced around Rylai's , so i disagree to your disagreement

Mordepool3 votes

{quoted}

He's one of the classic Rylai's abusers, so I disagree.

Intended user doesn't equal abuser. I've used Rylais on Morde back when it attached a slow to your AA back in S2

Standgrounding2 votes

Sion

Add this guy to Freight trains. He can be fast, he has HUGE bases and is durable AF, but hell, he's telegraphed AF too.

Variks the Loyal11 votes

[{quoted}](name=SMURF HENEKTON,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXlNK234,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-02-22T21:51:46.319+0000)

Sion

Add this guy to Freight trains. He can be fast, he has HUGE bases and is durable AF, but hell, he's telegraphed AF too.

I have a feeling Sion was originally intended to be that brand of Fighter (He was released before the subclasses became more defined), but Riot extremely quietly shifted him over to a tank.

Example - watch his champion spotlight, and Ravenous Hydra is among his suggested items. He has quotes for multiple offensive items, even Bloodthirster and Infinity Edge. When Teambuilder was still around, if you picked Sion, you were registered as 'Fighter', until two patches after his release where it was quietly changed to 'Tank' without any word about it.

I think they decided he had too much CC to be a proper Juggernaut, but I'd argue he's still a Juggernaut Hybrid and becomes a full fledged Juggernaut when his passive activates.

Friendly Ram1 votes

where does shen fit in here?

Illâoi Evê Siôn25 votes

Shen's a Tank.

Jeddy01711 votes

Specifically a Warden (Protective tank).

Illâoi Evê Siôn7 votes

You're more right. The best kind of right.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[deleted]

Variks the Loyal21 votes

{quoted}

Downvoted because you like a subclass that doesn't belong in PvP games.

It's fine to have a high damage, high sustain, high defense, medium crowd control character when it's the protagonist of its own game, but not when it's against characters that actually have to pick between those.

It's balanced because Juggernauts lack mobility and are very telegraphed.

You know how in MMOs, every raid boss announces their attacks and big circles appear on the ground like glowing 'don't stand here' signs? That's Juggernauts.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

You know how in MMOs, every character can always have something to dodge when that happens, or time to walk away?

That's not the case in this game. If it were, Juggs wouldn't consistently have higher than average winrates. The fact that they've never been bad choices is a direct counter to the argument that lack of mobility matters when they all have ways to overcome it.

Downvote this comment. It really doesn't matter. It's obvious the main audience for this clickbait thread is people who don't know which champions are actually juggernauts, and fans of juggernauts. The thread's a joke, and it's only people who cry when they're rightfully counterpicked as a juggernaut who think they're fair-- since that's the only way to counter them.

Variks the Loyal7 votes

{quoted}

You know how in MMOs, every character can always have something to dodge when that happens, or time to walk away?

The vast majority of not-juggernaut champions have the same benefit.

Get Tier 1 boots, for example, and you should always avoid an Illaoi tentacle if you're paying attention. It's why I love using Renekton into Illaoi; I can always use his E to avoid tentacle slams and spirit grabs.

Most champions have some form of dash or movement speed boost to avoid the telegraphed abilities a juggernaut uses. The only ones that don't are either other juggernauts, or immobile tanks.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Again, if this were true then they would see winrates closer to 40%. They don't.

Unlike a raid boss AI, these are people. They aren't designed to give you that chance and use their CC and timing to their own advantage, unlike AI.

Variks the Loyal3 votes

Winrates have almost nothing to do with strength.

The least played champions in the game have the highest winrates because only dedicated mains play them. That almost certainly has something to do with the high winrates of Juggernauts; Darius is the only one that people play frequently in solo queue.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Which should not be possible as a case, if juggernauts have such a crippling weakness as OP claims "lack of mobility" is. It doesn't matter how immobile you are if you can survive long enough to walk into the enemies once they've blown theirs. (and have flash+abilities triple the range of melee auto attacks)

Azir and Taliyah have difficult kits, but in exchange reward mastery of their mechanics. A high winrate on a juggernaut, even on a main, only serves to prove my point. There is nothing in their kits to be learned aside from how to deal with more mobile champions. Once that's learned, the only weakness is removed.

Again, if it were such a crippling weakness then there would be no method to deal with mobile champions. But since there is, the only real way to counter them is in champion select by choosing someone who can kite from beyond the range of the abilities built into jugg kits to deal with mobility.

Variks the Loyal3 votes

{quoted}

Which should not be possible as a case, if juggernauts have such a crippling weakness as OP claims "lack of mobility" is.

Why?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

I said why.

Finish reading the post instead of just spamming the downvote like a jerk.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

You actually haven't really said why. All you've said is that they shouldn't have high winrates because they're immobile, thus people should always be able to outplay them.

You're right in that the Juggernaut player can use personal skill to compensate for some of the Juggernaut's core weaknesses, but that's true of any class and it's part of the path to mastery. Learning the ins and outs of your champion and playing in ways that accentuate your strengths and downplay your weaknesses is how anyone would play anyone, not just juggernauts.

So, why? Why does a juggernaut's lack of mobility automatically mean that it's impossible for them to have high winrates?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

No, you didn't read the post. At least, you read it incorrectly.

What I said was that unlike a high skill cap champion, juggernauts do not have abilities that need to be learned.

So no amount of player skill should be able to overcome their weakness. And the fact most aren't played at high levels (where more difficult champions dance around juggernauts) reflects this.

However, the high winrates seen in a majority of play suggest that that the weakness is not hard to overcome despite the fact it should be.

The point was that juggernauts are specifically not a class in which a player can use personal skill to compensate because their abilities don't allow it. Yet the overtuned strength of said abilities counters this.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

But that goes against everything that Riot stands for. League is a neverending 'path to mastery', and as you play the champion, you learn ways to overcome their weaknesses and make up for their shortcomings with skill.

You're contradicting yourself, too. You say the high winrates suggest that players can overcome the Juggernauts weaknesses, while at the same time their lack of play at high levels means that players can't overcome their weaknesses?

Juggernauts absolutely do have abilities that need to be learned. You can't look at a niche champion like Yorick, and not tell me that there isn't a level of game knowledge required to make that champion work to it's highest efficiency. You can't take an objective based champion like Skarner, and tell me there aren't nuances and skills you need to learn to play him to his highest ability.

DragonShea9 votes

{quoted}

Downvoted because you like a subclass that doesn't belong in PvP games.

It's fine to have a high damage, high sustain, high defense, medium crowd control character when it's the protagonist of its own game, but not when it's against characters that actually have to pick between those.

You do realise that when you blatantly state you downvoted someone who has a point while yours is invalid because you either didn't realising or deliberately omitted the fact that such characters have poor mobility is piss poor idea?

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