ADC's need to lose their carry monopoly and supports need to help the whole team.

DragonShea··117 votes·5,138 views

OK now this might russle some jimmies but the big problem that I've seen with bot lane is that Marksmen have too much power and so do supports, or rather, they are forced to be a bodyguard for them in order to do good. recently due to a lane swap I got both my ass handed to me and won the game due to my bot being tactical as fuck and rekting the enemy team. Now this as been something that has been on my mind for some time now and I wanted to make this issue more clear for everyone to see.

Bot is the dominating force in the game, and that shit is old new. However, the issue is that Supports are also forced to serve the ADC instead of the team so these things need to be done:

  • ADC's most lost some of their carry power and have that power delegated to other lanes, top and mid need more agency in the game.
  • Make DPS champs such as Mages and Fighter have the ability to carry like Marksmen.
  • Proper define the strengths and weaknesses of each types of carry types as well as positioning, as well as the ability to carry not just by killing, but by objective control, split push teamfighting etc.
  • Supports most be less tied to ADC's and more focused on serving the team instead of the ADC.
  • Make enforce the roles of duelist (Vayne Kaisa Kalista) and backline ADC's (Xayah MissFortune Caitlyn ) to allow for more independent ADC's that are not support reliant.

This means ADC's should no longer be the main carry of the team but instead provide ranged damage alongside Mages. One class deals mainly physical damage, the other, magic. It should be that way but right now Marksmen are so powerful that even with armor, they can still deal colossal damage in a few hits when in fact they need to just deal a large amount of damage to the opponent that doesn't get out of their range, their sustained damage is too high and that is why they are too damn powerful. Now I don't mind if immobile marksmen like Jhin Jinx or KogMaw dealt that much damage because they don't have the mobility that Lucian Vayne or Ezreal.

Next I want to talk about how supports should be a backing up the entire team, going from one person to the whole team as the game goes one. They should be their for their teammates and their role is to cover them, that is why enchanters, wardens and catchers are played bot, to protect a carry and make or deny plays. However they should protect the most valuable player first but never forget to save as many as they can, they should be the lifeline of a team but still not be so OP that their power is greater than one champion. It might sound contracting but if they can save the MVP then it's its good. if they can save the MVP and the player that int's like 24/7 then it's great.

Another thing I want to discuss is that the frontline is more dangerous for some melee champs because you either have to be a tank or a skirmisher to get in and fight without any worries of dying or getting shredded. and that is where damage needing to be lowered across the board is needed in order for melees to be there without getting merced. Because it will make sustained damage more impactful as well as burst as it will promote skilled use of positioning and timing to deal damage effectively.

Anyways, I wanted to make discuss what I see as an imbalance of the game of where having one individual/class having too much power and the game reliving around them is not a good thing and what I think needs to be done in order to make the game less dependent on one role but by overall skill and effort.

peace out.

165 Comments

RenownedWheat4231 votes

Supports do help the whole team, from low elo where I'm at to the LCS/LPL/LCK stages.

Critmaster Garen23 votes

{quoted}

Supports do help the whole team, from low elo where I'm at to the LCS/LPL/LCK stages.

right, but back when ardent cancer happened last season, it was a result of a support item rework that made supports and their items focus on heavy marksmen synergy.

since then theyve tuned some of those items down, but the fact that supports and their items still synergize stronger with marksmen than with other carry types didnt really change. supports can help their team overall, but theyre really fucking good at helping marksmen.

over time riot removed support items that buffed champion ap and melee champions and replaced it with a couple of items that were geared around absorbing burst damage on an allied champion, and injecting sustain and damage stats into auto attack based champions. because burst is what counters marksmen the most, and they also benefit a ton from the on hit damage and attack speed that censer still provides.

its riots fault for making supports overly synergetic with marksmen instead of being able to support different types of carries equally, depending on what items they build.

like where are the items that grant damage auras to melee champions? where are the items that increase your ap, tenacity, or grant spellvamp?

even item 3050 is an item thats clearly aimed at wardens like Taric who sit next to their adc and give them a damage boost and add additional kiting with the frost storm. its again another item that only empowers auto attacks.

DragonShea8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5IEAHhsP,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-13T08:44:59.095+0000)

right, but back when ardent cancer happened last season, it was a result of a support item rework that made supports and their items focus on heavy marksmen synergy.

since then theyve tuned some of those items down, but the fact that supports and their items still synergize stronger with marksmen than with other carry types didnt really change. supports can help their team overall, but theyre really fucking good at helping marksmen.

over time riot removed support items that buffed champion ap and melee champions and replaced it with a couple of items that were geared around absorbing burst damage on an allied champion, and injecting sustain and damage stats into auto attack based champions. because burst is what counters marksmen the most, and they also benefit a ton from the on hit damage and attack speed that censer still provides.

its riots fault for making supports overly synergetic with marksmen instead of being able to support different types of carries equally, depending on what items they build.

like where are the items that grant damage auras to melee champions? where are the items that increase your ap, tenacity, or grant spellvamp?

even item 3050 is an item thats clearly aimed at wardens like Taric who sit next to their adc and give them a damage boost and add additional kiting with the frost storm. its again another item that only empowers auto attacks.

Well said, that is exactly what I meant with supports being too tied to ADC's they don't have enough options to help with the offense of other roles.

RainbowIcee4 votes

supports kits though are mostly geared towards the ADC as they're designed to team fights and peel/engage or sustain the ADC. Given they are designed to be played but however it would be nice to have an enchanter that for example lowered MR/Armor or gave some raw stats to help other carries. Ofcourse ADC's will benefit from this too but so will others like fighters/skirmishers.

ChaddyFantome7 votes

{quoted}

supports kits though are mostly geared towards the ADC as they're designed to team fights and peel/engage or sustain the ADC. Given they are designed to be played but however it would be nice to have an enchanter that for example lowered MR/Armor or gave some raw stats to help other carries. Ofcourse ADC's will benefit from this too but so will others like fighters/skirmishers.

Pretty sure fighters and skirmishers like atk speed, AD, sustain, and MS boosts, shields etc. Its just that ADCs simply , from a fundemental perspective, use em better due to being stronger and more important.

Blocking 7k damage with your shield on your tank, despite being mathematically the best use of it, since they scale with your targets resistances, isnt as important than blocking even just 800 damage on your ADC, because ADC decide the game.

If they die, you lose. If they dont, you win.

saltran13 votes

I'm not saying that you are one of those but is funny how majority of the Boards hate mage-supps like Brand and at the same time they upvote threads like yours that is asking for more not adc linked supps.

Not hating on your thread, it's well written and I'm also reading the discusion cuz it's very interesting.

DragonShea9 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying that you are one of those but is funny how majority of the Boards hate mage-supps like Brand and at the same time they upvote threads like yours that is asking for more not adc linked supps.

Not hating on your thread, it's well written and I'm also reading the discusion cuz it's very interesting.

No prob's I think the issue is that people don't know how to deal with oppressive champs at lower elo's and what is good or cheese trickles down and becomes meta, thus screwing over lower level players.

Anyways, I personally would like to see supports being a bit more focused on team aid then being an ADC's bodyguard 24/7

saltran3 votes

Yep, similar at how Vayne top was garbage but there was a lot of threads complaining about it before the nerf she got (and well deserved) a few pathces ago.

xJLx MCHammer3 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying that you are one of those but is funny how majority of the Boards hate mage-supps like Brand and at the same time they upvote threads like yours that is asking for more not adc linked supps.

Not hating on your thread, it's well written and I'm also reading the discusion cuz it's very interesting.

You’re wrong about this People crying about Brand is in regards to. brand just being an DPS mage. He nearly isn’t a AP support, he’s just there for his absurdly high base values and horrible scaling.

What people want are Support champions that also enable other champions equally as they enable ADCs. For example, why is there a Zeke to increase the damage of ADC champions but nothing equivalent to AP champion, or other non Crit stacking champions? Why did riot make and encourage Ardent when it clearly benefits ADC champion. After all, this item benefit Attack Speed stacking champions. This was a items that most definitely benefited ADC champions much more than any other class. We saw how Worlds was this year. A death ball of 5 people running around with an ADC as a front line tanking and doing absurd damage while protect by 3-4 players.

This is kinda the issue. You had Nunu that only increase attack speed for champions. Once again, until recently, it was a champion who was designed to help AS stacking champions.

JackMcSnipeyz12 votes

I'll start by saying that just because i disagree with your comment, im not saying adc are at a balanced state, they do need work.

Now that i got that out of the way, i'll say why i disagree with your opinion: Mages and other classes should not deal as much damage as adc, simply by the fact that they have other strengths such as high base damages for bruisers, or built in sustain, or they have a ton of utility, like mages. Marksmen only have damage, those who have utility pay for it like ashe who cant crit or sivir who has huge mana costs and the lowest range of all marksman. Saying something like Oriana should deal the same amounts of damage as marksmen is wrong, damage isnt everything, not when you have shields, slows, movespeed buffs and one of the best teamfight ulties in the game. Mages who are designated DPS subclass such as cass or karthus do enough damage to contest marksmen no problem, they always have. Marksmen are and always have been the most team reliant class, they have no agency over the game's pace.

The only ones who should do as much consistant damage as adc are melee adc and DPS mages (who do have that going for them).

Edit: i'd like to add i fully support having support (heh) players have items to help other classes and not just adc, when i play adc i'd like my support to have an option to go help other players later in the game espacially if i didnt do well in lane or someone else is clearly more ahed and can use the support's abilities.

DragonShea6 votes

{quoted}

I'll start by saying that just because i disagree with your comment, im not saying adc are at a balanced state, they do need work.

Now that i got that out of the way, i'll say why i disagree with your opinion: Mages and other classes should not deal as much damage as adc, simply by the fact that they have other strengths such as high base damages for bruisers, or built in sustain, or they have a ton of utility, like mages. Marksmen only have damage, those who have utility pay for it like ashe who cant crit or sivir who has huge mana costs and the lowest range of all marksman. Saying something like Oriana should deal the same amounts of damage as marksmen is wrong, damage isnt everything, not when you have shields, slows, movespeed buffs and one of the best teamfight ulties in the game. Mages who are designated DPS subclass such as cass or karthus do enough damage to contest marksmen no problem, they always have. Marksmen are and always have been the most team reliant class, they have no agency over the game's pace.

The only ones who should do as much consistant damage as adc are melee adc and DPS mages (who do have that going for them).

Fair point, on one hand Marksmen should have to pay for it but when it's too much or when is it too little? It's not it's not just the fact they deal a shit load of damage that bothers me but the fact that they are the main carry role when it should be something that other dps classes should be able to do in order to spread out the power and responsibility to carry a game.

I can accept that Marksmen have the highest damage in the game but should they have a monopoly on carrying? No. I am not gonna go into the same stuff about crit and them gaining their power spike too fast as that is a dead horse subject by now. What I will say is that Marksmen shouldn't be the role that decide the whole game.

JackMcSnipeyz8 votes

Which is why i said adc are not balanced and some are way out of line. If you think i enjoy getting 1 shot by vayne with statik+IE you're wrong, im not playing an RPG i gain nothing from having some adc OP i dont get faction point when vayne or trist carries a game. Hell my most banned champ is tristana regardless of my pick because i dont wanna face her in game.

2nd, adc do not decide the game, like i said, they have no saying on game pace. Adc without a good frontline to engage will never survive enough time to deal his damage, adc without support/peel will get focused instantly, adc without a mage alongside will not have the AoE and utility to close fights. Yes sometimes it really seems like tristana solo carried but people tend to overlook the lulu that peeled or the malph who engaged perfectly or the mage who shredded everyone with AoE's.

Im not saying your points arent valid, i think we kinda half agree on some things, just sharing my prespective as someone who plays both marksmen and top.

DragonShea3 votes

{quoted}

Which is why i said adc are not balanced and some are way out of line. If you think i enjoy getting 1 shot by vayne with statik+IE you're wrong, im not playing an RPG i gain nothing from having some adc OP i dont get faction point when vayne or trist carries a game. Hell my most banned champ is tristana regardless of my pick because i dont wanna face her in game.

2nd, adc do not decide the game, like i said, they have no saying on game pace. Adc without a good frontline to engage will never survive enough time to deal his damage, adc without support/peel will get focused instantly, adc without a mage alongside will not have the AoE and utility to close fights. Yes sometimes it really seems like tristana solo carried but people tend to overlook the lulu that peeled or the malph who engaged perfectly or the mage who shredded everyone with AoE's.

Im not saying your points arent valid, i think we kinda half agree on some things, just sharing my prespective as someone who plays both marksmen and top.

Fair enough, at least we do agree that ADC's are ticking the box's on what their role is supposed to be. And I ain't gonna dispute your point since I don't play ADC. I think it's safe to say that damage is the main issue, because I don't think that ADC's should ever one-shot someone unless it's a fed Jhin since they are supposed to thrive in a prolonged fight as long as they have protection.

saltran5 votes

"Hell my most banned champ is tristana regardless of my pick because i dont wanna face her in game."

Okay as someoen who is playing Tristana in ranked I can only say that you are indeed a wise person for banning this little yordle.

JackMcSnipeyz4 votes

She's just way too safe IMO, from her range to knockup to the jump reset. Even when i play her im surprised how many times i can jump in a fight, put charge, jump onto a person detonate it, jump again, kill, jump out . It's such over kill IMO she's safe enough she doesnt need that many ways to reset her huge mobility ability.

Champion Skin4 votes

those who have utility pay for it like ashe who cant crit

This is false as Ashe can crit (it increases her slow) and she also gains 1% increased AA damage per 1% crit (which is the average damage increase from crit) to targets affected by her passive slow

Mages who are designated DPS subclass such as cass or karthus do enough damage to contest marksmen no problem, they always have.

The problem with things like Karthus and Cass compared with an ADC is that they can do almost no damage if they miss their skill shots (yes Cass E is a targeted ability but it does low damage if the target isn't poisoned) there is no such failure case for an ADC AA's

Yaskamasandwich12 votes

You've basically said most of the problems. Marksmen should not be the sole carry of the game. Need a lot more early and mid game Marksmen to share around and strategize team comps. Being sole carries just makes them all the same, repeating old problems over and over again. Supports should support the team again. Perhaps a few things more things to add.

One thing I think Crit it self should be removed from items and placed into kits. I like how Jhin gets a crit on his 4th shot, or Fiora on her E (? I don't play Fiora I just know she crits with an ability). That's how crit should work. It should also really be more of an Assassin ability. I don't get why the sustain damage dealers get crit, crit in its own definition is burst. Marksmen having burst and sustain damage is causing the whole burst per second problem. Certain Marksmen like Jhin can have crit but he sacrafices sustain for burst anyway so it works for him.

Another issue Marksmen need addressed is they need to rely on their abilities and not their auto attacks. Tristana is the prime example. Her kit is sensible and actually cool. She's suppose to lob a bomb on someone, press her Q to make the bomb charge faster, then jump on them. If they explode she gets rewarded to jump out. ... however it is just much easier to press Q and auto attack someone to death and lob the bomb on them as an option. Her entire rework was suppose to prevent that problem but now she's back in her same old problematic self. Marksmen need more emphasis on their abilities and kits and less on their auto attacks.

HavokDash10 votes

As A support main, I do my best to support my whole team. Unfortunately Most of the adcs I get, if not all have a really bad EGO problem. I can bust my ass to keep them healed, to cc the enemy, get them a triple/quadra and still be told how "completely fucking useless" I am and how the Quadra I kept them alive long enough to get was "all me"

How If I take any more than 1 CS, my adc throws a god damn tantrum like a toddler who didnt get ALL the cookies, and storms off lane to go idle..or maybe invade mid because "you want to take minion? you can have the whole lane, you are now adc. Bye" (This said to me by my adc after I had a whole 3 cs. Adc proceeded to invade mid or idle in spawn)

Adc have become the spoiled entitled Divas of League, They think the entire game revolves around them so they can degrade and insult thier team, tell everyone else how "garbage team" they are because ADC doesnt get "all the kills" so "cant get fed, team KS's me. GG" As I said, as a support, I do help the entire team. and If my Adc starts acting like a DIVA...Yeah, I ditch them. If you are my adc and want to start going off with a case of "Diarrhea of the mouth" and go on about how you are "too good for this trash team" and "dont need a useless support" against an enemy adc/support that knows how to work together so they BOTH get fed... Well dont be suprised when I call your bluff and walk off to help the rest of the team If you think you dont need a team? dont need a support? that you can 1v4 360noscope? Good, PROVE IT. and when you die? you dont get to turn around and call to report me for "trolling" because you think you cant be touched and the enemy team ends up handing you your ass with a side of gravy.

If riot wants to know why no one wants to play support? Its not the champs, Its not the items. its the "support/jungle are less than pond scum" mentality. Just because I am your support, does not mean I am your personal little punching bag when you need to take out frustration after not landing a kill.

DragonShea3 votes

{quoted}

As A support main, I do my best to support my whole team. Unfortunately Most of the adcs I get, if not all have a really bad EGO problem. I can bust my ass to keep them healed, to cc the enemy, get them a triple/quadra and still be told how "completely fucking useless" I am and how the Quadra I kept them alive long enough to get was "all me"

How If I take any more than 1 CS, my adc throws a god damn tantrum like a toddler who didnt get ALL the cookies, and storms off lane to go idle..or maybe invade mid because "you want to take minion? you can have the whole lane, you are now adc. Bye" (This said to me by my adc after I had a whole 3 cs. Adc proceeded to invade mid or idle in spawn)

Adc have become the spoiled entitled Divas of League, They think the entire game revolves around them so they can degrade and insult thier team, tell everyone else how "garbage team" they are because ADC doesnt get "all the kills" so "cant get fed, team KS's me. GG" As I said, as a support, I do help the entire team. and If my Adc starts acting like a DIVA...Yeah, I ditch them. If you are my adc and want to start going off with a case of "Diarrhea of the mouth" and go on about how you are "too good for this trash team" and "dont need a useless support" against an enemy adc/support that knows how to work together so they BOTH get fed... Well dont be suprised when I call your bluff and walk off to help the rest of the team If you think you dont need a team? dont need a support? that you can 1v4 360noscope? Good, PROVE IT. and when you die? you dont get to turn around and call to report me for "trolling" because you think you cant be touched and the enemy team ends up handing you your ass with a side of gravy.

If riot wants to know why no one wants to play support? Its not the champs, Its not the items. its the "support/jungle are less than pond scum" mentality. Just because I am your support, does not mean I am your personal little punching bag when you need to take out frustration after not landing a kill.

that is why sometimes as a support I leave those bastards and try to help out out my other teammates.

OtterlyLost8 votes

The reason that ADC's have a support with them is because most ADC's kits don't have any form of self peel and their items provide next to no defensive stats. ADCs wouldn't survive without a support to help them out; they don't get Zhonya's, Banshees was taken from them, they don't get the vast amount of health and CDR that mages are alotted on their items, they generally don't have the levels to stand up against most solo laners and even if they do, most solo laners can literally just run them down, and their kits generally lack any meaningful CC or peel to allow them to save themselves. Mages have utility as well as vast amounts of damage and get all sorts of CDR and defensive options to help them survive. If they were to move supports away from ADCs, that would leave them in a worse position than they currently are. Because, yes, ADCs aren't in a good position, regardless of what the circlejerkers want to say. Most of the top ADCs currently don't even build crit and if they do, they're pretty much required to rely on Statik Shiv to do damage. Shiv is the only thing keeping most crit based ADCs relevant; if that goes, then so do all of the ADCs and it feels bad. It feels awful to play. I have no build diversity; I'm required to build Shiv or I don't get to do anything. There are three other Zeal items but I don't get to build any of them first because they just can't match up to Shiv. And sure, I get a second one but I'm trolling if its not RFC, which feels shit in general. RFC is a terrible item that they bandaid fixed by giving it an interaction with Shiv.

I'd rather see them actually fix ADC's and Crit than just toss them aside like it feels like they're doing with all of these suggestions of allowing champions besides ADCs bot. Which is hypocritical of especially top lane mains; any time an ADC attempts to go to another lane, particularly top lane, there is hell raised by the mains who don't want them there and feel like they're oppressive or obnoxious. But now no one wants them bot lane; where are they meant to go at this point? Are ADC mains just meant to not have the opportunity to play because a bunch of melee fanaticals say that ADCs aren't allowed to exist?

Sp33d Zer07 votes

To be fair every adc has a form of self peel. It's just not always the best self peel. Ashe slows galore Caitlyn net and traps Corki Valkyrie Draven stand aside Ezreal arcane shift Jinx traps and zap Kalista hops Kaisa stealth speed boost KogMaw slow field Lucian dashes MissFortune speed boost and slow Sivir spell shield and speed boosts Tristana jump and knockback Twitch stealth and slow field Varus slow and root Vayne dash stealth and kickback/stun Xayah root

saltran1 votes

And the only one that is played in a solo lane is... Corky surprise!, who is the only one of all this that is not viable bot, what a mistery coincidence. Others like Twicht or Ezreal are/were played Jng because you don't have to deal with a laning fase and can gank fine with red.

Sp33d Zer06 votes

All I'm saying is that "they dont have self peel" is not a fair statement.

Also Vayne is played top, Lucian is played top and mid, varus had a long history as a mid laner.

ampheon5 votes

Idk, I've played with Corki bots b4 (tho that was last season so it's prob not Viable now), but isn't the main reason Corki isn't in bot is going mid allows him to roam better with the package and have greater potential to surprise other lanes?

Ariel the Cruel7 votes

Re-posting this. Seems relevant.

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=unc8Ovye,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-10T02:17:04.643+0000) Personally, I agree that ADC's present an issue. But they're ultimately a symptom of larger problems.

  • range > melee. Riot doesn't do much to mitigate this at a macro level; and often band-aids melees to mitigate at a micro level.
  • AA damage > spell damage. Again, at a macro level and in a vacuum. AA's have high scaling 1.0 AD (up to 2.5 with crit), the lowest max (and average) cooldown in the game, and are resourceless.
  • Structures. Excluding Ziggs, there is no way to kill structures with abilities. Very few champions (and sheen) have abilities that can even affect structures.

ADC's "Marksman" benefit from all three of these core game mechanics. That's why they will always be necessary. Before we even begin looking at individual stats and kits, ADC's have macro-level advantage.

And before "that guy" posts, supports aren't a core problem. Their state (role, class, champion, and itemization) are also symptoms of their own problems. But, for the most part, their influence applies equally to every one (regardless of game state). That's why they tend to vanish when ever the meta even remotely allows it.

Cowgirl Ed6 votes

I want to have double fighters botlane, double relic shield, stuff like that Would be a lot fun, people would play champs they like instead what they're forced to

DragonShea3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiss Kiss Kiss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5IEAHhsP,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-03-13T11:38:04.567+0000)

I want to have double fighters botlane, double relic shield, stuff like that Would be a lot fun, people would play champs they like instead what they're forced to

I might be a Yorick-holic but i am bit too tied to the meta mentality to jump into that idea. Morde's rework is still fresh after all these years.

ampheon5 votes

Taric Leona or Braum Taric

The Bearded Bard6 votes

Every year since the beginning of this game I've wished for the end of adc's reign of bullshit, I fear this won't be the year

The Trent5 votes

The only time I don't help my whole team as support is when I have a kogmaw. Also why are you guys acting like kha zix/ kayn can't 1 shot the adc and support when fed? Like I remember when they could one shot and make it so the adc would have to go b, but now they can literally one shot and they're dead.

Mossy Lungs4 votes

I second this. I remember when Bard was being teased/shown as a mobile/roaming support, as a support main I was ecstatic! I love helping the ENTIRE team, but for a good 2/3's of a match you have to literally shove yourself up your adc's ass and follow them EVERYWHERE and nurturing them incessantly. It's a shame that bard wasn't able to do what he was intended to do because of the backlash you get when you play him , "where the fk are you Bard?!" "Help bot since Bard can't stay put!".

Steelflame3 votes

I've said it multiple times, but I think crit needs a rework.

Basic gist is rework crit from double damage to 100% penetration (perhaps 80% or the like, with 100% from IE). It makes crit more about taking out tanks/high resist targets, and less omni-potent. Crit is still obviously always a damage up, but its not a target agnostic damage up, but very specialized based on what the target is building. For comparison of numbers, its weaker at 100% crit no IE at 100 armor or below (stronger above), and with IE its weaker at 150 armor below, stronger above.

Could perhaps also rework IE to be more like Wicked Hatchet/Lightbringer. item 3122item 3185 to making the crit do some damage as extra over time.

DragonShea8 votes

{quoted}

I've said it multiple times, but I think crit needs a rework.

Basic gist is rework crit from double damage to 100% penetration (perhaps 80% or the like, with 100% from IE). It makes crit more about taking out tanks/high resist targets, and less omni-potent. Crit is still obviously always a damage up, but its not a target agnostic damage up, but very specialized based on what the target is building. For comparison of numbers, its weaker at 100% crit no IE at 100 armor or below (stronger above), and with IE its weaker at 150 armor below, stronger above.

Could perhaps also rework IE to be more like Wicked Hatchet/Lightbringer. item 3122item 3185 to making the crit do some damage as extra over time.

I think it would be better if crit dealt increased AA damage by a percentage instead of it dealing double damage based on chance.

Steelflame4 votes

Then you haven't changed crit at all almost after early game, other than the occasional RNG spike, crit still ends up stupidly effective vs Squishies.

This is because Riot uses a PRNG system for crits, which weights your crits to keep it as close to the number as it can. Meaning it prevents you from going on streaks/droughts except in extreme RNG cases.

DragonShea4 votes

{quoted}

Then you haven't changed crit at all almost after early game, other than the occasional RNG spike, crit still ends up stupidly effective vs Squishies.

This is because Riot uses a PRNG system for crits, which weights your crits to keep it as close to the number as it can. Meaning it prevents you from going on streaks/droughts except in extreme RNG cases.

Ok but isn't Armor pen not needed for that while crit increases your damage? But what you are saying is that this new crit will deal more damage to tanks the more they build resistances but deal less damage to low armored target? I think that it just makes it harder for any champ that is building armor for and It's not really gonna help fighters in fact it's gonna hurt them a lot more because their durability is gated by your example of crit. forcing them to remain at X armor if they don't want to get wrecked by it.

I don't think that crit is the problem as much at it's the ADC's damage scaling as well as some champs not having enough defensive/armor per Lv. as It's AS+ Crit that allows ADC's to deal that much damage

k wìx3 votes

{quoted}

  • Make DPS champs such as Mages and Fighter have the ability to carry like Marksmen.

Great Post! I completely agree, but I thought you'd like to know that they are already nerfing arguably the strongest mage item in the game currently, Seraphs Embrace.

This is doing the exact OPPOSITE of what you are asking. :(

I don't think Riot is going to come through on letting anyone else 'carry'.

Sp33d Zer06 votes

Just because you don't carry with damage doesn't mean you don't carry. Utility is massive and most mages have it in spades.

LVL99 Helper TK3 votes

Good luck getting riot to admit mistakes game will rot to hell.

Sp33d Zer010 votes

KogMaw Leblanc Rengar Riven LeeSin

2Charmnot2Charm1 votes

What was the mistake with Riven? I forgotten about it.

Sp33d Zer02 votes

Extensive pbe testing removing her animation cancelling in favor of a more auto empowered build

TeCoolMage3 votes

That's what they said three years ago.

At this point if the game 'rots in hell' it'll just be the natural process games go through where they age eventually

TeCoolMage3 votes

Spreading out the importance over multiple champions lets supports choose between more things to protect and assassins more things to focus - it solves most of the frustration where supports either act like tumors to the ADC and make the assassin useless, or the assassin kills the ADC anyway and makes the support useless

DarkKatalyst3 votes

You completely forget that when an ADC is "carrying", it's also their support that's a big factor in the carry. The reality is that the ADC and the Support are carrying.

Two players doing well together should be a force to be reckoned with. If the enemy mage is as good as my ADC, and I (the support) am also as good as my ADC, then when we go up against the mage together, we should assuredly win the fight. In situations where individuals are equally matched, there should be no difference between any two players on your team winning against one player on the enemy team.

The ADC and support, when separate, should be vulnerable. If the support or ADC isn't pulling their weight, both suffer.

Jmman3 votes

Funny because mages are suppose to be APC

Ability Power Carry.

But are just called Mages because they can't carry. Only AD can carry now. I see you must not have played since the start of the game.

Leetri2 votes

To be fair it's not called ADC either, they're called Marksmen. ADC is just an old term that the players still use but it's in no way official or supported by Riot (same with Bruisers, the actual class is called Fighters). Riot did away with the term "ADC" years ago because it implied only the marksman could carry, which isn't true. I've seen plenty of top and mid players carry in my games.

Nausicäa 2 votes

Ya Riot's balance team is utterly incompetent. They have known that ADCs were broken for about a year now and have done absolutely fucking nothing to fix the situation. Pretty fucking amazing that Riot even made a post of the middle of last year saying ADC items were too cheap, meanwhile 8+ months later and 0 cost increases? Absolutely retarded balance team.

Teridax682 votes

I completely agree with this. To a larger extent, I dislike the whole idea of there being only one member of the enemy team to focus at a time, because I think that completely devalues choice on both teams. In an ideal setup where every member of the enemy team is worth focusing, with subtle differences depending on fights, cooldowns, etc., there would be much more depth when choosing who to shut down on the enemy team first, or who to protect or assist when playing a supportive role. It would also create an environment where the same player wouldn't get 5-man focused every fight, and therefore could generate significantly less frustration. Even in an environment where all individual players all have a chance to pop off and carry, rather than just one on each team, that in itself would induce significantly more diversity, since the focus wouldn't be on the same champion or class every game.

Adding to the above, I think this is something even ADC mains could/should side with, because it would benefit them: a lot of players on the Boards hold some resentment towards marksmen as a class (not necessarily marksmen players, though, at least not every time), because the class is given the central role in their team by default, and are both balanced and designed around that, in a manner that makes everyone else feel like a subordinate. However, the flipside to that is that this puts a huge amount of pressure on marksmen, as well as a lot more focus. Even players who don't main ADC have experienced at least one game where they tried to play a marksman, then had a horrible experience because the enemy team made a concerted effort to shut them down the entire match, effectively denying them from playing League of Legends throughout. Even a godlike ADC main experiences many games like these, because just like their allies, they can have their game ruined due to factors beyond their own control, namely when the enemy team manages to consistently hard-focus them and kill them no matter what they do. By sacrificing part of this spotlight, which not every ADC main wants all the time, the marksman class could become much less stressful to play, and could be much better able to carry without also having to get auto-focused every match or fight. The current, ADC-centric game environment hurts ADC players too, and moving beyond that could make League better for everyone.

Desolate Earth1 votes

[deleted]

Mig893 votes

Because there is a minimum of two ADCs in every game. I feel their winrate is a chewed because they’re mandatory. You’ll see games here and there without tanks or mages or fighters but you’ll rarely see one without an ADc

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