3 bans can't be permanent

l Main Renekton·Feb 19, 2015·57 votes·3,689 views

Think about it. You've added so many champions to the game, many of which constantly are banned at very high rates. It's getting hard to just have 3 choices to eliminate when there is a plethora of champions added to the game that players just don't like playing against. (See: as the last 4 champions produced yet still manage to have extremely high ban rates on all level of play).

tl;dr: The champion pool is rising, eventually, the ban limit needs to be raised, too, especially when you're designing champions that instantly find their way onto the ban list upon release.

90 Comments

JefftiffyFeb 19, 201512 votes

Until league does specialization 3 bans is all we need. As much as I would like to ban certain champs, I can't always do that because its just not fair to sit there and make the slots for perma bans to go from 2-6. The only 4 bans that will change would be the new ones.

Look at DOTA 2. Their heros are so diverse and so different that bans don't really mean much other than their intended purpose. To get rid of people you know are strong, your weaknesses, or your opponents strengths.

League has the muddy pool of champs that are different versions of the same vision. There are no melle ADCs. There are no mage tanks. There are no AD tanks. There are no carry tanks. And tanks are horribly ineffective in this game. Meaning we have really 5 roles: bruiser, Mage, Assassin, marksman (ADC), support. You can argue about tanks all you want but until itemization is fixed its pointless as most tanks cannot fill their role due to have terrible late game damage while dying too quickly to things capable of kiting them unless they are a hyper CC tank like Nautilus, thresh, or leona.

In fact we have just gotten champs that are different. They don't feel as copy paste. Each of the newer ones is unique feeling like the original ones used to. I mean when you play Kalista, it definitely has a different feel from Jinx. Or even Rek'Sai and Gnar. Azir has a way different feel than Vel'koz. But they still have the issue of filling roles already existing. Until we get more roles (can not be done with as few items as we have, especially when they are stat sticks), each champ will continue to feel copy pasted in some form.

KaipopFeb 19, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Until league does specialization 3 bans is all we need. As much as I would like to ban certain champs, I can't always do that because its just not fair to sit there and make the slots for perma bans to go from 2-6. The only 4 bans that will change would be the new ones.

Look at DOTA 2. Their heros are so diverse and so different that bans don't really mean much other than their intended purpose. To get rid of people you know are strong, your weaknesses, or your opponents strengths.

League has the muddy pool of champs that are different versions of the same vision. There are no melle ADCs. There are no mage tanks. There are no AD tanks. There are no carry tanks. And tanks are horribly ineffective in this game. Meaning we have really 5 roles: bruiser, Mage, Assassin, marksman (ADC), support. You can argue about tanks all you want but until itemization is fixed its pointless as most tanks cannot fill their role due to have terrible late game damage while dying too quickly to things capable of kiting them unless they are a hyper CC tank like Nautilus, thresh, or leona.

In fact we have just gotten champs that are different. They don't feel as copy paste. Each of the newer ones is unique feeling like the original ones used to. I mean when you play Kalista, it definitely has a different feel from Jinx. Or even Rek'Sai and Gnar. Azir has a way different feel than Vel'koz. But they still have the issue of filling roles already existing. Until we get more roles (can not be done with as few items as we have, especially when they are stat sticks), each champ will continue to feel copy pasted in some form.

There are plenty of melee adcs... Fiora, Master Yi, etc.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 19, 20154 votes

An ADC is not, by definition, a melee champion. That's why the changed the name to marksman to emphasize. An ADC is a ranged fighter that builds damage while sacrificing survivability. This goes exactly against the idea of a melee champion. You have melee assassins, but that is because they have mechanism in their kits to go in, get a kill, and get out. But usually once they have picked their target they're done for the fight unless incredibly fed. An ADC can deal massive amounts of damage to multiple targets consistently throughout the fight.

SolaxoFeb 19, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=the Anarchit3cht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t9PLeRE6,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-02-19T03:54:50.391+0000)

An ADC is not, by definition, a melee champion. That's why the changed the name to marksman to emphasize. An ADC is a ranged fighter that builds damage while sacrificing survivability. This goes exactly against the idea of a melee champion. You have melee assassins, but that is because they have mechanism in their kits to go in, get a kill, and get out. But usually once they have picked their target they're done for the fight unless incredibly fed. An ADC can deal massive amounts of damage to multiple targets consistently throughout the fight.

Attack Damage Carry. Where do you see "ranged only"? What definition? Do you even brain bro?

ArveanorFeb 19, 20152 votes

Don't be an idiot. adc has always been referring to ranged champions, but people like you came along and we had to get the name changed to marksman so you'd understnad.

Bodkins OddsFeb 19, 20154 votes

Explain Master Yi then. What is he if not a melee ADC?

Chaotic ReksFeb 19, 20152 votes

and assassin or fighter

NarasimhaFeb 19, 20152 votes

He doesn't have the burst for an assassin, nor the tankiness/utility to be a fighter.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 20, 20152 votes

Yi doesn't have burst damage? lol. He can 3/4 your hp with a q and basic attack. And you certainly can't run away from him because he's going to move a lot faster than you. Couple that with his attack speed and your goose is cooked if a yi can jump on your face. If you think Yi doesn't have burst you haven't seen any good Yis.

NarasimhaFeb 20, 20151 votes

If his Q can do 3/4 of my life, either I was at super low health, or I'm so squishy a sona could burst me with her Q. His Q is his ONLY offensive ability. Otherwise, he's just hacking away with autoattacks. And no matter how fast it is, if most of your damage comes from autoattacks, then its not burst, its sustained.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 20, 20152 votes

lol do i really need to get you a video showcasing this? One Q plus a few autos and you're dead. It's just the same, as say, a Talon REWQ or whatever his combo is.

That aside, he is also a good fight not only because of the damage reduction/heal on his meditate, but the fact that he can dodge attacks with a well timed Q.

NarasimhaFeb 20, 20151 votes

One Q **plus a few autos **

This is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make. If you have to do 'a few autos', then its not burst damage. Talon's damage comes from his abilities (although one is technically an autoattack modifier). He has burst damage because his damage is not reliant on autoattacks, and he is able to output that damage in an instant.

And the video didn't mean much, he had a Sion with him, and one of his targets was pretty low to start. That was more of a cleanup then a full on fight.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 21, 20152 votes

So burst damage can only come from spells? Even though Yi can get his Q + few autos off faster than talon can combo? That's just silly. Nothing about burst damage means it have to come from spells. Nothing at all.

NarasimhaFeb 21, 20151 votes

Talon does his entire combo in less than 1 second. If you can show me ANY video of a Yi killing a target in less than one second, I will be a bit more convinced.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 21, 20151 votes

That is literally impossible. The human reaction time is not that fast.

the Anarchit3chtFeb 20, 20152 votes

http://youtu.be/QKURFKK8838?t=13m43s just for your viewing pleasure

the Anarchit3chtFeb 20, 20151 votes

Hence, for people like you incapable of understanding, the name has been changed to "Marksman"

TTUPhoenixFeb 19, 20159 votes

No mage tanks? What about Malphite Nautilus Sejuani Zac Amumu Chogath Maokai Vladimir ?

g07h4xf00Feb 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No mage tanks? What about ?

All of those except Vladimir are tanks, not mages. isn't even a tank he's a fucking mage! Also you didn't even mention Singed so fuck you

TTUPhoenixFeb 19, 20154 votes

Shockingly, a champion can be both a tank and a mage. Malphite deals a surprising amount of magic damage, since his AP ratios (especially on his ultimate) are quite good. Nautilus and Sejuani don't have the same damage output, but they can deal respectable damage if they build some AP. They're aided in this by items like Rod of Ages, Iceborn Gauntlet, Rylai's Crystal Scepter and Liandry's Torment, which give them tanky stats while also aiding their damage output.

Cho'Gath does a lot of damage while also having a ton of hp to soak up hits. While it's true that Vladimir is primarily a mage, his abilities encourage him to build large amounts of hp, meaning that Vlad can be very tanky, and his inherent sustain makes him quite hard to kill. I'm not as familiar with the other champions I listed, but I know that they are primarily magic damage dealers who benefit from building AP. The reason I didn't mention Singed is because, as with Galio below, I've never played him, and I'm not familiar with his builds or scalings.

l Main RenektonFeb 20, 20151 votes

But there's weakness in tanks like Chogath. He gets kited EXTREMELY easily if you can avoid the knock and losing health upon death can be an issue. While he does high damage, there are a lot of ways to play against him. However, having an Annie flash Tibbers... besides QSS, Banshees and Mikaels, most of which you don't have at low levels anyways, there's no counterplay. That's just one example. She can 5 man stun, dealing insane damage with no problem. She functions at a higher level than Amumu while being effectively a support.

SlaaneshineFeb 21, 20151 votes

And though the Annie example was okay, that's quite the perfect situation which doesn't really ever work on paper. A stun of two-or even three is just as amazing in real context, especially in a mobility fed era. Just the one issue with Annie, while throwing out tons and tons of damage, wouldn't really survive for much longer than 3 seconds against anyone that wasn't stunned and bursted to hell. And a full combo might kill that Malphite or that Maokia, but rarely will it ever (If they aren't behind like two items which they shouldn't be anymore these days), even with Void staff.

There's so many different variables and situations that can happen in this game that people forget that tanks can usually survive most of them with no sweat and some decent teamwork. And with squishy carries taking the scene (again), I think as time goes on tanks will make a return as their mass CC will be needed more and more as mobility creep really eats up this game's balance.

cuddlykitten4Feb 22, 20151 votes

There's a strategy that can beat that champion if you do it right? Ah hhheeeelllllllllll no. If anything can beat it for any reason it is obviously not worth playing. Riot give the people what they want. Games where everyone is either Zed or MasterYi . Every other champ needs deleted because you can form strategies that might beat them if you play right, and that is not what league is about!!!!

BallisticMouseFeb 19, 20151 votes

Vladimir can build AP, while building health and armor/mr. He can be tank instead of flat AP damage. Open your mind a little.

Angry MonsterFeb 19, 20151 votes

adsorbing damage is not being a tank. You lack understanding what it is to be a tank. Your talking about a soak. anyone can be built to soak damage.

BallisticMouseFeb 20, 20151 votes

You didn't read my post then. Vladimir can build AP items that offer Armor/MagicResistance/Health which are the key components of a tank.

Angry MonsterFeb 20, 20151 votes

your still doing it wrong. That is a soak.

BallisticMouseFeb 20, 20152 votes

Define a tank then?

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1842478

Vladimir is covered by this but what is YOUR definition of a tank since only YOURS seems to matter. YOU define tanks for everyone so please, tell us :o

SlaaneshineFeb 20, 20151 votes

Tanks are people who absorb damage and provide three different forms of threat: Mutual, Power, or Technical. Mutual being like Amumu who is going to kill you really slowly but inevitably or snare your entire team for free kills, so you have to deal with him or else. Power like Zac who can do max health damage, who has decent CC and with just one Linadry's Torment can easily kill anyone he can stick on. Kill him and let him absord your damage, or he'll kill you. And Technical, like Nautilus or Sejuani, who can CC the living hell out of you.

BallisticMouseFeb 20, 20151 votes

Not sure why you had to explain for him but no skin off my bones.

Vladimir would fit under Mutual in that then, both Amumu and Vlad could be built full AP or AP with resistances/health also.

Angry MonsterFeb 21, 20151 votes

Cause I don't live the forums.sry I have a life. Have I had any activity since noon?

Stop being a tool.

BallisticMouseFeb 21, 20151 votes

That literally didn't answer anything I said.

You did however avoid an actual reply because you realized i'm right and went to insulting instead.

Angry MonsterFeb 21, 20151 votes

Someone already answer you tool. I answered why i did not respond in under 2 hours. Someone took the time to explain it your shallow self why your definition of tank sucks. You talk about being tanky not being a tank. You build soak. Admit your wrong and get a brain.

Please get a life.

SlaaneshineFeb 21, 20153 votes

You don't build just damage soaking. That doesn't work. And the reason I answered for you was because you went this path and started using harsh words for little reason. It's people like you why Riot really only posts in the fun threads, not in actual discussion. It makes the rest of us wanting to actually have the chance to talk to company itself about design choices sad, instead of just whining and complaining about them.

And also, tanks aren't bad, they simply aren't meta, which to most people that play this game that they are bad. Far from it. Galio, Rammus, Maokia, Braum, Malphite, Nautilus, Sejuani are all really, really strong in the right hands, but they require teamwork to really make shine, which is why you don't see them often in solo que.

BallisticMouseFeb 21, 20151 votes

http://i.imgur.com/8smco7N.png

Take a look my good man.

BallisticMouseFeb 21, 20151 votes

@Masticatorr Thank you.

Angry MonsterFeb 22, 20151 votes

and lee is list as an assasin, but builds tanky? so please

cuddlykitten4Feb 22, 20151 votes

A tank's job in any game is to absorb the damage while the DPS kills things. It's not that league doesn't have tanks as much as people just don't want to play anything except kill machines. I love to play tanks, and have never had an issue properly conducting my tank business. Maybe the problem is you?

BallisticMouseFeb 22, 20151 votes

I don't think you replied to the right person. Not in any of my posts did I say I have had an issue being a tank or anything near that.

RogueWillFeb 19, 20155 votes

I disagree Kalista is Ashe on steroids. Their kits are so similar, the only difference is that ashe kite by slowing you down while kalista kite by jumping around. At least ashe can be caught if 3 people are chasing her, Kal is another story.

NarasimhaFeb 19, 20152 votes

There are a few key differences. Ashe can slow multiple people, and her slow is pretty much permanent. Hell, she's the reason behind mobility creep in the first place. Kalista's vision is longer lasting, but Ashe can provide longer range and can be used to scout. Kalista can kite better, Ashe can chase better. Kalista has a bit more base damage, but Ashe has the natural gold advantage. Kalista is reliant on her buddy to do most of her stuff, Ashe isn't reliant on anyone but pays for it with a lack of damage.

PryotraFeb 19, 20154 votes

As someone who played Ashe quite a bit, you aren't correct on alot of these point.

Ashe cannot chase better
Ashe is not the cause of mobility creep. She is an immobile adc from the original 40.
Kalista isn't as reliant as you are making her out to be. Ashe is more reliant than you make her out to be.
Ashe cannot reliably permaslow multiple people unless filled with gold, to the point that you have to question if that gold would be better placed on another adc. The answer is usually yes.
Kalista's vision can be used to scout.

When you have so much raw mobility, you begin to outperform the specialists at their job. This is why Kassadin was gutted to keep any form of his ult. Really, the only adc that I see matching Kalista is late game vayne. That should speak to the issues that exist.

As to the actual playstyle, Ashe and Kalista are different. But Kalista basically plays alot like vayne.

NarasimhaFeb 19, 20153 votes

As someone who has played Ashe quite a bit as well, I'm fairly certain I am

Ashe cannot chase better

Kalista's chasing relies on her passive. It becomes far to easy for many opponents to just turn around and catch her mid hop. Ashe has it safer and more efficient with her permaslow.

Ashe is not the cause of mobility creep. She is an immobile adc from the original 40.

Ashe is the reason why gapclosers had to be more popular. She is the reason that Xin and Irelia came about.

** Kalista isn't as reliant as you are making her out to be**. Ashe is more reliant than you make her out to be.

Ok, now you're just making stuff up. With her support, Kalista is a bit weaker than most damage oriented adcs, not to mention late carries. Without her support, she's about on par with utility based ones.

Kalista's vision can be used to scout.

Really? I never knew the ghost could see through walls or brush. I guess I missed that change then.

Really, the only adc that I see matching Kalista is late game vayne.

Kog outranges and outdamages. Twich outranges and outdamages. Graves outdamages. Draven outdamages. Jinx outdamages. MF outdamages.

PryotraFeb 19, 20152 votes

So we are entering the relm of straight up lies now?

Twich outranges and outdamages.

Not even. The only thing he really gets on kalista is poison and stealth. His "outrange" is BS, as it only happens during his ult when it becomes a skillshot. This means that he can miss it.

Also, she has an uncapped form of Contaminate. Therefore, he can't out dps her unless he has more items.

MF outdamages.

Not even, unless you are counting bathing in her ult.

Graves outdamages.

I'm starting to beleive you are meaning a pre-requisite "with more gold than kalista" with these. Which, let's be honest, is not how you should be comparing them. Graves does not out DPS Kalista. Not even close. Infact, he is one of the few adc's that has a shorter range than her.

That said, When I made the "only vayne can compare" comment, I mean purely the untouchability while remaining an active high damage champion in a teamfight. Kog doesn't get that unless he is over a wall, which can only realistically happen in a few scenarios. And even then, all it takes is 1 flash and they are on him. Twitch gets focused pretty quickly when his stealth expires. Graves... well, he is pretty easily hopped on, and he only gets 1 dash. DRAAAAAVEN only gets 1 peel. Jinx gets her wall of traps, and if she can get a kill then she gets a massive speed boost to keep up. MF..... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. She turns into an ult bot late game. Poke her with a pillow and she has to stop and inspect her nails. Compared to kick-boxing kangaroo Kalista, every adc kinda falls short outside of vayne late game.

Ok, now you're just making stuff up. With her support, Kalista is a bit weaker than most damage oriented adcs, not to mention late carries. Without her support, she's about on par with utility based ones.

Kalista loses her % damage and ult thing without her support. That's it. That said, if we are to compare her to a true utility carry, Ashe holds that definition. Considering that without a support, kallista is still safer and at the same time capable of dealing incredible damage, wheras Ashe gets better vision

Ashe is the reason why gapclosers had to be more popular. She is the reason that Xin and Irelia came about.

Except of those 2 you mentioned, each have only 1 gap closer fairly short range gap closer on a reletively decent CD. The real cause of mobility creep happened with Lee sin, who got 2 hops and a slow and a displacement. In that same league that just before had released Nocturne, The game's most "mobile" champion outside of Kassadin was Ezreal, who had a "spammable" flash. Yeah. You want to know the next "mobile" champion after Lee? Vayne.

Trust me, the game's mobility didn't start spiking until Lee was released. Then the definition of "mobile" got warped around him.

Kalista's chasing relies on her passive. It becomes far to easy for many opponents to just turn around and catch her mid hop. Ashe has it safer and more efficient with her permaslow.

Except in league of gapclosers, slows are inefficient, while more gap closers counter them. Sorry, unless we are chasing Mordekaiser here (and why exactly are we doing this with a squishy adc?) Kallista will almost always keep up, while ashe will struggle and might have to use her ult just to do the same.

Don't get me wrong. Ashe's perma-slow is good. But it isn't kallista's dash good in today's league of legends. Otherwise the pro's would be spamming her.

Really? I never knew the ghost could see through walls or brush. I guess I missed that change then.

Considering that it roams, yeah, it can check a bush for you, and even around a wall. Seen kalista's on both sides do this with ease. If you struggle to use the scouting capability, then I'm not certain that you understand what you are talking about. It may not be as instant as Ashes, but it certainly lasts longer AND tags enemies that it sees for 4 seconds. So... I'd say it's still a viable scouting tool.

Weeping Ang3lFeb 19, 20152 votes

melee adc? Tryndamere Yasuo XinZhao

SpecterVonBarenFeb 19, 20152 votes

No melee ADC's? MasterYi Yasuo Riven Tryndamere Fiora

Count TobiFeb 20, 20151 votes

Holy crap I was expecting a horribly bandwagon arguement from you, and you didn't do that, even I, Dio am shocked.

ZacceaFeb 19, 20157 votes

Rather than raising the amount of bans again they should consider changing the format entirely. Instead of "Ban, Ban, Ban, Ban, Ban, Ban, proceed with picks" it would look more like "Ban, Ban, pick, Ban, pick, Ban, pick, Ban, pick, Ban, pick". Well that was an awful explanation, but I think you get the idea. As it is now, people think of banning as "I don't like playing against these champions" or "These champions are OP". What it really should be is "Well this champion is a direct counter to the champion I need to play for our team composition so I will ban them to increase our chances of winning." Ya know. Strategy.

ByrnesFeb 19, 20153 votes

Over the years players have asked for the same thing over and over, and Riot has taken the same stance over and over. So I will now share with you what I always share on "there should be more bans" posts so we can lol together.

Bans are not meant for strategy. Bans are meant to be used to remove currently known imba champions. These champions have classically been referred to as "z-class" champions by Riot in discussion posts. On this same note, banning and picking champions cannot take any longer than it does currently. According to Riot, this would cause a mental breakdown of many players and make them leave the League of Legends community. Based on people's responses to the idea that champion select could take longer in exchange for making the game more interesting, Riot is apparently right. People hate champion select as it is, apparently, to even ban out 3 champions each and then having to pick their champions, in ranked.

I for one think known imba champions should automatically be banned from ranked (I'm speaking, of course, to the champions Riot feels are imba on a particular patch, not the ones we think are) and the picking/banning phase should go something along what you/DotA have suggested. I refer to, as always, the Lucian incident. They acknowledged he was OP. They removed him from tournaments at the time of their acknowledgment. They literally release patch notes that say "he is op, but we don't know how to fix it." And all the while he was left enabled in ranked queues. "But then you just ban him yourself" oh wait, yes, that's right only one person is allowed to ban and usually they don't give any F's about what anyone else wants to pick or ban.

2 cents.

Byrnes