I liked Graves when he wasn't a jungler

Unpopular opinion; I like new Graves, I think he's a lot of fun to play, and I think it's cool he can be jungled. I think he's overtuned and needs stronger nerfs, absolutely, but it's cool having more marksmen in the jungle (Kindred, Graves, Quinn, etc)

I liked when he wasn't broken as fuck and the best pick in 3 unique roles

I liked Graves when he wasn't the best champion in three out of five lane positions.

Why does him being able to jungle make you not like him as a Marksman?

He may be a little overtuned but the rework overall was great.

I liked him when his auto attacks didn't have cooldowns.

Too strong even now. They need to nerf him so that he doesn't deal more damage than a melee adc upclose.

I personally like a marksmen being somewhere that isn't the botlane but would still like him to be good in bot aswell

I liked Graves before his rework

I also liked Jungle before ranged took over

yes.

I ALSO liked it when he didn't eat like 30% of your health with his Q because a single pixel of it hit a wall or tower, but that's besides the point.

Simple fix: Take off the knockback from his basic AA's. No more kiting camps :D

The one thing that bothers me is that, he is designed more for someone who doesn't play marksman. attack speed really isn't him if he wants to win a trade he just throws his smoke screen. since he gets some tanky armor resist it's an increase from the 1-2 defensive skills a marksman may have. So when he is being played in game is he really a "marksman" since he has so much in his kit that can be forgiven in a bad position or w.e.

Graves isn't really a marskman anymore

Yes.

[{quoted}](name=Nick Ingram,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2BYrokM6,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-31T23:01:01.072+0000)

What do you guys think?

Me too. When he wasn't in the jungle, he could puff on a heater while he murdered people. Now, he has to chew on a damn toothpick because park rangers n' Smoky the Bear came down on him.

Here's the thing.

I don't mind Graves being a jungler. I really don't. What I do mind is how easy it is for him to jungle.

Kindred jungle requires a lot of finesse. Always moving, kiting mobs, if you sit there and face tank? You die. It's a lot more difficult to pull out. Quinn could jungle a patch or two ago but that as well was hard. Graves jungle, on the other hand, gets immensely buffed stats and can knockback mobs while benefiting from a shitton of life steal. There is zero difficulty to it. I played Graves jungle thinking I'd be smartly kiting mobs when in reality I just face tanked and blew them away with insane power.

Just make it so his true grit doesn't stack on jungle monsters. Let him jungle, sure, but make it difficult to do.

i like that diversity is starting to exist...we have two viable marksman jungle...two viable marksman top laners, a viable marksman mid. its a step in the right direction. however, i dont like playing graves because of the stupid ammo system and having a period of time that you cant shoot in addition to attack speed is annoying as HELL for me, so personally i dont play him.