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Riot- "Wow so many ranged champions, why is nobody playing melee anymore, adc everywhere..."

Critkeeper··79 votes·4,235 views

Community- "This meta is garbage, nobody likes playing games where nobody but bot lane has any agency and everything hinges on it and pretty much nothing else."

Riot- "Why are there so many marksmen everywhere though..."

Community- "LISTEN DUMBASSES THERE ARE SO MANY MARKSMEN BECAUSE THEY BULLY EVERYONE IN LANE 1v1 AND THEN OUTSCALE EVERYTHING BECAUSE THEY ARE SO FUCKING EASY TO DEFEND WITH ALL THESE DUMB SUPPORT BUFFS YOU PUT OUT TO FORCE PEOPLE TO PLAY SUPPORT TO KEEP QUEUE TIMES REASONABLE."

Riot- "Yeah but there are so many marksmen now though..."

Community- "I guess it didn't occur to you that people don't really like playing support, and the amount of buffs you'd have to give to support itemization to encourage enough people to play support to keep queue times reasonable is so damn high it literally makes the game worse. Like LITERALLY worse. Like LITERALLY LITERALLY. How about instead of making the game worse you make it better? How about adding an actual 5th gold stream you bunch of derps."

Riot- "Yeah but how are marksmen supposed to have fun kiting anyone if everyone is playing marksmen? Hrmm... lets add a quest to encourage people to queue up as 5 man melee comps to keep it fun for marksmen, and most importantly the supports that support the marksmen. Can't have our supports feeling like they should play something else now, otherwise the queue times will become bad again. Problem fixed!"

https://i.imgur.com/wzDOL2r.png

47 Comments

SomeStars40 votes

congratulations you too can form imaginary arguments with the business riot

welcome to the club

Critkeeper7 votes

{quoted}

congratulations you too can form imaginary arguments with the business riot

welcome to the club

thanks fam i intend to make you proud

bro0rtega2 votes

Imagine if every post on the gameplay boards was styled like this. Where people create the reply from Riot. How would Riot react this?

SomeStars2 votes

someone on the boards would react for riot or at least in there name

XDDD22 votes

It's actually pretty funny how much these boards hate marksmen vs. how much Reddit hates melee champs and thinks marksmen are fine. But I agree that bot lane needs heavy nerfs in terms of game impact.

Also, what do you specifically mean by adding a 5th gold stream?

Critkeeper14 votes

{quoted}

It's actually pretty funny how much these boards hate marksmen vs. how much Reddit hates melee champs and thinks marksmen are fine. But I agree that bot lane needs heavy nerfs in terms of game impact.

Also, what do you specifically mean by adding a 5th gold stream?

3 lanes + 1 jungle = 4 primary streams of gold

support items don't really equate to a full stream, so supports don't get to play the item power fantasy game that everyone else does. Riot thinks the answer is to make support items cheaper, but that just ends up being abused by mid laners.

they've tried making the component support items trashy in a solo lane, having their passives turn off when you are farming for instance-- but that just makes supports feel worse for buying it and doesn't fix the core issue. The core issue is most people don't want to play supports because they don't have a power fantasy.

Riot is dead set on making sure supports are "different" even if "different" isn't necessarily "better or as good as"

Verxint10 votes

Supports should be like supports in DotA, genuine monsters early game that fall off. The marksman aka lategame carry should not be the primary source of damage in the early game. Right now its really only AP supports that get to do that. The fact that right-clicking you to death at level 1-3 is a viable option for "the lategame hypercarries" is completely disgusting, to be honest.

crippler383 votes

I think that might be hard to do since Supports in DotA2 genuinely have a lot of things that they can be doing at any given time, while Supports in League tend to just be babysitting someone.

I think it'd be cool though if supports were given more impact early on though.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

3 lanes + 1 jungle = 4 primary streams of gold

support items don't really equate to a full stream, so supports don't get to play the item power fantasy game that everyone else does. Riot thinks the answer is to make support items cheaper, but that just ends up being abused by mid laners.

The answer isn't adding a 5th gold stream (that's impossible without reworking the entire map). The answer is simply deleting the fifth player altogether and having people play 4v4. Rework supports so they can function as junglers and then you have ganking junglers and roaming healers.

Firethorn6 votes

What the fuck?... So instead of adding a 5th gold stream we should just delete a role?..

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

What the fuck?... So instead of adding a 5th gold stream we should just delete a role?..

Yes. How would you add another gold stream to the map without completely redoing the map? Redoing the map is not something we need. The entire game is balanced around how many minions come out, the jungle camps and spacing, and a bunch of other really specific shit. I doubt Summoner's Rift will receive any major changes to the map again for many years.

Firethorn4 votes

Let me clarify, I do not think adding another gold stream is that good of an idea. But completely deleting a role is just fucking insane lol. What the hell are supports gonna do? Rework all of them or just delete the champs?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

A) support players make up less than 20% of the league population. Very few people actually enjoy support and it's a giant headache for everyone.

B) My suggestion to this is to add damage to the support kits to allow them to jungle, and then turn them into a kind of roaming healer that is optional for a team. It's better than starving them of XP and gold like we do now.

Teralisan1 votes

...I need to go to sleep...

also, I hate you. Supports are awesome and the best thing in the world is when you walk away as a 5 hp Soraka who just got her ADC a double kill.

And A Real Hiero1 votes

Being 5 hp from brainlessly healing ADC from safety. Not from taking actual damage.

LiteUpSketchers3 votes

So reworking every. single. support. is easier than redesigning a map? Since when?

Lol if you argue with me I ain't gonna respond, because establishing my dominance over stupid people makes me feel bad.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Absolutely it's easier. Have you ever written code before?

You could add bonus damage to monsters to Sona's Q, Lulu's Q, Karma's W, make Soraka's E damage monsters, etc and it would be as easy as changing numbers in a string.

Adding a new lane would be a graphic design nightmare. But yeah, call me stupid when you don't even acknowledge that there are completely separate teams that work on these projects with completely different skills.

Or, how about this: how many times has the map been revamped since the game started compared to how many times a champion has been reworked? We got six reworks with the mage update, plus six smaller updates. That's 12 reworks in one patch.

Salron2 votes

Support only have their items for gold income Everyone else has to the effort in to CS/kill monsters

It's only logical that the gold source with the least effort required would get the least amount If I could play support and earn the same amount of gold as a solo lane without the effort of CSing then why would I ever play anything other than support?

Explain how supports can have comparable income to everyone else while maintaining anywhere near as much effort put in

Critkeeper4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t8THXil4,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2017-10-03T11:45:45.341+0000)

Support only have their items for gold income Everyone else has to the effort in to CS/kill monsters

It's only logical that the gold source with the least effort required would get the least amount If I could play support and earn the same amount of gold as a solo lane without the effort of CSing then why would I ever play anything other than support?

Explain how supports can have comparable income to everyone else while maintaining anywhere near as much effort put in

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/eRcEBc9x-riot-you-should-add-minion-bounty-sharing-and-here-is-a-coherent-argument-about-why

Salron3 votes

How does that fix the problem I stated?

The support is just being rewarded with free gold for the sole efforts of the person CSing, and heavily inflates the amount of gold available in the game which opens entirely new problems

For one, the actually discourages roaming because every second you don't spend in a lane is a large sum of gold that is lost for the support

Secondly, if you're running a champion like Brand or Vel'koz support, you effectively have a second midlaner as they can just build full damage with their gold income

Free gold just for your ally CSing properly is a flawed concept

Saianna1 votes

but that just ends up being abused by mid laners.

Can you blame them tho?

Midlaners have their items either nerfed, reworked or they themselves get reworked into supports...

Alex h87211 votes

He means support having some form of gold income besides the support item, that wouldn't take away from their lane partner's gold. Certainly an interesting concept, but the meta of the duo-lane developed around the map not having enough resources for 5 players to get full gold income, as the best way to play the map, so adding a fifth gold income that is comparable to lane and jg would completely change up how the game is played.

BUT Riot would have to be very careful about how this new gold source is implemented, because in concept it could easily be abused, for example the team could play with a support champ just like normal who doesnt need the gold as much, and funnel 2 gold sources into their adc/mid etc to hit their item spikes twice as fast.

lojician1 votes

Ranged champions are better at high elo. Darius is a good champion at low elo. I'll let you fill in the blanks.

Mokiller56 votes

Not gonna lie, as a MasterYi main. The marksmen meta doesn't really bother me...... infact the opposite, more squishy adcs = easier to kill for Master yis

However I will say this, the overpowered supports are the real problem for me. ADC with a support is difficult to kill, however if I find an adc solo splitpushing like an idiot because he went 10/0 in lane and thinks he can solo carry, well..... That bitch is dead SON!!!. Even with my underfed Master yi, its super easy to kill a fed ADC. MasterYi GET DUNKED!

junglerboy165 votes

I don't find that to be entirely true.

Granted, I'm playing normals not high tier ranked so it's likely different there, but I was able to just hard carry a game solo as Malzahar mid by shutting down my lane opponent hard and then even with the enemy team having a fed Draven and Warwick, got easy team fight wins and pushed mid right into the nexus.

I get that this is probably unusual, but saying only bot lane has agency when I was able to turn a game around on my own from an 0/1/0 start against a 5/2 Draven and 9/0 Warwick seems a little exaggerated. But hey, it's just my one off occasion for success.

Malothere4 votes

They could reduce duo experience and increase the gold gen from support items.

Fairyfleur4 votes

Please don't lower duo experience; it already feels horrible being 2-6 levels behind your solo laners. Gold generation on support items is fine, especially with item 3301 existing.

Malothere1 votes

They could reduce experience across the board but that might have some adverse effects on other lanes/jungle. Most of the boards wants longer games anyway and i don't really see a huge problem with people leveling up slower but getting more gold through duo laning.

LordGeovanni5 votes

this does nothing but make snowballs harder though.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

They could reduce duo experience and increase the gold gen from support items.

reducing duo experience would make bot lane mages or melee champions practically impossible.

one of the reasons why marksmen are thrown into a duo lane with supports is because theyre less xp dependent than other champion types.

instead of scaling off gold and xp like other champions, they mostly just scale off gold and much less off xp.

Malothere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t8THXil4,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-10-03T04:31:45.064+0000)

reducing duo experience would make bot lane mages or melee champions practically impossible.

one of the reasons why marksmen are thrown into a duo lane with supports is because theyre less xp dependent than other champion types.

instead of scaling off gold and xp like other champions, they mostly just scale off gold and much less off xp.

They could make it so the "support" gets full gold contribution from the last hits the carry gets. It would be incentive for other rolls to go into that lane but they wouldnt be getting the same xp as they would if they went in a solo lane.

Maszii2 votes

{quoted}

They could reduce duo experience and increase the gold gen from support items.

So at level 6 in mid you are level 4 bot :D? Assassin meta incomming

LordGeovanni4 votes

The problem with the support buffs is not that support buffs are too strong but that marksmen are balanced to function without support so when support gets stronger marksmen (i dont see anyone one else effected like them) become super busted

Rebonack3 votes

Still say Dominion had the right idea.

Everyone got roughly the same gold stream, save for the bottom laner. They got extra gold from last-hitting to help them fend off the constant ganks. Everyone got the same supply of XP, so certain classes didn't need to be under/overtuned because of level differentials. Minions gave no XP at all, all XP came from the ticker. Everyone got their items. Everyone got to feel powerful. Everyone was on more or less equal footing. Everyone always had objectives to contest and things to do.

Because the laning phase wasn't strictly a thing all of these balance nightmares caused by the laning phase simply weren't a problem. A Marksmen might be good at cowering behind minions and taking pot-shots at people with someone else to back them up, but they're not going to do quite so well trying to defend an objective against a beefy dude looking to ruin their day.

The problem isn't strictly 'gold sources'. That's a symptom. It's the whole concept of a laning phase to begin with. The laning phase is the root of most of this game's balance issues. If Rift were a team game (see: Dominion), rather than a game where you happen to be on a team, then the main consideration would be 'do our champions work well together?' rather than 'can this pick survive 15 minutes laning against Pantheon?'

Elkington VI2 votes

Agreed. Marksmen by themselves aren't that strong imo. Take away the laning phase and they're arguably one of the weakest classes. Because we no longer have any non-laning centric modes, everyone only looks at champion balance from a laning phase perspective. It's inevitable really.

Rebonack3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Elkington VI,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t8THXil4,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-10-03T23:41:59.855+0000)

Agreed. Marksmen by themselves aren't that strong imo. Take away the laning phase and they're arguably one of the weakest classes. Because we no longer have any non-laning centric modes, everyone only looks at champion balance from a laning phase perspective. It's inevitable really.

I would love it if Towers got taken down Dominion-style. Channel on them rather than chipping away with auto-attacks. That way everyone would be equally adept at taking the game's primary objectives and maybe then Marksmen could be balanced around doing something more interesting?

Elkington VI1 votes

This would be a great change, but Riot will never do it. As for making marksmen more interesting, that's a tough one. I find Quinn to be one of the more interesting ones, as she doesn't really play like any of the others. She thrives in non-laning environments, where most marksmen struggle. I think they all should have a niche like she does, rather than who does the biggest numbers the most reliably, which is the category I find most of them tend to fall into.

Red Wreckage1 votes

Like 80% of champs picked in pro games are ranged/have 2+ ranged abilities. rest is dumb meatshield+cc heavy tanks

Celestial Lion124 votes

wow its almost like in pro play poke before the engage is an important factor

Bańg1 votes

Or it could be because they pick the best of the best in order to win 🤔

Slice n Dice em1 votes

And in the end Riot will show make a stat to counter every ones argument, that see THIS MUCH %age of people play melee champs/non meta picks in bot lane. Thus no need to fix bot lane.

Dextix LT1 votes

Considering Riot, i would not be surprised if this kind of conversation actually happened.

Cowseed1 votes

LISTEN DUMBASSES THERE ARE SO MANY MARKSMEN BECAUSE THEY BULLY EVERYONE IN LANE 1v1

Wut? Like literally literally wut?!

i cant move wtf1 votes

I think there's a good point in all of this. The support role should be a role that people want to play. Maybe Riot should rethink how they design low-gold support champions that are more interesting than the ones wehave now.

Mandalorian 1171 votes

Remeber the adc2017 stuff? When people started using ziggs and twisted fate bot because adcs were “useless”? I do.

HollowMimic1 votes

This is actually pretty funny.

Personally though, I did enjoy playing as support before the changes (mostly wardens to be honest; now changed to mostly enchanters obviously).

RunninInThe90s1 votes

Your comment about creating a 5th gold stream gave me an idea:

Give starting support items a passive that made gold earned from killing minions 0, but instead gave you like 1gp/10s for every ward you had out, and have that stack with the passive gold per 10 the items already have. It would encourage warding, while (hopefully) not being able to be abused by other roles?

I'm just a pleb though. No idea if vision, which is already a nice bonus from warding, really needs gold income attached to it.

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