The Vision Game - A New Ward

Pika310·Aug 28, 2014·7 votes·2,672 views

Whilst working on a presentation for a League panel I'm running at an anime convention this weekend, I noticed a gap in the vision items. The trio of trinkets cover the three primary colors, whilst only 2 wards exist covering just as many of the three main secondary colors.

The proposed idea: A new ward, orange in color, for reference I'll call it the Sustain Ward. An invisible ward that gives basic sight of the surrounding area for up to 10 minutes or until destroyed(4 HP). Each player can only carry up to 2 Sustain Wards and can only have 1 active at a time. Cost: 150 gold

Looking for comments, suggestions and opinions.

31 Comments

SteelflameAug 28, 20149 votes

that sort of is the opposite of the Clairvoyance trinket though...

What would make a lot more sense would be a ward that has an incredible cast range, but only last for a short duration. Or, if not a short duration, it should be visible to the enemy team and destroyable, like a pink, but with 1 hp, but at a normal wards lifespan.

This would make it a ton more like the way the other two work, with green wards matching trinket wards, pinks matching sweeper's zone of vision denial, and the new "Scout" ward being good for long range checks, but even easier to KO. Also, your new ward just flat out is better than a normal ward. No disadvantage at all, except the fact you can only place one... but that is WAY more than worth the price of the ward's value. All lanes buy one, 10 minutes of vision from one direction.

Iron SpatulaAug 28, 20146 votes

A completely different idea...

The ward is visible, has 5hp, and the range of a green ward. Rather than granting vision itself, every time time an enemy champion is in its range it marks the affected champion. Marked champions are visible for 2-3 seconds after leaving the ward's range (and visible while in it). Note: Enemy champions can in no way, see the mark. This would be AWESOME because you could hide them in bushes people regularly walk by and not into. Same placement and inventory restrictions as a pink (1 on ground, 2 in inventory).

Thunder DreamssAug 29, 20146 votes

I'd like to second the completely different idea idea. A 10 minute ward is just a regular ward that last longer. Better to have a new type of ward that behaves differently. My personal preference would be the orange "Shadow Ward."

Shadow Ward (100g) Shadow Ward is invisible, lasts 120 (or 60?) seconds, and is limited to 1 out per player. All area within the Shadow Ward's area of effect cannot be granted vision by the enemies Stealth Wards nor lane minions. Other sources of vision such a champions, champion abilities, turrets, pink wards, and Clarity/Scrying Orb function normally.

Blinding Lens (475g upgrade to Sweeping Lens) In addition to the normal effect of the Sweeping Lens the Blinding Lens also paces a Shadow Ward at target location when activated.

The Shadow Ward would provide a new angle in the struggle for vision control. It provides a strong bonus to counter enemy Steal Wards, such as to protect a Dragon or Baron from being stolen or to deny vision to a pushing lane. The trade off, of course, is that a team focusing on fielding Shadow Wards pays more gold per minute to keep them out and needs to keep inventory free and/or focus on the Sweeping Lens/Blinding Lens to keep their vision denial up. This opportunity cost means a team focusing on vision denial will have less Sight Wards and therefor will be giving up their own vision as well.

A team fighting against Shadow Wards would benefit from finding creative warding locations to avoid wasting Stealth Wards on a dead spot. For example you may not be able to see Dragon but you can ward up and down river to see if anyone enters the Dragon pit area. When contesting objectives shrouded by Shadow Wards the Scrying Orb might finally come into it's own as a strong method of gaining vision despite the enemies best efforts.

Also worth keeping in mind that just as Stealth Wards can be used to both defend and steal objectives Shadow Wards would be similar. A team taking Dragon could deny vision and make any steal riskier and harder with a well placed Shadow Ward. By the same token a team trying to steal Dragon could hide themselves and then better ambush the team doing Dragon to get the lizard and/or some kills.

edit: updated Shadow Ward concept and improved formatting.

Mindworm JimAug 29, 20141 votes

Oooooooooo. Yes. I like this one a lot. You could actually just use it like Smokescreen. Enemies outside of its radius cannot draw LOS to anything within (or on the other side of) the radius. So landing a blue trinket, Clairvoyance inside the area lights it up nicely.

Oh, hmm. You'd have to make it suppress green wards too. I guess since it doesn't give vision itself that'd be okay.

LapisonAug 29, 20142 votes

Just for me, at least, there are a few drawbacks to this idea.

Let's say your team does dragon and your support drops a shadow ward. If I'm looking at my mini map and I see some part of the map suddenly go dark, I'm pretty sure I know a shadow ward's been dropped in the area. It doesn't have the same stealth factor of an actual stealth ward; it's essentially a blatant giveaway that something's going on in that area.
What about abilities that grant sight of an enemy if the ability hits? Lee Sin's Q and E immediately come to mind, as does maybe Cait W or TF ult; should I not be able to see them when they drop a Shadow Ward?
I assume that there's still a limit on the amount of wards you can place; however, let's say a team is surprisingly competent and all buy Shadow Wards. They then place the wards all around your base and start sieging your turrets. You're essentially fighting blind, with no way to counter engage over the wall of your base. I'd find that particularly frustrating.

However, I can see this used to deny Dragon/Baron steals, which is a REALLY cool idea. It acts a lot like a security blanket though; I think I'd rather play with the risk of a steal rather than shutting out some of the most exciting moments for myself in League. Great idea!

Thunder DreamssAug 29, 20141 votes

Some of your concerns are easily addressed.

Let's say your team does dragon and your support drops a shadow ward. If I'm looking at my mini map and I see some part of the map suddenly go dark, I'm pretty sure I know a shadow ward's been dropped in the area.

Same is true now if I use a pink or red trinket to clear wards around Dragon. This would just offer another anti-ward tool with it's own strengths and weaknesses. Arguably it would be stronger than a red trinket since it not only shuts down wards now but ongoing into the future. Could be red gets an extra upgrade to drop one of these in addition to the normal effect.

What about abilities that grant sight of an enemy if the ability hits?

(champions not effected)

So champion abilities would work normally, as would turrets and pink wards. My proposed Shadow Ward would only effect (non-pet) minions and Stealth Wards.

They then place the wards all around your base and start sieging your turrets.

This is a good point and would need some consideration. The reverse is true of course, both teams can plant their Shadow Wards and both siege and anti-seige would be blind. I'd assume a Shadow Ward limit of 1 per person.

To maintain a blinding siege/defense you'd need at least 2 people with the free inventory slot or possible new upgraded red. That's allot of investment away from normal wards so a team doing this would themselves have limited vision. I think the blind myself to blind my foe thing would work out but I also think it would take some serious testing to be certain. It would be a huge change, to be sure.

Thank you for your kind consideration.

Emmy Cha0sAug 29, 20142 votes

In my opinion, the Shadow Ward seems too reminiscent of Vision Wards prior to the preseason vision changes when they used to be invisible. You don't know it's there, drop normal wards without realizing they will go to waste and eventually have to drop your own Shadow/Vision or Sweep the area to deal with it. Have to say of the ideas thus far, this is the only one I don't like.

kiloechoespAug 29, 20141 votes

I really like this idea. However I feel it might even be too weak. It'll be too obvious if a Shadow Ward has been placed and the vision suddenly disappears. Then, all your opponents have to do is sweep the area and take out your ward. 30 gp, free. It also has less health than a pink, and does nothing except block out green wards. Oooo look! my ward doesn't cover that area in the fog! free gp

Also, red trinket gets buffed. No one's going to get any other trinket. More wards = more rewarding. Finally the siege problem you have, is that the orange wards gives a HUGE advantage to the defenders. With an orange ward placed near your tower, the minions can't see if there's anyone right behind the tower, forcing champions to walk into tower range to see if anyone's there.

I suppose you can buff it by making it more sneaky too. It looks like a green ward when dropped, and when stealthed it'll be orange. then theres a small aoe where if champions walk through it, they can't be seen by green wards. Now this doesn't really work on minions(because it's a small aoe) but they wouldn't be able to see you either.

Now the final issue with that idea is, how big should the aoe be? Make it too big and people will just hide in it while minions push, and ambush champions when they walk to the tower.

So, the best way is to make a compromise. this compromise also has a lot of issues(defender's advantage, red trinkets more op) but, it doesn't make the orange ward a HUGE target.

**Basically with green wards, orange wards removes vision without turning it into a fog of war. So, you'd still think there's no one there and think it was an innocuous green ward. The weakness is ofc the aoe. It'll have to be smaller than a green ward's vision. With minions however, the orange ward removes their vision and turns it into fog of war. This makes it so that players WILL know that there's an orange ward there. So, no one waiting in a lane will "appear" out of nowhere as minions passed that location. **

Dom1nati0nAug 28, 20144 votes

The purpose of the vision changes was to ensure that not only is the team actively aware of vision being a tactical choice and strategy but making it live action. Keeping vision in an area where the enemy doesn't want you to should be a constant struggle for power. 10 minute wards are impractical and unfortunately I don't see the point. If the idea was anything but having a ward that lasts way too long I might get behind it. So put some more thought into it because wards could use more mechanics. And I'd get behind something like that.

Pika310Aug 28, 20142 votes

Of course vision should always be a struggle, hence the existence of red trinkets. It's not like I suggested something indestructible, but if the enemy isn't vigilant in their own sweeping, this is meant to punish them for their leniency.

I don't see any problem with a more expensive ward with more restrictions having a longer duration. You don't seem to know that Vision Wards don't even have a time limit and frankly I think 10 minutes may be too short, but that's how long shrooms last and in a 30-minute game that would be 1/3 of the game-time.

Dom1nati0nAug 28, 20143 votes

Shrooms are a mechanic completely unique to one champion. Vision is not. Pinks are allowed to last so long because people take them out constantly throughout games. No pink really lasts that long. You just hope it lasts longer than 3 minutes. And that you may be able to make some money off of it. 10 minutes is surely too long. And doesn't synergize well with the current vision meta. Longer wards is just a lack of creativity. Come up with something stronger than that.

Emmy Cha0sAug 28, 20142 votes

That's twice you've said the same thing and told him to put in more thought. The point of this thread is to take pieces of thoughts from multiple ideas and put them together to make a colorful collaboration. It'll be more constructive to come up with your own thing to add than to keep repeating to somebody else that they need to think longer.

Dom1nati0nAug 28, 20144 votes

You're absolutely right. So if you're going to call is a sustain ward give it 5 points of health that regenerate when it hasn't been hit in X amount of seconds.

LapisonAug 29, 20141 votes

Regenerating health might screw over slow auto attackers. If the ward gets found by a champ like Karthus or something, they can't really do much to it. At least Karthus can kill a green ward if he finds it; I don't believe the sweeper would reveal long enough for five hits.

So if I lane against Karthus and I plant a Sustain Ward, he can't do anything about it until the jungler comes to help. The gank becomes oriented towards killing the ward, and that's not too fun in my opinion.

Emmy Cha0sAug 29, 20141 votes

Yes, but that's the idea. The enemy player invested more gold and are restricted to having only a single one active to make it more difficult to deal with. If you know it's there and want to gank for more than just vision control, you can choose any of multiple different routes into lane and completely play around it.

Dom1nati0nAug 29, 20141 votes

Well I didn't designate whether or not the ward would be visible. It could simply be a visible ward. And the regen timer shouldn't be so much to disallow champions from taking it. But allow an easier interrupt for places like bottom lane. Where ward control is important.

Emmy Cha0sAug 28, 20144 votes

It's a good base, I like it. I see a chance for some counter-play here.

I would rename it to Safety Ward and give it the following passive: when damage is dealt to this ward, the attacker takes 25 + 10x that champion's level in true damage.

Thus, when a player uses a Sweeper or places a Vision Ward and happen across it, they will need to use their own judgment as to whether the backlash of taking 4 tics of damage is worth denying sight to the enemy. It's not a trap like a shroom or a box meant to take you by surprise, but a deterrent to keep you from destroying it. It's completely that own player's decision.

SteelflameAug 28, 20143 votes

Way too much cost on vision denial. Way too much. That is 140 damage at level 1. Talk about a deleted hp bar. At level 18 that would be a 745 damage ward... More than most ults. Place 2-3 on Baron, laugh as you have now denied the baron attempt unless they do it completely visible.

Emmy Cha0sAug 28, 20143 votes

The actual amount of damage is definitely something that's debatable, it needs to be low enough to not be overly stifling for a tank or bruiser to consider the cost, but also high enough that there is a drawback to destroying it. Since this is a self-imposed drawback the destroyer chooses to take, that shifts the margin of damage slightly higher. The reason I suggested damage per each hit, a lone player that finds one by them-self is going to be less likely to want to take the full damage alone, but if a group of 3 or 4 are traveling together and happen across one, they would be more willing to split the amount between each other and quickly sustain it off with spells and lifesteal. I made those example numbers based on these factors.

As for dropping multiples into Baron, this is a 2-way road and the enemy team in a close match is just as likely to have the same amount sitting inside themselves.

I did overlook one thing, it would probably need its cost increased further. I would suggest: Cost 200 gold

redniwediSAug 28, 20142 votes

I don't think damage would be the best cost, considering your point. If the player who destroyed the ward is revealed for 5-10 seconds after the final hit or something else that grants the team who placed the ward some utility instead this might be a fair idea.

Dom1nati0nAug 28, 20142 votes

That's an interesting concept. I like that alot.

Mindworm JimAug 28, 20143 votes

I have always thought that some sort of "Sentinel Ward" would be cool. A ward that either defends itself or zaps enemy wards that are placed near it.

soylent shipmentAug 28, 20141 votes

Dude good idea, you should post it up on the boards ad get more attention.

LapisonAug 29, 20143 votes

Zapping enemy wards makes the Sentinel Ward basically a vision ward that can kill stuff on its own? That sounds pretty OP and it'd basically phase out the pink if it were implemented.

Defending itself is a lot like the "safety" ward mentioned above by Emmy, I feel.

LapisonAug 28, 20144 votes

I really like the idea of an orange ward (this makes me very happy, because rainbows).

(Also, pardon me for just shooting ideas down, but I think I'm better at that... Sorry :( )

One of the annoying things about this is that this requires people to keep a possible second slot open to allow the placing of an orange ward. While it's not too clunky, it is annoying to want to place a ward and find that you can't buy it because late game builds. Also, if you wanted to hold two, that extra ward is taking up a valuable spot that could be put towards another item.

I'm also not so sure about the proposed Sustain Ward properties, or any of the other alternatives.

For Pika's sustain ward, a Sweeper Trinket still counters it pretty handily; it'd do well to place this Sustain Ward near high priority objectives (i.e. Baron, Dragon), but any team who uses a sweeper in its area will probably take it out. What incentive does it give to the individual to not buy two Stealth Wards and instead buy a sustain? You get an extra four minutes of sight, true, but when it gets killed, you can just place another Stealth Ward instead of a Sustain. Ultimately, I'd rather have more Stealth Wards that I can place more frequently to move around rather than a Sustain Ward that I must keep stationary.

I also don't like the "safety passive" that Emmy mentioned, mostly because it's very easy to wobble between "too punishing" and "not punishing enough". There might be a "sweet spot", but it'd be incredibly hard to find; also, what would happen with life steal? In an implausible case, an ADC might actually be able to gain health from finding it, which would negate the consideration of the passive. Even in more plausible cases, one could easily negate the damage from a Safety Ward simply by finding some poor wraith and leeching away its health. Not to mention the deletion of health bars early game (140 damage? That chunks HARD :( )

A "blue trinket" type ward like Steelflame mentioned that has a large cast range could just as easily be emulated by the blue trinket; if I wanted to check Dragon, I'd just buy the blue trinket and save myself the gold. It'd only be seriously considered by supports and maybe junglers and ADCs (if they even feel like parting with their hard-earned gold :P ). Not like vision wards are really bought anyway, but that’s a concern that goes more into player mentality.

A “marking ward” like Iron Spatula mentioned is essentially like a vision ward. The benefit of marking champions that walk by is minimal; if you note the direction that an enemy is going, you can probably guess where they’re going as well. See Lee Sin on a pink going towards bot? Chances are he’s ganking bot. Fizz just showed at upper river and your blue is up? He might be going for a steal. So why not just buy the vision ward instead and save yourself 50 gold?

Despite all my hating (I’M SORRY I’M SORRY), it’d be really really cool to see a new ward make its debut. What I think would be cool would be some type of “pet ward” (PORO WARD PLS RITO) that a user would be able to control remotely for about ten seconds or so, much like a Tibbers, LB mirror image or an Ori ball. There’d be problems with early game jungles (Think Lee Sin is doing my red? Lemme just send my poro to scout it out) and also making chases much easier (GO PORO FIND THEM), but it’d be super cool, and also give the player a more active type of input.

Thanks for reading! I like this discussion :)

PikmintsAug 29, 20142 votes

For your first concern about item slots, that's an entirely viable concern however that similar limitation is applied to all wards purchased later in the game.

I feel vaguely similar towards Pika's sustain ward. They would likely be placed around coke points and would either be granting (IMO) too much vision for the amount of gold spent, or be consistently knocked out. I also see this as a purchase limited to supports as an amount of gold like that would either be better for most other roles put into an item or even for the more predictable nature of having purchased 2 stealth wards. On top of those, a character that doesn't have much attack speed could conceivably sweep a sustain ward and not be able to attack it enough times to destroy it. If this item were to be implemented, I'd give it 2 health (enough to survive someone getting a quick shot off when they see you place it), make it cost 125 (to make it more cost appealing than 2 stealth wards that also come with the benefit of being replaced or saving half of the purchased vision for a later time), and reduce it's duration to 6 minutes (2x that of a stealth ward, but you're less likely to need it for that long at a single location lest it be a high-traffic [often sweeped] area).

I have a good few things regarding the safety ward that I would like to adjust myself. It's been said already that the damage originally thought up was too much, and also how tuning it down could easily make the damage negligible. I feel that each ward should have not have too many defense mechanisms. Vision wards last long if placed in areas with low traffic and take an extra second to kill if seen, stealth ward have stealth, so giving this ward stealth, retaliation damage, and a 10 minute life makes this the "Stacking Black Cleaver" of wards. A safety ward of my design would instead not have stealth, have the same health as a stealth ward, perhaps 5 minute duration max, and it would deal true damage to it's attacker equal to half the remaining time it has left. This iteration would provide some unique gameplay choices as you are able to see the ward as well as how long it has left, but you can choose to let it expire in time or take minor damage to clear it early and get the gold from it. I know my iteration of this ward could likely be further improved upon, I just think the original idea for this ward is too stacked.

I also agree that the mechanics of the marking ward are a little unnecessary as it's too close to a vision ward while having a vague hint of blue trinket in there as it could mark enemies over walls because they are marked by being "in range" and not "in it's line of sight". I'm not sure if I just read a little too closely the exact words used to describe this ward idea, but a ward that can see over walls would need to be something a little more odd and fancy. An example of a ward that would be able to see through walls would need to be something like "is visible, has 3 health, the sight radius of a stealth ward, expires in 3 minutes, and goes into stasis for 1.5 seconds after taking damage" the unique stasis feature preventing it from being quickly ended upon reveal. I don't think a ward that could see through walls would be an easy one to balance, so don't be too harsh regarding this alternative.

The mobile ward that Lapison mentioned is interesting, but would also need a little something additional to make it fair. First, this ward would need to be visible for at least some time, a minimum of having it be visible while moving. Having it be visible while moving provides unique counterplay to an ally tossing one of these out while your opponents are getting dragon/baron and them not being any the wiser lest they constantly use their sweeping lenses or place a vision ward at the objective they are about to secure expecting a future ward coming in before they get it. Also, it would ideally last more than only that 10 seconds otherwise it'd have to be cheap as dirt and possibly outclassed by blue trinket still.

I also like this discussion :3 (out of characters)

Willahelm FulberAug 29, 20142 votes

The problem with the orange ward is that it's: Invisible, like a trinket or sightstone ward lasts longer than a trinket or sightstone ward and has more HP than a trinket or sightstone ward

The problem with this is it's literally a case of "anything you can do, i can do better!" which should only exist in mirror matches when one champion has an item lead on the other. Every champion should be viable in ranked, even if someone with similar skills is available.

Emmy Cha0sAug 29, 20142 votes

Yet as a trade-off it's double the cost, you can only place one and carry 2. The things it can't do are be in 3 places at once or be spammed across the map as they're Sweeped away, but Sight Wards can.

LapisonAug 29, 20142 votes

That's a reasonable concern: that the orange ward is completely OP and would completely override the green and yellow wards.

However, one of the main drawbacks to the orange Ward is the fact that you can only have one active at a time. If I'm playing support, do I want 3 green wards to cover the entire lane? Or would I take only one orange ward and pray the jungler doesn't take another route? It offers a nice choice between more area or more time. Personally, I'd prefer using three wards in lane and using the orange ward at something I want vision of constantly, like Dragon or Baron.

Willahelm FulberAug 29, 20141 votes

Of course, by that argument pink wards are cheaper to replace (50 less gold, same limits), are tougher, and more useful. Also they last longer.