The Role of melee carries

Chromatic Eagle·Jan 4, 2015·2 votes·1,047 views

Just for the record, melee carries are fighters who focus more on offense and auto hits right? Meaning they also prefer attack speed like ADCs right? So then who is classified as such? Fiora, Yi, Tryndamere, and Yasuo are examples. Couldn't Zed, Riven, Jax, or Xin Zhao count as that? The only competitive ones I see are Zed and probably Yasuo. Do these types of champions have a role in the game, or should they be remade into something else?

It's hard to put into words, but Fiora is getting a rework, while Trynd and Yas have been getting complaints about their crit.

21 Comments

Done25Jan 4, 20155 votes

Yes, they are Fighters. Fighters basically come in three "flavors". Carry - Yi, Fiora, Tyrndamere. Fighter - Warwick, Trundle, Vi. Bruiser - Mundo, Garen.

Carry Fighters have a harder focus on attack speed for their auto attacks, while Bruiser types tend to prefer huge amounts of raw AD to power their abilities. (Fighters tend to find a mix between the two of them.)

Though they can easily shift up and down the slider depending on how they're built.

(Ex. Carry Xin with a Ghostblade vs Fighter Xin with a Black Cleaver vs Bruiser Xin with an Omen.)

KMannnnn1Jan 4, 20152 votes

To me, the classification has always been more about how many damage items they would normally build. A bruiser will generally build one damage item then tank out, a fighter will have a mix of damage and defense depending on the game, and a carry will pretty much build only offense and maybe a GA or Banshee's in the mid-late game.

Also, mundo is classified as a fighter, but if we're being honest, he's really just a super-tank, and never really needs to buy any damage items at all to be effective.

junglerboy16Jan 4, 20153 votes

About Mundo, the only reason he is listed as a fighter rather than a tank primarily, is that all of his abilities are damaging rather than CC oriented (and don't say cleaver, because almost every fighter has a slow). Only his ult and passive are truly "tank" abilities, since his Cleavers are primarily damage, his Burning agony is for damage and tenacity, and masochism is a straight up AD steroid.

Done25Jan 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

To me, the classification has always been more about how many damage items they would normally build. A bruiser will generally build one damage item then tank out, a fighter will have a mix of damage and defense depending on the game, and a carry will pretty much build only offense and maybe a GA or Banshee's in the mid-late game.

Also, mundo is classified as a fighter, but if we're being honest, he's really just a super-tank, and never really needs to buy any damage items at all to be effective.

You're kind of right. It's really all about how their damage window works. Yi is really powerful for a short duration while he has Highlander and Wuju up and running. Mundo deals his max DPS so long as he has the HP to sustain Burning Agony and Masochism (Which can easily be kept up 100% of the time with some CDR.).

Therefor Yi will want his fighting window to be for as long as Wuju/Highlander lasts. Mundo however is under no such restriction, and will continue to hurt for as long as the fight goes on.

Chromatic EagleJan 4, 20151 votes

So how do you feel about the viability of the carries? Fiora is getting a rework, Yi sees more play in low ranks, and I wouldn't be surprised if people wanted Tryndamere reworked as well.

SookoJan 4, 20153 votes

Yi is kind of easy to counter, except at low elo where all CC is blown on Garen #PentakilledByYi because of that.

Fiora used to be considered quite strong to carry solo queue before the nerfs, and still does carry more than decently assuming no anti-AA champion goes top.

Tryndamere... sigh... depends on how lucky you are and how many early crits you can pull off. If you do get a few, he becomes unstoppable.

junglerboy16Jan 4, 20154 votes

Fiora needs a rework, not because she is unviable, but because her kit is super binary (she either feeds hard or solo carries from 10 minutes on).

Yi is not actually half bad. He has a decent level of counterability, which is good and healthy for gameplay, while having decent damage. Basically, it is your own fault if Yi gets ahead. Yi is still viable in higher elo (just look at Cowsep) he just requires better coordination to use well up there I guess.

Tryndamere would be a solid fighter except that his core mechanic aside from his ult is based on the most unstable and least balance able thing in this game. Yes he needs a rework, not a huge one, but some other way to give him a fury based damage steroid other than crit (heck, they could just make it so that his auto attacks deal % increased damage based on fury level and AP Trynd could become a real thing)

Chromatic EagleJan 4, 20151 votes

How do you feel about Yasuo then?

junglerboy16Jan 4, 20152 votes

I would like it best if they reverted his kit to the way it was when released (like bonus flow generation from dashing if you rank up wind wall and his original high strength shield) and then completely removed the double crit from his passive. If they wanted to keep double crit in his kit as a function, then maybe they could make it so his Q can crit, but that is it. Double crit is the most boring part of his kit, but oddly enough, even though it is totally toxic and unfair in most matches, they decided to nerf away the cool self interactions in his kit in favor of keeping a gimmicky steroid. Having a damage steroid is fine, and when it ultimately scales up to be consistent (after two items, his crit stops being random because it happens every AA), it isn't the worst, but ideally, they should give him a more controllable damage steroid like what Yi's Wuju style does (% increased bonus AD or something of the sort).

NarasimhaJan 4, 20152 votes

The issue with that, is that you'd then have to take Yasuo in for a decent rework. All melee carries have some form of a strong steroid. Double crit on just Q isn't enough, you'd have to either compensate him heavily on the rest of his kit, or he'd need a full flat out rework.

junglerboy16Jan 4, 20152 votes

They probably would have to rework it, and I am fine if it would give back the cooler side of his original kit. I also did say that they should give him some other steroid as a passive effect, not just make the Q double crit.

Done25Jan 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t1eBltUQ,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2015-01-04T20:37:49.297+0000)

How do you feel about Yasuo then?

I think Yas is a complete MESS. Mostly thanks to his double crit passive which makes his power curve all kinds of messed up. (Just imagine if Master Yi got double AD from items.)

I think what they could do are a few things to stabilize his power.

He can only activate R on champions who have been affected by his 3rd Q. Remove the toxic interactions with people like Rek'Sai or Kalista who let him ult FAR easier than he should be able to.

Remove the bonus penetration on his R, replace it with his double crit passive. This makes it so the he is less biased against tanks, while still keeping it as his "Better run you piggies!" button.

Remove the crit damage penalty from his kit, buff his base stats as needed to make up for the power shift.

Done25Jan 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Fiora needs a rework, not because she is unviable, but because her kit is super binary (she either feeds hard or solo carries from 10 minutes on).

Yi is not actually half bad. He has a decent level of counterability, which is good and healthy for gameplay, while having decent damage. Basically, it is your own fault if Yi gets ahead. Yi is still viable in higher elo (just look at Cowsep) he just requires better coordination to use well up there I guess.

Tryndamere would be a solid fighter except that his core mechanic aside from his ult is based on the most unstable and least balance able thing in this game. Yes he needs a rework, not a huge one, but some other way to give him a fury based damage steroid other than crit (heck, they could just make it so that his auto attacks deal % increased damage based on fury level and AP Trynd could become a real thing)

What about bonus crit damage based on his fury level? Like +50% damage at max fury.

junglerboy16Jan 4, 20152 votes

The only problem with that (as well as any crit related passive that isn't giving free crit chance) is that that becomes totally useless to him if A) he doesn't have innate crit at level 1, or B) doesn't build crit at all. 50% bonus crit damage would be better for the larger part of the game, except that all it does is make his random power spikes hurt that much more, and as such Riot would probably have to nerf something about his base damage or some other aspect of his kit, meaning he would ultimately end up even more random and inconsistent than he is now.

Done25Jan 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The only problem with that (as well as any crit related passive that isn't giving free crit chance) is that that becomes totally useless to him if A) he doesn't have innate crit at level 1, or B) doesn't build crit at all. 50% bonus crit damage would be better for the larger part of the game, except that all it does is make his random power spikes hurt that much more, and as such Riot would probably have to nerf something about his base damage or some other aspect of his kit, meaning he would ultimately end up even more random and inconsistent than he is now.

Hmmmm. What about a flat AD bonus? Make it scale based on his level to keep it under control in lane.

Done25Jan 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t1eBltUQ,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-01-04T18:10:56.672+0000)

So how do you feel about the viability of the carries? Fiora is getting a rework, Yi sees more play in low ranks, and I wouldn't be surprised if people wanted Tryndamere reworked as well.

I think that now that Baron has made split pushing better than ever thanks to how his buff works, melee carries have never been in a better spot. With an invincible wave of at his back Yi can easily wipe out entire lanes of towers in a single go. Same for Fiora, Jax, Xin, or anyone with really high AD+Attack Speed values.

JiharuJan 4, 20152 votes

Carry - Irelia Fighter - Irelia Bruiser - Irelia

3 roles, 1 champ Illuminati confirmed

Chromatic EagleJan 4, 20151 votes

Honestly I've always felt Irelia needed another rework, but idk how crazy I am for thinking it.

junglerboy16Jan 4, 20152 votes

Zed is an assassin, and in most drawn out fights, he doesn't do too well (Or at least, he isn't supposed to).

Riven is an AD Caster, and rarely (if ever) builds attack speed, instead relying on her abilities and getting CDR.

Jax is a melee carry, just not a melee ADC (Which are terms you are confusing).

Xin Zhao can 100% be built as a melee ADC, but that is not how he is normally played, hence not being classified as a melee ADC.

The people you are talking about are Melee ADCs. which is very distinct class apart from everything else in the game. Melee carries are not in any way the same thing, except for both dealing high damage end game. Anything that is melee range and is your team's damage source end game is a melee carry, but that includes assassins and some AD bruisers. Melee ADCs are much more specifically melee versions of an ADC (kinda makes sense). They exclusively use AD, AS, and crit for damage (except for off builds). They are usually quite squishy and have built in mechanics to prevent their own death (Yi's Alpha strike and meditate, Fiora's parry and ult, Tryndamere's ult and heal, Yasuo's Shield and wind wall, GP's oranges), and all have some sort of free built in steroid, unlike true assassins or bruisers (Yi's double strike and ult, Fiora's free AD and burst of speed, Trynd's Crits and free AD, Yasuo's double crit, GP's Paaarrley and raise morale). The reason I said Xin could be a melee ADC but generally isn't grouped like that is that while he does have potent steroids, he doesn't have any innate ability to protect himself. Once he goes in, he stays in, and that makes him really unsafe to use as a melee ADC, since he would get blown up if built glass cannon.

Done25Jan 4, 20151 votes

{quoted} The reason I said Xin could be a melee ADC but generally isn't grouped like that is that while he does have potent steroids, he doesn't have any innate ability to protect himself. Once he goes in, he stays in, and that makes him really unsafe to use as a melee ADC, since he would get blown up if built glass cannon.

I would argue otherwise. His R is a powerful disengage the knocks away anyone he isn't fighting and gives him defense stats per person hit, making him quite hard to kill in the middle of a team fight. Though he best shines in 1v1 duels where he can chain his CC to be inescapable.

CindikleJan 4, 20152 votes

Carry tends to mean they scale extremely well into late game. In terms of damage.

Overall any champion that can be AA focused can be a carry. This doesn't mean any champion that can AA can be a carry. You wont get amazing results with ADC Karthus.

This is because of how crit/as/ad multiple eachothers damage. Making your AA's very powerful with items. And a champion with AA steroids now has extremely strong sustained damage.

So for your list

Zed does have a 25% AD boost. But nothing that really makes him strong at AA'ing other than that in his kit. While he would be strong at doing so, he's still melee. A ranged with his kit could make it work with the ability to use his shadows and the 25% AD boost.
Riven is more of an AD caster than an ADC. Same reasoning as Zed. Does have a steroid. Her steroids are a bit too limited to be an ADC. Even more so since they are linked to using her abilities. She may as well focus on AD casting.
Jax can ADC and is a carry. But he does it better with a few tank items to help. He generally builds more damage items than a bruiser.
Xin's steroid is minimal. Most of his effectiveness in a fight is getting in, using his abilities and being annoying after that. Would get blown up after his abilities are gone so he can't get by without a few tank items. Unless you have one heck of a team backing you up.

Yasou could be considered an AD caster in a way. But the way his Q works and how he gets such a huge bonus in crit, it wont work as well. You could say he still is an AD caster. Since he sits on 100% he's not exactly playing the RNG card on it. And his AS items are for the same reason. Shiv/Bork just work so well on him. Even without the AS. It's like he's an AD caster that scales with ADC items I guess.