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Melee Carries: Most complained about yet most requested.

ModCaptainMårvelous·May 25, 2017·6 votes·675 views

Rewind the clock with me back to Season 1/2.

Do you know what was the most highly requested type of champion? That's right, a melee carry. Not just any melee carry, no. Players wanted a viable one. One they could take into a game and carry through sheer skill and power. And you know what? Riot indulged us in our desire.

We have , a highly scaling champion who becomes a team-wiping monster if you have the talents to animation cancel. We have , a crit-titan who will barrel you into oblivion after outpacing your farm by 10k. We have , the stabbing queen who is going to poke you so hard to death with true damage. and who could forget ?

The irony is that barring characters who are fairly meh in most places (Yi/Tryn), no character class has been complained about more barring possibly assassins...and even then, many AD carries fall into this category.

"But I didn'-" If you didn't, you probably weren't here for Seasons 1-2. Hell, Kassadin exists (and was originally designed as a melee carry) because the most requested "port" of a DOTA hero was Anti-mage. Think it's a coincidence how anti-magic he is while also possessing a short-CD blink? Yep. Players got what they wanted. Melee carries exist now (albeit probably not in the HYPER hyper carry capacity people wanted) and they're frequently one of the most hated/banned character classes in the game.

Guess we learned our lesson eh?

16 Comments

k wìxMay 25, 20177 votes

It's because the only way to make them truly viable is to inject a fuck-ton of Free Mobility into the kit, and that's infuriating to play against because in a game where position matters, it feels like they get a free pass.

Also: you forgot the original melee carry: MasterYi

ModCaptainMårvelousMay 25, 20172 votes

No I didn't.

The irony is that barring characters who are fairly meh in most places (Yi/Tryn), no character class has been complained about more barring possibly assassins...and even then, many AD carries fall into this category.

Yi sees some play in D+ (8% pick rate, 50% win rate or so) but he's never going to hit the pro-stage because he's too unreliable for them. The one time he DID get seen in pro-play was due to the godlike monstrosity that was AP Yi.

k wìxMay 25, 20171 votes

I agree with your assessment of Yi in the pro-scene, but I'm not really talking about his viability. **He's a melee carry, pure and simple. **

I also think your thread is on point! People bitch and moan about melee carries, but it's one of the most requested things! My point was more-so about mobility, rather than Yi. I was hoping to push the discussion in that direction, rather than argue about Yi. Sorry mate! :D

Why do you think Melee carries are so frustrating to play against? Why are they viewed as unfair by a good chunk of the player base? is it kiting adcs and casters crying because they got caught or something more?

I think balancing mobility is extremely difficult to do in a game like this, and Riot hasn't quite gotten there yet - for the record, I think Riven is arguably their best attempt so far at making a melee carry style champion 'feel balanced' to play against. Not saying it was a success, but you get my point!

Edit: And yea, AP Yi was some very fun times, I remember taking him support and just bursting the fuck out of both laners with alpha strike.

ModCaptainMårvelousMay 25, 20172 votes

No, you're not causing any trouble! I'm not like mad or anything, lol.

My point is that people want melee carries but refuse to see what a melee carry needs to be successful in this game, which includes:

Stupidly good scaling. (Yas with crit, Riven with AD, etc.)
Abilities on top of great AA damage. (Sometimes combined together, see GP Q)
An amazing defensive tool(s).
The mobility to stick to targets.

And the worst part is that most melee carries still aren't usually good enough to pick in pro play. To -really- break open the meta and have melee carries bot, the first step is to give them a way to deal bonus damage to objectives without making it worth picking up on top laners. (Ohmwrecker, for a short time, was said to be testing a version where melee could channel a laser on it and take towers at range)

At the end of the day, I want to see more unique and varied designs but it gets frustrating when something like Yasuo is constantly called "unfun and poorly designed" just because he's a functional melee carry.

k wìxMay 25, 20171 votes

I pretty much agree with everything you said except for the last sentence. I really don't think your average player has a problem with a functional melee carry - I think it's a mobility thing. I guess that does go hand-in-hand, but there has to be a way to do it right.

I think a big chunk of the problem is that SO many of the champions we're originally created and balanced with positioning being a critical element of the games design. I feel like these days, with so much of the cast having access to solid mobility injected into their kit, it creates this tension between old-school and modern riot design. I think the playing field needs to be balanced better with items and summoner spells. If immobile champions had better access to things that made them 'truly' mobile, you could start to see a world where a Yasuo and Lee don't feel quite so oppressive, then you could start looking at injecting more power into 'melee carries' to make them viable without feeling broken.

And yea, unique and varied designs would be epic - I think Riot has come a really long way with champion designs. They get better every year - the new duo botlane champions are some of the best from a balance, mechanics, and fun perspective out of the gate that I have pretty much ever seen.

KONO RUBICK DAMay 25, 20173 votes

The game HAD viable melee carries Jax was viable and was even played bot lane in competition, he was overlaoded AF then he got reworked and trashed away from bot lane

Also people complain about melee carries? let them

i remember that you wanted to balance the game around high elo, yasuo riven gp are extremely fine in high elo while fiora needs number nerfs

ModCaptainMårvelousMay 25, 20171 votes

I still do, but the irony isn't lost on me.

"WE WANT VIABLE MELEE CARRIES" "k" "WTF IS THIS CANCER SHIT." "Your viable melee carry. Enjoy."

Akali is SO HOTMay 25, 20173 votes

It's mostly Riot's fault for giving ranged carries so many options to defend themselves. Melee carries can't stay in the backline which means they have to leave their support to go do their damage (unless their support is Leona or someone) meaning that they are much more vulnerable to dying. Because so much of their kit is dedicated to actually getting in a position to do damage, that usually means they don't have an escape or have a very mediocre one which puts them in more danger. Why would you ever want to pick that instead of a ranged carry that can stay in the backline and has infinitely more ways to stay alive than a melee carry?

The only way melee carries can be viable is if their kits are total bullshit to the point where they can actually survive without all of the options ranged carries have. I remember back in Season 3 (I think?) it was either TSM or Curse that went Xin + Annie bot lane, but because Xin is so much more vulnerable to getting dicked on, they lost because the other team had a ranged carry.

Edit: It was TSM. Xin did okay early on, but in those later fights he couldn't do shit because he didn't have the tools to reliably do damage and survive at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTp94qryGd0

Teridax68May 25, 20172 votes

I agree with this: the benchmark for melee carries thus far has been marksmen, the game's designated carry class. However, whereas marksmen tend to innately have range on top of great scalings and many other personal tools, light fighters don't have that advantage, and need to have it compensated in some other way. So far, this has led to horrendously overloaded kits via excessive amounts of damage, mobility and personal utility. When those champions finally get balanced, they get balanced around solo laning, and so cannot compete with marksmen anymore. In order for melee carries to thrive, it's likely Riot will have to address marksmen as a class first.

JamenawerlMay 25, 20173 votes

Wait what? Who asked for a champion who just right clicks you to death in a few seconds in the middle of your team?

Other than the players with self-esteem problems who believe themselves better than everyone else for instagibing someone mashing the keyboard and then showing mastery ofc. Those arent complaining about their own mains and perpetuating the permaban circlejerk, they are spamming them in ranked.

Big LincolnMay 25, 20172 votes

in a game where

majority of meta supports can stunlock or permaslow you on their own (also tenacity is garbage nowadays) majority of supports can throw down fat shields/heals, usually on a lower cooldown than your own selfish defensive spell most tanks can stunlock you with less effort than it takes for you to outplay them even bruisers/"divers" have enough CC to nullify you ranged carries get more and more self-peel every time a new one comes out, while also scaling equally with you thanks to the crit system + their range durability gets worse every season to the point where champs who shouldn't be bursting you easily can still chunk you hard

melee carries need to be stuffed up with a lot to be able to compete.

and there are 2 types of melee carry imo. the traditional hyper-carries like fiora, yi, etc, fast with strong defensive tools, who are usually way better overall because so far they aren't as reliant on stats as much as they are mechanics (at least the new ones -- fiora/yas/gp). and the juggernauts, Darius, Illaoi. most of them are probably semi-carries rather than actual carries but they don't have the tools to juke or nullify all the bullshit that gets sent their way, so they get to build to be very tanky while still getting to do damage, and usually they get sustain so they can survive long enough to make an impact once they've actually trudged their way into a teamfight.

so yes i will gladly ask for more melee carries, I don't care how many times riot botches it, we should never let failures get in the way of progress

KONO RUBICK DAMay 25, 20171 votes

implying that melee carries so far have been failures

Arcus DiabolusMay 25, 20172 votes

I, for one, want more melee carries, but more like Riven and less right clicky like Yi or Yasuo.

Irelia BotMay 25, 20172 votes

So why is Yasuo hated so much but if you play Dota 2 Anti mage doesn't seem to have anywhere near the levle of hate?

And might this whole hate of melee carries have something to do with the choice riot made in having ranged physical damage carries get their own position and not balancing them into being seen as optional?

Last I checked Drow, Windranger and venomancer are seen as useful but not part of a mandatory class to always be played.

ModCaptainMårvelousMay 25, 20171 votes

If I had to say why, I'd attribute it most to DOTA player mentality vs. league player mentality.

Faceless Void ults you, bashes your brains in with zero counterplay

"WOW FUCKING BROKEN HERO" "lmao maybe you just need to get good and <any number of things>" "Fuck that I'm going to ask for nerfs!" "ROFL ok scrub. I'm sure IF will listen to you."

vs. Yasuo dashing through a crowd, ulting you and murking you.

"WOW FUCKING BROKEN CHAMPION" "UGH I KNOW RIGHT!?" "RIOT WHEN THE NERFS!?" "RIOOOOOOOOOOOOOT"

DOTA players are used to "git gud" mentality and know that asking for buffs/nerfs is probably asinine because Icefrog won't listen to them. LoL players are used to the safety mentality and know that asking for buffs/nerfs will eventually get Riot to cave to pressure.

While I don't think Riot's mentality of all ranged ADCs go bot (Something they finally started breaking with stuff like Quinn top, Varus mid and Graves jungle), I think the mentality is far more detrimental when it comes to melee carries existing.

ZT XperimentorMay 25, 20171 votes

Because people want to play them, but not against them; the majority (including riot) don't understand that alone is a recipe for failure in a pvp setting. Because marksmen have so much range and burst (supposed to be dps), melee's have to have mobility or vulnerability denial or survivability to reach them without being killed (remember xinzhao and irelia); then have to have damage to duel them once they get there. However the problem is riot can't keep it simple or limited (for example ekko & fiora), making them either overloaded or over-tuned by default; usually decent against ranged opponents, while often oppressive against other melees.

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