"ADC's are fine, ranged is fine. Crit Items are fine, Stormrazor is fine"

Packun Flower·Sep 12, 2018·3 votes·1,921 views

https://i.imgur.com/uvRYL0m.jpg

Graves doing 2200 damage to a tank with a single auto attack is** fucking ** fine.

https://i.imgur.com/6dMu3j1.png

31 Comments

Edge of DaybreakSep 12, 201815 votes

He definitely didn't do that in one basic attack seeing as it took you almost 8 seconds to die.

IllabetheSep 12, 20181 votes

It took 8 seconds because Blitz initiated. Blitz's damage was low. Graves could have done that in one shot.

RagnaveilSep 12, 20181 votes

Uh...Im pretty sure recap just has it at that high of damage because Graves was likely just autoing him in the 8 seconds to reach a total like that. If he could have done that in one shot against a tank like mundo, idk what could be said other than the game is broken once more.

Its just death recap being unreliable when trying to figure out how much a source of damage was dealing base, then knowing how much it did total against you until you died. Just gives you the total and thats it.

RexxieeSep 12, 20187 votes

Graves is not an adc hes a ranged carry bruiser assassin (basically broken) and he doesnt build crit.

Hell that graves has 0 % crit chance, so how does that make crit adcs or even adcs broken? Average biased trash thread.

Critmaster GarenSep 12, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Hell that graves has 0 % crit chance

item 3095

death recap shows that the fight went on for 8 seconds, which is fine. though "8 seconds" could still mean that he took a little bit of damage over the course of 7 seconds, and a shitload of burst in 1 second. death recap isnt really reliable. wed need a replay to judge what really happened here.

but please lets not pretend this item is ok. its literally an assassination tool for marksmen, which is conceptually a ridiculous idea. as evident by how many assassins ended up building it.

RexxieeSep 12, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ss05nBgy,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-09-12T03:54:27.253+0000)

death recap shows that the fight went on for 8 seconds, which is fine. though "8 seconds" could still mean that he took a little bit of damage over the course of 7 seconds, and a shitload of burst in 1 second. death recap isnt really reliable. wed need a replay to judge what really happened here.

but please lets not pretend this item is ok. its literally an assassination tool for marksmen. as evident by how many assassins ended up building it.

Sure, remove stormrazor but in turn also revert all of the crit item nerfs.

Stormrazor is only in game in its current state because crit and crit adcs were completely trashed.

In fact, most of them are still bad even with it.

Critmaster GarenSep 12, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Sure, remove stormrazor but in turn also revert all of the crit item nerfs.

Stormrazor is only in game in its current state because crit and crit adcs were completely trashed.

In fact, most of them are still bad even with it.

the point of the crit nerfs was to make marksmen less bursty and push their power spikes back to later stages of the game.

introducing stormrazor or reverting the crit nerfs defeats the entire purpose of the 8.11 changes. the item has no business to be in this game. its literally an assassin item designed for marksmen, that was introduced in the same patch that was supposed to make marksmen not assassinate their opponents with crits anymore.

not to mention that a bunch of marksmen have received hefty kit buffs in the following patches, and reverting the crit nerfs would make them end up even stronger than before.

neither keeping stormrazor in its current state or reverting crit is an option.

the only people who think stormrazor isnt a broken item are jhin mains.

IllabetheSep 12, 20183 votes

There really hasn't been any real crit item nerfs:

-Zeal items have returned to old costs. -IE is doing about the same exact damage it used to (just expressed in true damage, rather than post Armor reduction crit multiplier) -You still get to 100% Crit in 3 items.

The one thing that has changed: Stormrazor's Move speed bonus.

Destello AzulSep 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

... revert all of the crit item nerfs...

Nerfs? Do you think the changes to item 3031 are nerfs? Lol, loooooooool, XD XD. C'mon wo/man, before the "nerfs, XD, with , item 3087 and item 3046 you could have only 80% of crit chance, and you only deal AD damage, no you can have 100% and true damage. Nerfs, yeah, LOL! [sg-miss-fortune]

MizayaSep 12, 20181 votes

But it gives only 140% on a crit by itself. Then when you actually build crit you get one guaranteed crit of 200%.

The item is too strong on a select few champions, and on other champions it's really nothing special but gets built because you build anything else and you get outclassed even harder.

Quinn, for example, builds the item because she has a passive that usually allows her to deal extra damage on the first hit to a target. That becomes a lot of damage when stormrazor is added to the equation. She was really strong and nerfed for this reason.

Tristana, on the other hand, builds the item but really has nothing to frontload damage in her kit, it's actually in fact backloaded because of her E. And I'm convinced the only reason she gets picked is the buffs she got to that ability.

OtterlyLostSep 12, 20187 votes

He literally has two AAs before he has to reload and they require him to be in melee range to do damage; hes more like urgot than an ADC. Were you in melee range of him and against a wall so he got his q damage instantly?

Also mundo is a juggernaut. Not a tank. ._. He has an AD steroid and no abilities in his kit that provide CC or increase his resistances. He is a juggernaut

IllabetheSep 12, 20181 votes

Actually you're wrong. His "AD Steroid" also increases his resistance to MAGIC damage to a point where magic damage actually heals him. His entire kit is about him healing....

OtterlyLostSep 12, 20181 votes

His dash doesn't give MR and hasn't for over a season now. They removed that feature of his ages ago. And no, his entire kit is about being a bulkier, bruiser-esque marksmen who needs to sit on your face to do damage; nothing in his kit heals him. Perhaps you should do some research on Graves before commenting on a thread about Graves. At most, he builds healing items, usually a death's dance because he literally has to sit in melee range to do damage. And finally, it isn't an "AD steroid" as the only stats it gives are Armor.

Destello AzulSep 12, 20181 votes

Lol, he is talking about Mundo, XD. [sg-miss-fortune]

IllabetheSep 12, 20181 votes

Mundo DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A DASH.

He's also not a Marksman.

OtterlyLostSep 12, 20181 votes

Perhaps mention the name of the champion that you're talking about in your post then. .-. The primary meat of my post was about graves. The bit about Mundo was a throw away comment because people are still under the incorrect assumption that Mundo is a tank.

IllabetheSep 12, 20181 votes

The champ you literally said AD Steroid on was Mundo. Learn to read context.

Mundo IS a Tank.

OtterlyLostSep 12, 20181 votes

Or learn to properly apply a noun to your sentences. I'm perfectly fine reading context when it's not out of left field or when its not applied to a post I literally made at like 1 in the morning half awake where the meat of it was a reference to Graves.

And no. He is not a tank. He is not listed as a tank, for one. For two, he has all the same weakness as his the class he is listed as(juggernaut) in that he's immobile, has low CC, relies on big damage and healing over innate tankiness, and the best way to deal with him is via kiting him out and waiting for his ult to wear off. For three, he shares next to none of the traits a tank has; namely CC, the ability to peel, low damage, and often some kind of engage to allow them to get ontop of appropriate targets.

Champions that Mundo is like: Nasus, Darius, Garen, Olaf What do these champions do? Run at you and hope that they're fast enough and tanky enough that you can't just kite them out.

Champions that Mundo is not like(I.E. Tanks): Braum, Maokai, Zac, Sejuani, Amumu What do these champions do? Get super beefy while doing limited amounts of damage and look to engage teamfights and peel for their squishies. They provide engage, CC, and Peel. Mundo provides none of these.

He is not a tank. He is a Juggernaut. End of Story.

IllabetheSep 13, 20181 votes

Mundo has a move speed bonus in his R, Tenacity in his W, both of which are tank features meant to mitigate CC, and not "immobile" features.
E Literally is the most anti Mage feature in the game. It's a built in on steroids. How is Magic Resist increase/incoming damage reduction not a tank feature?
Tanks haven't had "Low Damage" for about 2 seasons. Almost every single one has been reworked into % damage dealers who can compete with itemizers in damage. Mundo HIGHLY mimics traits of both in his damage frequency and ability to sustain a fight. Are you calling THEM not tanks? (Oh wait. You just called Maokai a tank)

For the record..... Maokai Top Currently is ranked # 127 in game damage as a solo laner. Do you know what other top laners are ranking as damage?

Tryndamere 118 Riven 117 Chogath 125

Malphite ...... whose an actual tank...... is 114 Darius is 112.

What stats say is this: Maokai doesn't get played in roles where he gets a lot of group play or gold. He gets played in Support, where he doesn't get gold to purchase/farm and falls behind on levels, or he gets played Top, where he's in no man's land.

That's why all these champs I just mentioned.... are so low on the damage lists. Not because they are tanks/fighters/"juggernauts." If Maokai's kit was a mid kit... He'd be rank 30-40 in damage dealing. If Darius's kit was a mid kit, he'd be rank 26 or so. The difference between Darius and Maokai in damage is only about 800 damage a game.

You know where Mundo is? He's rank 80.... with about 19k damage a game. The difference between Maokai and Mundo per game is about 2150 damage. That's not much....

And that's just on DAMAGE.

How about damage TAKEN?

Mundo is #3 for most damage taken, behind Cho Gath Top, and Zac Jungle (Zac Jungle shouldn't really count, since his farming is part of his damage taken).

Mundo until recently WAS #1 in damage taken. That's a tank stat.

Mundo averages 5.35 Deaths. Maokai averages 5.2

BIG DIFFERENCE.

Again..... Tank stat.

You know what's really funny? By your definition of a tank..... there really aren't many "tanks" doing better than Mundo on deaths. And if they are, only marginally, or more specifically, they are junglers, who avoid lane confrontations.

Taric Shen (who by your definition should do no damage, yet duels anyone from 100-0%) Malphite (Who should do no damage) Zac (Jungler).

And...... that's it.

Really seems like "being beefy" isn't working as much as having % DAMAGE kits.

Which on to my final point:

There is no such thing as a tank anymore. We are in a True Damage/Armor Pen meta. No tanks are exception to this rule. If you do not have damage/mobility, you cannot tank. Period. You DIE. The only tank feature that is actually working right now...... is...... HP Regeneration/Heals, and Magic Resistance. Both of which Mundo HAS.

OtterlyLostSep 13, 20181 votes

Dude, none of that is relevant in the fact of several league wikis and websites classifying him as a tank as well as his kit still not being a tank kit. You mention him getting resists and tenacity as part of his kit; I saw, so fucking what? So does garen. Is garen now a tank? So does nasus. Is nasus now a tank?

He is a juggernaut. I'm sorry you're a bad loser but he is not a tank. He is a juggernaut. If he does less damage than mostjoggers, it's because for one, everyone builds him straight tank instead of picking up a titanic and letting him wreck face. For two, he is one of the oldest juggernauts in the game and in need of a rework.

IllabetheSep 13, 20181 votes

Juggernaut is a friggin nerdy excuse for saying, "I do both damage and am a tank. All the champs you are mentioning.... up until about Season 6 were CALLED TANKS. Juggernaut is just a label some dev at Riot came up with in Season 6 to give guys like you some technical deviations from tank to bicker about. A juggernaut walks, talks, and moves like a TANK. They just pick up one item tank's usually don't: item 3071

OtterlyLostSep 14, 20181 votes

Juggernaut is a term that better describes these beefier fighters. They were technically called fighters before season 6. Not tanks.

Also, apparently Tanks walk like Darius and build two to three damage items: https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Darius https://champion.gg/champion/Darius/Top?league= Or Garen: https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Garen https://champion.gg/champion/Garen/Top?league= And I wasn't aware that tanks spent money on Trinity Force as an item: https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Nasus https://champion.gg/champion/Nasus/Top?league= As the most expensive item in the game, I would have thought they'd be better spending their time getting, I don't know, maybe tanky?

How about if it walks like a tank, fights like a fighter, its actually a Juggernaut. I have shown tons of evidence for the fact that Mundo is a Juggernaut/Fighter(if you prefer a less nerdy term that's been around since the beginning of league). Yet you still want to argue and still want to be continually proven wrong.

Tanks have CC; Mundo does not. Tanks do not have damage steroids; Mundo does. Tanks have modes of getting ontop of people in fights and engaging them; holy shit, Mundo does not. And no, Running at them doesn't count as engage; anyone could just engage by running at a person. I could engage by running at people as a Caitlyn; doesn't mean it works well.

Mundo does not walk nor talk like a tank. Neither do Darius, Garen, Nasus, Volibear, or many others; they walk and talk more like tankier bruisers who are, DUN DUN DUN, JUGGERNAUTS.

True GarenSep 14, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Juggernaut is a friggin nerdy excuse for saying, "I do both damage and am a tank. All the champs you are mentioning.... up until about Season 6 were CALLED TANKS. Juggernaut is just a label some dev at Riot came up with in Season 6 to give guys like you some technical deviations from tank to bicker about. A juggernaut walks, talks, and moves like a TANK. They just pick up one item tank's usually don't:

Tanks have some hard CC. Not just a slow (that any champion could buy anyway). Juggernauts don't have hard CC. True tanks have hard CC.

Juggernauts have some tank stats. Stats alone do not a tank make.

Having said that.... Mundo pushes the border a little. Mundos (like this one) actually do build straight tank. Other Juggernauts usually make at least one damage item, first. (Riot considers Deadman's Plate to be an offensive item on Garen.)

FrozenFrostFyreSep 12, 20185 votes

Show us the replay I want to see just much much of this you are bullshitting.

PalaverSep 12, 20181 votes

Yeah for real...sounds like a salt post to me.

CochoSep 12, 20185 votes

graves is busted but 2200 dmg with one auto to 187 armor mundo? cmon bruh atleast make an attempt at being resonable lol

RysophageSep 12, 20181 votes

complains about crit builds sunfire instead of thorn or randuins.

ok.[slayer-jinx-unamused]

True GarenSep 14, 20184 votes

{quoted}

complains about crit builds sunfire instead of thorn or randuins.

ok.[slayer-jinx-unamused]

He had a Warden's... he just didn't make it first.

EyesOfTheFoxSep 12, 20181 votes

In death recap the auto attack section is cumulative, so that could technically be a combined total of both of his shots (possibly 3), which is still 1k something dmg a piece (750-ish if 3 shots were fired) which is more than 50% of a lot of champions max health. His bullets also do more dmg the closer you are to him as the whole spread will go into that single target.

Armor and MR are kind of a joke. You can have 70% decreased dmg from magic attacks and still take like 1-2k in dmg anyway. #feelsbadman

MizayaSep 12, 20181 votes

He has 351 AD. Alright, so even if Mundo was standing literally on top of him and got hit by all the bullets, one crit shouldn't even do more than 1k damage since he doesn't have crit to increase the stormrazor crit (i think). And that's before armor even factors in. How could anyone even believe that he autoed once for 2.2k?