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As a Reminder - Sona is Balanced around her Passive Taking Three Spells to Cast

The Yetii Rider··7 votes·761 views
11/20 PBE Update

And her CDR buffs on her ult.

On the PBE - Sona's Q mana cost increased by 15 at all ranks, from 45-65 to 60-80.

Sona's Q W E rotation, which she needs to cast to access her passive, now costs 245 mana at level 13 (Q costs 80 mana, W costs 100 mana, E costs 65 mana).

Her entire rotation in team fights costs 345 mana when you tack on her ultimate.

There are very few support items that give maximum mana, and none really that Sona would want. It's almost like Riot is forcing Sona to build Tear of the Goddess for the high return on the % cost refund and the spammability of 1000 maximum mana. But Sona is an incredibly squishy champion, and Tear is quite a costly investment for someone who can't farm.

Her passive is not being buffed for this mana cost hike. Her Q is being nerfed, mostly, until you build some AP (even then the mana cost is still a bigger problem than the AP ratio buff).

As a reminder, Sona's ultimate gives her 10/20/40% CDR on all of her basic abilities. Sona is a champion that is designed to spam her shit in the late game. Why is this becoming more difficult. If Sona's early game is a problem, don't fuck up her late game to compensate it.

29 Comments

RedCyclone3 votes

Fixed by a Tear

They appear to be pushing Sona further in the direction of not being strong at all early but becomes a monster later, only really miffed at the actual damage nerf With Aery getting nerfed too it kinda may be a bit too much on her low AP poke

Frontline Fury2 votes

Guess Riot wants to enforce Sona players investing into items like item 3100, item 3025, item 3110 or item 3050. You will be forced to invest into mana to actually be allowed to spam your spells, otherwise you have to carefully think about when to use them.

As a Taric main, welcome to the club.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-I2eCsL-8_WM/WahhQnjp9OI/AAAAAAABEwg/j90w0o0fqWgU1Nc58jZNZjDO6CKOPRh-wCLcBGAs/s1600/050ea44b907a1ceb.png

chipndip15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sriRPUBE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-21T05:20:30.649+0000)

Guess Riot wants to enforce Sona players investing into items like item 3100, item 3025, item 3110 or item 3050. You will be forced to invest into mana to actually be allowed to spam your spells, otherwise you have to carefully think about when to use them.

As a Taric main, welcome to the club.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-I2eCsL-8_WM/WahhQnjp9OI/AAAAAAABEwg/j90w0o0fqWgU1Nc58jZNZjDO6CKOPRh-wCLcBGAs/s1600/050ea44b907a1ceb.png

But Taric's abilities are designed to actually do shit per cast, given timing. You have hard cc. You have a heal from two locations that amps up while you sit on the cd. You have aoe invincibility on your ult. Sona's whole kit is a bunch of numbers you just rapid-fire pump into all your allies. There's really no room for this type of nerf. Mana nerf + damage nerf on top of a healing nerf + base armor nerf? Literally WTF? Taric and Leona are doing about as good as Sona is. Why the hell is Sona getting hit with the whole nerf bat rack alone?

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

But Taric's abilities are designed to actually do shit per cast, given timing. You have hard cc. You have a heal from two locations that amps up while you sit on the cd. You have aoe invincibility on your ult. Sona's whole kit is a bunch of numbers you just rapid-fire pump into all your allies. There's really no room for this type of nerf. Mana nerf + damage nerf on top of a healing nerf + base armor nerf? Literally WTF? Taric and Leona are doing about as good as Sona is. Why the hell is Sona getting hit with the whole nerf bat rack alone?

I think it is because Sona has been doing too much of everything. She does everything Taric does better than him while doubling as a burst mage. While Taric has to put himself at extreme risk to function effectively, Sona not only has a practically 0 cooldown movement speed buff that puts her among League's fastest champions, her spells and basic attacks also easily outrange the majority of marksmen in the game.

My guess is that Riot wants to force you to make a decision between burst mage and shield/healing support. You're no longer allowed to automatically do both better than everybody else without actually opting into it as a specific playstyle.

EpicSaxGandalf3 votes

she doubles as a burst mage, taric doubles as a tank. She only gets reliable damage early(trust me she doesn't have early sustain pre tear) and needs to get into auto attack range to get effective use of her passive(who's range is not better than most adc's, 550 is on par with at least half the ads's with outliers on both ends). Taric gets a longer range ,longer duration,and more effective shield during laning phase(due to the tether mechanic) as well as significantly more reliable pre-6 cc(which is extremely relevant given a large portion of fights occur bot lane before 6). i would say taric now has a significantly better lane given he actually makes use of his kit and is at least proactive to some degree. Due to sona's mana costs she can't be a heal/shield bot before tear backing , meaning she needs to poke to be effective, and given the nerfs she has less of a window to do that before she runs out of mana.

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

she doubles as a burst mage, taric doubles as a tank. She only gets reliable damage early(trust me she doesn't have early sustain pre tear) and needs to get into auto attack range to get effective use of her passive(who's range is not better than most adc's, 550 is on par with at least half the ads's with outliers on both ends). Taric gets a longer range ,longer duration,and more effective shield during laning phase(due to the tether mechanic) as well as significantly more reliable pre-6 cc(which is extremely relevant given a large portion of fights occur bot lane before 6). i would say taric now has a significantly better lane given he actually makes use of his kit and is at least proactive to some degree. Due to sona's mana costs she can't be a heal/shield bot before tear backing , meaning she needs to poke to be effective, and given the nerfs she has less of a window to do that before she runs out of mana.

I think you sort of missed my point here. Yes, Taric is currently doing well - but the point of my comment was to point out how Sona is simply getting the Taric treatment due to her being oppressively strong in capable hands.

Perhaps there is a fancy new item build for her, or perhaps she's simply being played very differently in higher elo than in low elo. Either way, she is clearly a little too strong compared to similar champions like Karma and Nami, and these changes are likely aimed towards focusing her power in the form of encouraging aggressive item options like Seraph's embrace and Lich bane.

She is still perfectly playable the old way. You just have to be smarter than buying the generic flavour of the month control mage items and smashing your face into your keyboard.

With this, you actually have to think a little before using your spells. Previously, Sona would just hammer the keyboard whenever an enemy came into range.

EpicSaxGandalf2 votes

i was honestly just correcting the (in my opinion) complete fallacy that was your first paragraph,and with my last sentence addressing your last part. With the nerfs she can't do either poke/burst mage nor heal/shield bot effectively early.

As for your more recent comment, my rebuttal would have to be something close to problems pertaining to her skill expression where the only difference between good sona users and bad sona users is realistically game fundamentals (positioning, ult placement and timing, knowing when and how to trade effectively given the fairly simplistic tools she possess) bad sona users will still run out of mana extremely quickly with the changes, while good sona users still get punished just as badly for using their spells effectively given the minimum lane interaction needed to potentially win a lane given equal skill disparity.

Either way these changes are purely nerfs and nudges sona into a playstyle that loses lane to competent laners given equal skill either by being unable to cast spells through heavy mana gates or playing so passive and prserving your mana that you lose lane automatically(scaling of adc's and proactivity of opposing support notwithstanding). This doesn't change her build path, this doesn't change the way you play, it just punishes you for playing sona the way her kit is meant to be played.

Edit: after relooking over the entire conversation since the begining i see your point in regards to the taric treatment, where one needs to build mana in order to spam spells. I suppose my actual rebuttal to this arguemnt is that the difference between sona and taric here is that taric functions well without spamming spells do to the sheer effectiveness of his base kit while sona needs to spam spells in order to be effective. one needs lots of mana to function do to the sheer lowness of her numbers while taric doesn't.

Pika3101 votes

{quoted}

This doesn't change her build path, this doesn't change the way you play, it just punishes you for playing sona the way her kit is meant to be played.

...and there's the underlying problem of everything right there: Sona is being punished for playing the way Fearless and RicklessAbandon designed her to be played. Sona will continue buying Lich Bane, Archangel & Luden's Echo, not in spite of the nerfs, but BECAUSE of these nerfs and will still continue to be played as that "burst" mage that everyone is complaining about.

These nerfs do not dissuade that playstyle, they encourage it. Because she doesn't have the tools to be used like a normal enchanter (no hard cc pre-6, terrible damage mitigation,) she has to buy artificial numbers and because Rito keeps mana-gating her harder and harder, she will continue buying Archangel and probably some sort of Catalyst item too.

EpicSaxGandalf3 votes

i posted this on the subreddit and ill copy it here cause i thought it was relevant

"Riot makes spammy character, nerfs values to compinsate for spam, increases mana cost to stop spam essentially negating their identity as a champion thus leaving her with what.... low value abilities that cannot be spammed without crutch items? Thus negating her early game due to reliance on crutch items, making her a lvl reliant and item reliant support which is counterproductive to the whole concept of what a support is. Meaning either make her a mid laner or make her non item/non lvl reliant."

im fine with them forcing sona into this spammy playstyle, im fine with riot adjusting her values to compensate, im not fine with her being mana gated so she can't play the style she was made to play. Spammy character with low values = fine, spammy character with low values who can't actually spam = not fine.

Pika3101 votes

Whelp, you've accurately summed up the past 3+ years in a nutshell, if I do say so myself.

I'm reminded of 5-Attack Speed Kog'Maw and how he proved an "auto-attack spamming" playstyle was unblanceable and inevitably needed to be reverted.

I don't like the spammy Sona they've created either, admittedly for the same reason as you. Fearless and patch 4.13 created this "spamSona." That rework turned out to be a complete failure and RicklessAbandon with patch-6.14 accentuated the "spam" part of spamSona even more so.

This 2nd rework is even a bigger failure than the first one; perhaps it be best just to return Sona to her original kit? Put her back to the way she was pre-3.14 and just go from there.

EpicSaxGandalf2 votes

i would actually like to see sona reworked with skill expression in her kit while keeping her music thematic(obviously no matter what you have to keep the music theme) i personally want to see something close to her abilities(Q at least) turned into skillshots . For example, off the top of my head, her Q could be a skillshot that works like karma q but doesn't have the slow but bounces off terrain like a sound wave and maybe does less damage(or more damage if you look into complexities like zoe) after the bounce. idk i would have to think about it more. i have to admit that her kit during season 3 is still a little too bianry and we want to step away from that, just in a different direction than currently implemented.

Pika3101 votes

Yes, I've seen the Karma skillshot idea. The reverberating off terrain is nice touch I admit, adds some geometry (Vel'Koz all over again.)

At the same time, they could also make her heal single-target like literally every other heal in the game.

Rito could bring back the "increased attack range on next basic attack" they're were testing with Celerity.

There are a lot of options available. Rito is just refusing to incorporate any of them and would rather kneejerk nerf her, into nerfing her keystone (the true culprit of her inflated win rate,) into even more nerfs next patch.

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

i was honestly just correcting the (in my opinion) complete fallacy that was your first paragraph,and with my last sentence addressing your last part. With the nerfs she can't do either poke/burst mage nor heal/shield bot effectively early.

As for your more recent comment, my rebuttal would have to be something close to problems pertaining to her skill expression where the only difference between good sona users and bad sona users is realistically game fundamentals (positioning, ult placement and timing, knowing when and how to trade effectively given the fairly simplistic tools she possess) bad sona users will still run out of mana extremely quickly with the changes, while good sona users still get punished just as badly for using their spells effectively given the minimum lane interaction needed to potentially win a lane given equal skill disparity.

Either way these changes are purely nerfs and nudges sona into a playstyle that loses lane to competent laners given equal skill either by being unable to cast spells through heavy mana gates or playing so passive and prserving your mana that you lose lane automatically(scaling of adc's and proactivity of opposing support notwithstanding). This doesn't change her build path, this doesn't change the way you play, it just punishes you for playing sona the way her kit is meant to be played.

Edit: after relooking over the entire conversation since the begining i see your point in regards to the taric treatment, where one needs to build mana in order to spam spells. I suppose my actual rebuttal to this arguemnt is that the difference between sona and taric here is that taric functions well without spamming spells do to the sheer effectiveness of his base kit while sona needs to spam spells in order to be effective. one needs lots of mana to function do to the sheer lowness of her numbers while taric doesn't.

As a Taric player i can say for sure that he does not function well without spamming spells. In your typical fight you are forced to spam your extremely expensive low efficiency heal repeatedly to keep your carry from dying, and you will typically run out of mana halfway into most trades. I've recently been forced to ban Leona because you simply do not have the mana to keep up with her extremely high base damages.

EpicSaxGandalf2 votes

i guess if you just replace sona with taric in that exact paragraph, we are in the similar boats then with my new point being he still has pre-6 cc which i would give up sona's damage for anyday.

Frontline Fury1 votes

{quoted}

i guess if you just replace sona with taric in that exact paragraph, we are in the similar boats then with my new point being he still has pre-6 cc which i would give up sona's damage for anyday.

Using Taric as a comparison to Sona to call the changes unfair is still unreasonable, however. Taric has to put himself at extreme risk to have any presence in lane - meanwhile Sona has range on her side as well as an extremely long range damage spell that homes in on enemy champions. She is designed primarily as a damage dealer - Taric is designed as a warden. They both have tradeoffs, but Sona's tradeoffs were coming off a little short compared to the extreme power between certain masteries, her passives and her attack range.

At level 1 a Sona starting Q can easily chunk the opposing marksman for 30 or even 40% of their max health, and often drop a Nami or Soraka to 40% total HP in one Q - auto. That is why she has been rather dominant in the middle elos (diamond and above) during the first week of preseason.

EpicSaxGandalf2 votes

yes yes, we all get that they are different champions, who have IMO alot of similarities and a measureable amount of differences. The point at the end of the day is that if sona can't have effective use of her combat abilities due to their high mana costs over the course of a lane then she loses all merit as a support due to other issues mentioned earlier, and we will just have to see if the changes actually make her garbage as some believe, or in a fine spot as others do.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sriRPUBE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-21T06:57:33.932+0000)

I think it is because Sona has been doing too much of everything. She does everything Taric does better than him while doubling as a burst mage. While Taric has to put himself at extreme risk to function effectively, Sona not only has a practically 0 cooldown movement speed buff that puts her among League's fastest champions, her spells and basic attacks also easily outrange the majority of marksmen in the game.

My guess is that Riot wants to force you to make a decision between burst mage and shield/healing support. You're no longer allowed to automatically do both better than everybody else without actually opting into it as a specific playstyle.

None of these changes really make you play her different. They're just general power nerfs across her two spells that matter (assuming these go through).

Pika3101 votes

On the contrary, the nerfs will just **encourage **players to **continue **playing her exactly the same as they already are. Reduced damage? Spellblade and Echo just got more important. Heavier mana gating? Can't skip that Tear now. Worse damage mitigation? Spellblade and Echo just got more important and the Forbidden Idol line just got less viable.

#BetterNerfSona

Pika3102 votes

Don't forget they're also cutting the Q bubble's damage by half at every rank too.

You know what version of Sona people didn't complain about and didn't get nerf after nerf after nerf? Original Sona, pre-4.13. Remember the last time Sona saw consistently successful professional play? Original Sona, pre-4.13.

Can we please just revert back to her original kit already?

Benelovent2 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget they're also cutting the Q bubble's damage by half at every rank too.

You know what version of Sona people didn't complain about and didn't get nerf after nerf after nerf? Original Sona, pre-4.13. Remember the last time Sona saw consistently successful professional play? Original Sona, pre-4.13.

Can we please just revert back to her original kit already?

Sigh That memorys hurts too much

Red Wreckage1 votes

Yasuo needs him to buy 2 crit items Draven needs him to get a kill

cry moar cause fk sona the braindead ez mode squishy nuker

EpicSaxGandalf2 votes

your just fairly antagonistic arn't you?

Red Wreckage1 votes

i see shitposts i call 'em out

like OP is saying waaaaaa need mana to use sona's passive

Yi's passive needs him to AA 4 times being a squishy melee.

EpicSaxGandalf2 votes

points noted... your mostly correct.. however i take this as confirmed that you're antagonistic

Pika3102 votes

Nobody said Yi doesn't need some love, but right now, he isn't the one getting multiple nerfs after getting multiple nerfs after a pathetic showing on the worlds stage. Well, except for maybe that last part, since I don't think he got picked. Again.

Sona has already:

  • Had her AD nerfed to match the lowest AD amongst supports, despite being the only one **without **a permanent on-hit modifier
  • Had her armor nerfed, even though she'd been compensated the exact same amount as every other enchanter, during "Runes Reforged"
  • Had her heal/shield nerfed, despite being the worst sustain spell in the game.

Now she will:

  • Be further mana-gated, despite being the most mana-starved support in the game. Archangel Staff has already been a near necessity since 6.14.
  • Have her on-hit modifier cut in half, which just further compounds the issue with already having her base AD nerfed.

Sona hasn't even been a thing for over 3 years, but suddenly in the chaos of overhauling the entire system, she gets an artificially high winrate and Meddler himself, personally jumps on it to gut her into the ground. Not Ezreal, not Twitch, not Kalista, Xayah, Kayne, Trist, Vayne or Galio, but Sona. Now, after Aery is also being gutted into the ground, Meddler isn't wasting any time gutting Sona some more. Because the sheeple LoL community doesn't understand that her kit comes from artificial numbers and no matter how many nerfs they make to Sona directly, she's gonna be exactly the same: Buy Spellblade into Tear into Echo and rely on artificial numbers to compensate for having the worst kit in the game.

Win rate doesn't even matter, Meddler himself stated as such, but since the majority blindly worships winrate, what better chance for Meddler to do the thing he loves most in this world? Nerfing Sona.

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/data-and-champion-balance-part-1

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/PAtL0xel-quick-gameplay-thoughts-november-10?comment=006a0000

Benelovent2 votes

Damn... DUUUDE... You're SOO fking right! This is just insane. I cry for the days when AOE of crescendo was into whole line in primary seasons and her true damage, as this personage was created once. This is really sad, bois. I understand, that Rito put more mana necessary to Q, okay - this is not mortal.. not at all. But nerfin THE HALF of dmg boost?!... Sorry, but this is really too much. She don't have a good..decent heal till late game (25+min, when this is REALLY doesn't matter anymore), she really dies in 2 hits from Ezreal with... CLEPTOMANCY... <EZREAL... WITH... CLEPTOMANCY... ONESHOTS YOU...> You see that!? That's really sucks! Leona is the N1 in win rate, ONLY after goes Sona - why they don't nerf then the sunPrincess?! She is not too hard in gameplay, really... I just don't understand this. This is really not fair. I hope, they review their position about her, otherwice... "well.. fk, I just lost 20$ on the best skin in this game for the most squishy personage in this game. I'm so happy..." [sona-playing] [sg-ahri-1]

Naqel1 votes

As a person that owns all of her skins and considers himself a "Sona main" I am absolutely okay with this.

Sona's basic spell rotation is extremely powerful, and her versatility must come at a cost given her reliability. It is only reasonable that she is given an alternate set of needs in her build path, particularly now that Runes Reforged finds her in a position of even easier victories in the war of attrition.

Linna Excel1 votes

Have you tried tear or morello's on her? One gives her a lot of mana and AP and the other refunds mana on assist.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Morello's doesn't give mana on assists anymore, that's Athene's Unholy Grail.

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