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Rune and mastery system

Decrit··23 votes·7,500 views

Masteries are a really cool thing: the more you level up the more you become competent ( more or less ), and since by leveling up you gain also masteries you can tailor your own playstile for free, without consequences if you screw up and in a way that does not overhaul you with too much work. Runes on the other side are rather annoying: they cost IP and you have to spend a lot of them for making different sets, but they add more firepower than the masteries that are too much pulverized. Combined together you have a weird double-scaling system, one base don levels and one on levels and IP, that basically just adds numbers. And you have to get those numbers, you can hardly jungle at level 1-15.

If this sistem is to be mantained but improved, what should be done? I want to hear what the community thinks! And try to not use sheer numbers, else we only get headaches!

I have an idea of my own, and i want to expose it:

The Mastery Rune System

First of all let me say that about Masteries Riot wants early power for the lower rank masteries and award scaling/endgame power for those who invest in the higher rankings ( i am still looking for the link of the dev blog :P ), and i think that is a legitimate way to better define the role of masteries and resource management, but i dislike the mastery tree because 1) pulverized unfunny undefining power 2) cookie cutter builds; the latter is necessary because you can' t have a single tree or each character.

So, why not instead combine those two?

The new system that i have developed is born so it can be simple, yet powelful and with many deep gameplay, customization and strategic choices and, most of all, that have clarity. The system is based on the rune page, with runes as marks, glyphs, seals and quintessences; those can cover the same role as they are now or instead cover the masteries role ( mark -> Offensive; seal -> Defensive; Glyph -> Utility and Quintessences all of them, but have a different role and i will talk about them later ), and exactly like it is in live you unlock a slot for each level you gain. Each rune set, with the exception of Quintessences, has a tiering: if you put 3/6/9 of those runes you gain additional power, related to the runes you have invested. For example if you put 3 AD flat runes you gain scaling AD per level, while if you put CDR you will gain a summoner' s spell cooldown reduction ( or maybe something that scales better with lategame, and still is for general use) and so on. This effects, wathever it might be, scales linearly with the tier of the rune.

This way putting tons of a stat has a high defining role, and the more you invest the more that is impactful in your late game, but** you can also effectively do hybrid builds** in order to get bonuses and effects from other runes for balance reason ( for example bringing on 6 ad runes and 3 as runes, in order to maximize early duel power or jungle clear, plus the tier effect of AD and AS runes ); you won' t lose everything if you place only 6 runes instead of 3, and you can place a triplet of the desired rune so it can be impactful and effetive in your games. Quintessences instead have a different role: they give secondary effects, to the likes of masteries as Executioner or Legendary Guardian, but have no tiering and are instead a role defitioner.

Pros and cons

Since getting runes and rune pages might be a true burden of IP i was thinking about giving for free a set of runes for each kind for generic purposes, nominally hybrid damaging runes, hybrid defensive runes and hybrid restoration runes; the reason behind this is that new players don' t know what to get, and probably not even think about it, and only think about playing different champions so in this way they can have fun and later on, while they are invested deeply in the game, get some of the more exotic or specialized runes for theyr builds; plus it can be a good kickstarter for jungling.

Some then might ask: what about the cool effect of some masteries, like Spellblade, Legendary Guardian or Bandit? Those can be well implemented in this mechanic! It can be done that some Quintessences or some Rune tiers activate effects like these special masteries, so not only the player is not forced to pick those cbecause are in the tree and can compare different effects, but it can also calibrate their power following his needs! This system can be developed further in a way that i call "exotic runes", runes that as tiering effect does not have a simple scaling per level effect but an other one while still giving the same stat. For example we can have Critical ChanceMarks, which tiering effect is a simple "critical chance per level", but there can be also stuff like " Critical Chance Mark of the Berserker", that instead has "increase critical damage dealt by x%" or "Critical Chance Mark of the Assassin" that has "increase critical chance by x% while attacking an enemy from the back" while they still give the base amount of critical strike chance.

I want to remember you that, since masteries would be removed for this system, the runes can afford to be a little more powerful!

That' s it. It can have some other mechanics, like having quintessence requiring a certain number of runes of a kind and such but i belive it will only complicate stuff. I also aknowledge many problems like IP refound and the fact that, even with the need to purchase Rune pages and exotic runes lots of IP will be destined to buy champions, that is cool for us but less cool for developers that will see champion buy with RP giving far less income; still, this is only a gameplay design and not an actual proposal/application sooo get wild :D

Resource Jazz, aka Ip and value problems

Many people noted in the comment section how this system has the big problem of heavy IP spending, due to basing all the leveling power on runes and rune pages. I already addressed this issue earlier but i want to repeat and clearify more here. I did not wanted too much to alter IP pricing because i developed this system under the gameplay design position, and not the resource management one; however, since developing purely only under the design side is not only underachieving but also EAZY AND BORING i wanted to tackle the resource system by giving space to Ip tuning: basic and simple runes can cost less compared to the exotic ones, rune pages can be free or cost less since this system forces the player to get more of them and coupled with an eventual upcoming IP sink the resources could be balanced while giving the player less IP grind for power.

There are also other systems that could be applied. In a different thread a Summoner addressed the nooby traps that are the tier 1 and 2 runes by adding a rune upgrade system, and since i am full deep in runes by myself i also weighted in with my own idea about rune management based on our actual system: removing t1 runes, make t2 runes free and t3 runes as they are now. If you want to give a look if you already did not here' s the link ( hard to miss aniway ).

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay/Nhy4sAZz-way-to-improve-runes

The Almight TL;DR

System based only on runes, with special effects embedded based on the number and kind of runes invested Potential high variety of useful runes High support for builds with frammentated stats but also for focused ones Simpler, more powerful, clear and easy to understand, more impactful in game Potential IP problems for rune pages, proposal of kickstrarter runes, IP sink for exotic runes

Edit 2: heavier formatting and little riediting, also i want to thank for becoming the post of the day! You made my day <3

61 Comments

RiotRiot Baconhawk13 votes

I'm a big fan of uber-customization, but the Lazyhawk part of me wants a different method. Some would say character speccing/customization comes by way of actual champ selection and initial item buys, but League is such a game of minutia that Dangerous Game can be the difference you actually rely on in that bot lane Lucian vs Vayne duel.

I guess it's a good thing I'm on Skins team, because I can't make up my mind what would work. I'll leave this to the dudes over on gameplay! draws pictures

Alice Twilight3 votes

I'd agree with your 'uber-customization' idea if it were true, there are completely useless runes and masteries that basically only serve as false choices.

Thunder Dreamss3 votes

While there are some newb traps in the system there is allot more room to customize then most people realize. This is particularly true in that you don't need to run 21 and 9 in Masteries and and that you don't need to run 9x of any given Rune. There are other combinations with their own strengths.

RiotRiot Baconhawk9 votes

The tiny OCD crazy person in me (very small, less than five pounds, I swear) wholeheartedly agrees with you. I love making rune pages where all the numbers come out round. Bliss.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

Why cant the runes just be round number O.o

Nazzadan2 votes

Yes I too like to gimp myself at the loading screen with a suboptimal build

Lord Graves III1 votes

Don't be smarmy.

He's right. What is optimal is far less definite than what most of the community feels it is. Masteries and runes are there to fill in the gaps of our playstyles. I rarely take damage in lane but run dry of mana frequently. For me mana glyphs are optimal.

Perhaps what you should look at is WHY you feel like other builds are suboptimal, and why you feel other builds are inherently weaker. Unless you have some hard proof that going 16/5/9 is objectively worse and truly gimping oneself.

I'd argue that Masteries and especially runes FEEL like they have optimal choices rather than valid and varied choices. Runes this is doubly true for as they cost the same currency as champions, so everyone just tries for the same reliable albeit not specialized rune pages.

Decrit2 votes

\ Offers bacon as a sign of gratitude / Well that is also an other problem, you have to pick a page for each char and it is costly. If it was for me i would have done only a page fixed for each character and we are good, buuuut i did not wanted to change that much. Plus i hate swapping runes and masteries before a match, it' s lame! ( but even i do it )

... can you sketch Veigar for the next/soon sketch of the day, or you did and i missed it? :3

Thunder Dreamss6 votes

I don't particularly like this idea because it ignores that fact that right now Runes and Masteries function in a similar but different manner.

Masteries are tiered, locked in build paths. You can't get that +3% damage without investing allot in Offense to get up there. This lets them have stronger bonuses gated by the investment you need before you reach that point. The gated structure also allows for more interesting one-off effects as well, such as spell-weaving and blade-weaving.

Runes on the other hand are flat stat buffs. There are no trees, no gates (once you hit 30). Just pick the stats you want.

This means, effectively, that they fill slightly different roles. If I'm an adc or fighter and need a little extra mana regen I'm not getting it from my items and I'm got getting it from the Utility tree. Luckily there's Runes where I can throw in a few mana-regen's.

If you merge Runes and Masteries you lose that. By necessity the strongest bonuses have to be gated behind the highest bar - 9 or the same rune. If I need 9 or the same to get the big bonus I can't afford to go 7+2 mana regen.

Basically this proposed system would remove the only good thing Runes offer us, a strait up freeform method to customize stats in small but important ways. Yes, most people run 9-9-9-3 but there are other options. The big problem is that you need to sink allot of IP before you can play with those options.

Decrit2 votes

Hey, thanks for having stopped here! So, if I understand your point the problem is, among all, that you will lose the possibility to customize in a wider sense the stats, that you are afraid of builds 9-9-9-3 as a way-to-go and that in order to have a wider pool fo stats you have to renounce a strong customization identity, like the one offered by masteries. Well, actually that is what i don' t want either: the whole point of this system, after simplifying the customization system, is to be very flexible and open to various builds!

Let me clarify a thing here, and later on i will edit it in the main post: the tiering bonus you get at 3/6/9 th rune placed scales linearly; this means that if i put on 9 AD seals ( that let' s say gives 3x ad per level bonus total, with x as a number, but remember that can also be other stuff but always scaling linearly!) , compared to 6 AD seals and 3 wathever i only lose the AD bonus of those 3 seals and their tiering bonus ( so i end to get 2x AD per level bonus total, plus the tiering bonus of those other 3 marks ); it' s still less, but as you can see you don' t lose everything and, most of all, those other 3 seals have a meaningful impact on what you have.

So, let' s do an example: you have a 9-9-9-3 build and you want to place some mana regen on that while you have AD-Armor-Ms-movementspeed:

  • First of all remeber that quintessences does not have tiering bonus, so you can safely remove a movement speed quint in order to get something that offers you mana;

  • You like more mov speed? Then let' s go to the glyph section, remove 3 MR ones losing a relative MR tier and let' s place 3 mana regen ones, gaining the respective tier;

  • You hate mages and don' t want to spend seals? Then let' s go to the mark section and remove some AD; maybe you want to be carry, but if you value a bit of mana regen that you will never get from items more useful than AD, which you will get a TON from items, then you are free to proceed and get 3 marks here that will help you gain mana.

I gave you 3 different ( 4 counting armor ) occasions to fit some extra mana regen in your build, while keeping a core customization identity and losing just a tier of stats, more than enough to not be buildbreaking but yet impactful on your games. Up to this also add that i opened the possibility to add alternative suffixes, in such a way some runes can give same stats but different tiering, and you can have other possible build.

Also, if i got it right you are afraid that this system will lose some cool masteries that gives bonuses not statwise, like Blade Weaving. Absolutely not! Because that kind of effect can be gained in two different ways:

  • By gaining tiers with some kind of runes, always with linear increasing power
  • By equipping Quintessences, that exist in this system so they can add extremely cool effects!

Yes, you will have less of them, bot those less have more power and a bigger impact on the game, and as such it *feels * more like as the customization has an actual impact on the game!

Tell me what do you think again! I know by doing this you lose something, like the cool late power of deep expended points in a mastery tree and instead getting something as tier stacking, and i aknowledge i can' t and i don' t want to give everything with a single system because i want it to be more focused.

Thunder Dreamss1 votes

You'll still be limiting choice if you need sets of 3 lesser Runes for optimal stat value. Not as much as needing sets of 9, obviously, but still.

Using Quints as the place to slot in cool effects could work but for the lesser Runes you're left wit ha massive question of what you tie something like Blade/Spell-weaving to. CDR? Hybrid Penetration? I don't think there is a natural fit for basic stats -> cool one off effects.

I suspect that at the point you've done enough work to merge Runes and Masteries you might as well have just started from scratch and built a new system capable of capturing the strengths of both.

If you're going to go crazy why keep any aspect of the current systems? Trying to work around the different types of runes and rather limiting if you want some king of X Runes -> gateway for bigger bonus thing. If anything I'd say a better approach would be Rune slots that hold 3 basic Runes and 1 "Mastery" each. What you put in the slot determines what "Mastery" you can put in the slot on top of them, so you need to mix AP+AD or CDR+AS to get Blade/Spell-weaving, for example. As long as there are ample "Masteries" to chose from and several recipes for each you get good customization and some level of gatewaying for the stronger abilities.

Decrit2 votes

First of all there are no "lesser runes", just standard runes. i dislike runes of different tier ( just in case we drop in misunderstandings ), you were talking about "runes that are placed with a tier lesser than other runes of the same kind"?

Second, about cool effects that have no real place to be, as i said, there are both rune tiers and quintessences that give those effects: taking for example B/S W i can' t think about a real good mark i can tie them to, logically speaking hybrid damage/pen comes to mind but i don' t think that would be really viable; however that is an effect that can be pratically copypasted as a Quintessence. Maybe with some number tweaking, even if with his current power is almost fine as a Quint since there are no more Masteries.

Yes, i tought about making a brand new system but then think about the consequences: if you change a champion skillset or an item you affect only a part of the game, while changing this you modify heavily the game experience of ALL the LoL players. Without not even mentioning all the refound that will succeed and their consequences on the global economy of the game, while on the other side the fact that a new system based on an older one will attract intrest and familiarity makes it a really appetible choice. These are however design bound i have imposed on myself, just to keep the thing challenging and fun :D making a crazyass system is nice, but making it in a way that is pleased by other people is an other challenge on his own.

... i tought a lot about it, eventually. I am deeply invested in lore and i am also a Game Master, and i always tought to myself what the heck are the runes in Valoran, such as theyr use in wars can actually destroy the whole world? I mean ok, magic inscription and such that tratters the magic stability etcetcect but it can also be a concrete, defined consequence and so a concrete, defined cause? I came up in mind with the runes as a composition of signs that represent a force, wathever it might be, and a binding that represent how the tapped power is developed, and put all that in a system that functioned as a class system of a role play game. While thinking about it it came to mind the runes of LoL and i reworked what i developed in a way the two systems can be retconnected. For example, the Critical Chance Mark of the Berserker is a Mark, as such develops power to the exterior, is based on the Life Force because it taps on phisical prowness and his magic trame is tailored using traditional ways of the Berserkers of Lokfar. But that is an other story

It' s a real pleasure, you always point out nice spots! Keep asking :D

Thunder Dreamss1 votes

you were talking about "runes that are placed with a tier lesser than other runes of the same kind"?

I was talking about Runes that are not Quints. Marks/Glyphs/Seals.

As to staying somewhat familiar ... Well we've seen what Riot considers a "Major Rune Rework." Anything of greater scale will probably never be seen. Hence my view "why not get crazy."

The only thing I could imagine moving Riot away from the current Rune system would be an even better IP sink of some kind. It would need to be one that won't push the player base away en mass, so no Rune rentals or anything like that. A massive refund of all Runes ever doesn't matter if everyone now needs 2xIP for Runs 2.0.

Decrit2 votes

Depends on how much Riot values refounds and theyr collateral effects; i wouldn' t care less if i had to re-buy all my runes with some bazillions of ip banked by refounds, but what if that hits hard the champion sale and they lose a whole lot of money that was not supposed to be lost? Not for greed, but also for resource management might be an hard hit.

However yes, we need a better IP sink. I mean, you need a better IP sink because i have a terrible need of IP at all times even if i started to play 2 years ago @_@.

I think that if they do a rune rework, then they will do also a related mastery rework. The two systems are related a lot, and i don' t think they want to keep sparse stats and weird singular effects all over the place: it' s unelegant, it' s undefining and it' s hard to balance. The more i think about it, the more i think in the future they will swap to the talent system actually used by WoW for the masteries /( that are however based on the talent trees of Vanilla WoW, that was based on diablo ), where you only have few talents, 3 for each row, and you only pick one for row.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

Well, yea...runes and masteries are still a mess.

Masteries are balanced around being lvl 30, which is sort alright...but as you already pointed out, you need some of these to be able to jungle on lower lvls. So for me the ideal solution here would be to just unlock 11points of masteries once you hit lvl 5 (should be sufficient to jungle), 10more on lvl 15 and the remaining points on lvl 30...so lower tiers have acess to enough masteries for them to make a difference. Just gaining 1pt/lvl doesn´t have much of an impact and really doesn´t feel all that great.

For Runes I think as pointed out in another thread...investing in T2 runes currently is a complete noob-trap, as purchasing too many T1 Runes is aswell. A fair system here would be to make Runes upgradeable for no extra-costs and maybe even hand out some starting Runes at summoner-lvl 10 for new players to make sure they have access to the basic tools.

Decrit2 votes

You have some really good points and i agree with them, however the problem that masteries and runes are part of an underdesigned system remains: there is still lack of value and game depth once you hit 30. Not a big deal but that could have been done better, that' s why i made this post: to gather ideas about a different system :D

However, for a temporary solution i am for that, maybe also with a bit of orienting tutorial.

Pushover3 votes

The current mastery system reduces the number of choices significantly, and slowly adds more choices as you place more points into the mastery tree. The current rune system could be a little more clear, but it makes choices for a new player much easier by having slots that are better at some things than others. Marks are better at penetration and flat AD than any other slot. Seals are better at armor and mana regen than any other slot. Glyphs are better at magic resist, cooldown reduction, and ability power than any other slot.

While I like the ability to change my stats a little bit to adapt to my lane opponent, change my scaling, etc, part of me thinks that this rune system could get out of hand quickly. I do like the idea of 3 runes forming a set and providing a bonus. At the same time, I think mastery pages are important for allowing more choices for customization without forcing the player to spend money on new runes, and without forcing specific sets of runes. I can have wildly different goals with the same rune page, and my mastery page would reflect that. Flat AP quints, hybrid penetration marks, armor seals and MR glyphs can be used top on a tank, mid on a mage, or bottom on a support. My mastery page is wildly different based on what lane I am in.

The biggest problem I see for new players with suggested systems is that they would be rather intimidating without a large guide, and would require a huge burden of knowledge. Which runes provide what bonuses? What bonuses do I even want on this champion? With mastery page, knowing which masteries are good makes the choices fairly simple for an experienced player. For a less experienced player, they have a great deal of difficulty evaluating which masteries are good, which masteries they should shoot for, and which masteries should just be ignored (does anyone except Ryze and maybe Singed actually take Expanded Mind?). If you don't know a bonus exists, it might create a 'gotcha' moment, which feels bad. If you didn't know Dangerous Game existed as a mastery, and someone lived because of it, wouldn't you be a little angry at the game? Why your enemy lived through the Ignite becomes unclear.

New level 30 players are not really what I would consider 'experienced' at the game, I know that I was not very confident in my play when I was level 30, and I certainly was not above the Bronze level. If all the runes have different effects on them, then you end up telling a new player to make a choice between hundreds of options. It's overwhelming, especially if the runes cost IP. You don't want to make the wrong choice with your hard earned IP. If there are too many combinations that provide different bonuses, then even if the new player has access to all the runes, they have to read a huge list of 100+ different combinations and their bonuses before trying to pick the best one.

I know some people love to brainstorm builds, whether it be for a tabletop RPG, MMO, or even a CCG/LCG deck. But you do this once you are quite experienced at the game. Forcing people through hundreds of choices while they are new to the game is daunting.

One solution I could think of would be to have each set of 3 runes have a choice of several effects. So when you chose 3 armor seals, you would get to pick between choices like -10% damage from critical strikes, -2 damage from basic attacks, or +15 health. When you have a set of 3 sets of armor seals, you would get to choose another larger bonus, such as 10% tenacity, 20% less effective slows, or -4% physical damage taken. That way, when a new player looks to buy runes, they can see what the bonuses are, and see if any of them seem useful on their champion. It reduces, but does not eliminate the increased knowledge required to use the new system.

If something like this were implemented, I would also want to remove a lot of the less common runes. Things like flat mana, energy, crit damage, or even AD/level. This would reduce the number of false choices, as well as help prevent exhausting the design space.

Decrit1 votes

Niiiice feedback! I see that there is the recurring problem of Ip costs. I already told in the post that i did not wanted to resolve the problem to an IP level because that was a matter of resource management, while i took it by the design position. Since i don' t like to be a slacker however i proposed also a set of free runes, without going any deeper, a set of basic stat runes that should be cheaper compared to the exotic ones to convince people not much experienced what to pick and then the exotic ones, with weird ass effects that you have to pay a lot for. I want also to notice that if this system is applied there is going to be a huge reprization of things, mostly rune pages that will act at the place of masteries!

I want to say, however, that i would like to be able to choose the tier effect i want rather buying different runes for each one, but that would be a HUGE impact on IP, a position in which i said i wanted to do neutral choices ( in other words if i had to change prices i had ro add IP consuime in other areas ). Maybe at Riot will be more than happy to remove some IP costs and add an IP sink but that is not up to me to decide, even if in this ipotetic mechanic i want to consider resource management while thinking about design.

This thing could be combined with the idea i proposed in an other post, where i proposed the elimination of tier 1 runes, making the tier 2 runes free since level 10 and making tier 3 runes as usual: the newbie don' t want to mess up with stuff like runes aniway, oce the player gest more involved in the game he can mess up with tier 2 runes in order to get the build feeling then once he hits 20 he is ready and formed to know what to buy and what not. I mean not totally and it might have some issues but still a better preparation than the actual.

I don' t think that there are many owerelming choices. I mean you have a sure-to-go set of runes for each kind that have a clear pourpose; the only thing are Quintessences that might have some weird effects, but if you drop an eye or two by the time you reach 30 you have some kind of idea; however, if you say so then there is at least a good chance that problems can emerge, in the case better add some sure-to.go runes for newbs with lower price.

Pushover1 votes

I'm not sure how well you were playing when you were level 20, but I was familiar with about 3 champions at the time, maining Orianna. I believe the rune page I was aiming for was AP quints, magic pen marks, mana regen seals, and MR/level glyphs. This sounds okay, but not optimal, and most of it came from talking with friends.

The problem with runes is that they don't have a very visible impact on the game. When you lose a fight by 1 autoattack, you usually don't think "I wonder if I could have had a better runepage/mastery page to have lived." You instead go "How could I have played that better?" You don't get feedback on how effective your runes/masteries are until you start a game with the wrong runes/masteries and find out how much it sucks.

Providing 'generic' runes reduces, but does not eliminate many problems. The main problems I see are:

  1. Runes and masteries do not provide clear feedback if they are done right or wrong.
  2. New players at level 20 and 30 don't exactly know what sorts of runes and masteries they actually need, since they are still relatively unfamiliar with the game.
  3. Runes cost IP, leading to worrying about 'wasting' IP on runes that do not work.

I'm not sure how to make 1) better without causing more problems, Dangerous Game, for example, provides a visible gameplay effect, but if a new player does not know what it is, it creates a 'gotcha' moment like I described earlier.

For 2), this problem could be solved a bit by having recommended runes, or a well written guide.

For 3), obviously making runes free would solve the problem, but at the same time it hurts Riot's business model. If we keep the number of different runes needed to play at a minimum, yet still provide mastery-like effects, then new players do not need to buy new runes to have some changes in effects. If runes split to add these new effects, instead of saying "I want armor runes," and buying armor seals, a new player is wondering if they want a rune of +1 armor and +4 health, a rune of +1 armor and -0.1% damage taken or a rune of +1 armor and 0.5 HP/5, or something completely different.

EDIT: ipotetic? Googled it and got 'hypothetical' in Romanian to English, and it makes sense in context, so I'm guessing that's the word you were looking for?

Decrit1 votes

Well, consider that

  1. by making only a rune-based system then your actual runes should also have more power. This means that they will be more effective and impactful, this means they will be less pulverized and invisible, and since the stat has a clear position in the gameplay then you can gather feedback about how you manage with that runeset. For example, let' s say i play Vayne: what is the difference if i build full AD or full AS runes,posed that those in this situation are both viable? In the first case i will have easier last hitting and easier poking power, that compensates since vayne lack a bit for the second, while the second choice increases her absurd duel power and scales well with her getting AD items at the beginning. It will not be world changing, but still it can make a greater impact, and then a depper strategic choice
  2. and 3) are, i can say, almost collegated: about 2) i can say that is not completely true: not because a 20 knows yet the perfect build for all occasions, but because he manages to grasp the identity he must follow ( i am saying this ebcause i see people that at the beginning get thornmail on ashe or ELDER LIZARD ON SORAKA and are pretty much convinced with that ); if we want to aim to perfect mastery then sorry, you will have to wait more and more time after 30 for that, but by adding tiering effects then you can add stuff that better identifies the role of a kind of rune, for example a Resistance Glyph ( or Seal, in my head all the defence stats are exclusively Seals but that is not a thing i wanted to set yet ) can give either scaling, more useful for teamfights, or a magic shield like the hexdrinker that is more useful in laning and skirmisher for assassins that fight mages.
  3. Also as i said of runes are mandatory they should then meet a repricing, or at least giving base sets free depending on what they want to do. I did not quite get the second part tought, could you explain better? :D
Pushover1 votes

  1. Consider someone who uses armor glyphs and magic resist seals. We can easily say that the person could be doing a better job with his runes. But in game, he doesn't realize that his runes could be improved by having a different set, and thinks that he just played a close fight wrong. This is an obvious case for someone looking at his runes, since you can say that a different set of runes is strictly better. But what about the case of AD versus armor penetration? We can generally say that armor penetration makes last hitting harder, but is better at dealing damage to champions than AD. So if a player with AD loses a fight to a player with armor penetration, were their runes set up incorrectly? Were they not playing to their champions strengths? Did they not use a summoner spell at the right time? Any effect that runes and masteries have does change play a little bit, but it's hard to agree whether the runes and masteries used are the 'correct' runes and masteries since there are many ingame factors.

  2. I think this is most easily seen with rune pages. A new ADC player wants to figure out runes. He knows he wants to do damage, so he picks up AD marks and quints, and attack speed seals and glyphs. Can you fault him for not knowing that he should be using armor seals?

  3. I am assuming that you would create different sets of similar runes. It's possible to avoid the design space of similar runes, but difficult. As an example, you are given free runes of armor, that provide +1 armor. However, you look at the store, and see a few different runes that might perform a similar role: rune of -0.5% physical damage taken, rune of +0.5 armor and +0.5 HP/5, or rune of -1 damage from basic attacks. How does a new player decide which of these runes is best for their champion?

It's possible that I misunderstand your system, but in your example, you have crit chance marks, crit chance marks that provide crit damage as well, and then crit chance marks that deal damage more damage if an enemy is running away. It seems like in order to keep the number of options similar to the options provided by a mastery page, you would need to increase the number of different runes, yet still make choices simple and meaningful.

Just about every champion in the game can effectively use armor seals, but for different reasons. Top lane takes it because of minion aggression, and because most top laners deal a fair amount of physical damage. Midlaners take it against assassins, or because they plan to harass using autoattack and fear minion damage, or because they plan to farm Wraiths fairly often. Junglers take them to take less damage from the camps as they clear. ADCs and supports take armor seals because they are against another ADC who uses many basic attacks for damage.

To solve #2, it's possible to either have recommended runes, or have slots that make the runes more effective. For example, perhaps there are 9 offensive slots, 9 defensive slots, and 9 utility slots (and 3 quintessences). Runes placed in the offensive slots have their offensive stats boosted by 25%, so a rune of +1 AD provides +1.25 AD. Same for defensive and utility. That way, there are no more marks, seals, and glyphs, but you still have the option to place defensive runes in offensive slots. If I'm really scared of facing the Garen in lane, I could bring +1 armor runes in my utility slot, but they would only provide +1 armor instead of +1.25 in the defensive slots. That way, a new player gets the idea that they want a rune page that boosts not only what their role is, but also helps them in other ways. This way, it acts a little like how masteries try to get players to go 21 points in one tree, and 9 in another by providing large boosts on the 9th and 21st points in a tree.

Decrit1 votes

A fellow walltexter, see! :D

  1. Runes must not give momentum impact, but strategic impact. If you lose a duel you know that this might be for many and many and many different reasons, that in complex matters way more of your own runes, while runes matters is a duel/engage in case of an impossible perfect duel/engage, that i did not even consider for obvious reasons. However, you already said how runes can be impactful and give feedback: if you have hard time last hitting or poking you might need ad, if you have hard time stacking on hit effects AS, if you want to engage other lanes or you don' t want to pick too much of an offensive stat you might want to pick penetration... in the very end, what i hope for this system is that there is no "perfect" rune for a character, but a perfect rune for you. Maybe you play like a shit going full AD soraka but well, that is a problem of game skill that the runes can' t issue :D

  2. that is a matter of information, experience and guides, but also clarity of the system. Riot should not write guides, but at some point should drop some hints about what runes to pick. This actually happens in the champion spotlights, where they always suggest to pick some sort of defensive runes, but maybe it not the best source to look off; guides should be left to the communities, because Riot needs to be focused more on giving possibility and balance rather than giving possible builds, that are for sure tried in their tests. About system clarity it is said in more than one istance that each kind of rune has is role, and you can pick the same stat from other runes but in an unoptimized way. well, someone must be blind to not see the difference, but early game confusion can always make his victims. There are loads of suggestions, ranging from making a cheap set of rune free or giving base sets or what else. From a system perspective I would like to see the stats not sparsed all over the place but instead being avaiable for a kind or two of runes, in a way that is clear that "if you want this stat you pick these runes, but if you want to risk a lot and bet on that stat there also those here that are less effective but allow you to stack more".

In my opinion there should be only offensive stats in marks, only sustain stats in glyphs and only defensive stats on seals, but that would mess up a lot the current system where you have both armor and mr and i keep that to myself. >_>

Your proposal is really a nice one, and it should be considered in a future system. it' s clear, it' s flexible, it allows many different choices however i also fear there might be too many "narrow stated builds" this way, where we see a talon going FULL AD only ad and while in lane he shots you with a combo. Maybe doing it in a way that the stats falls back the more you put them in different rune types? Like in the mark section AD gives 100%, in the glyph section 50% and in the sigil section a mere 25%, complete with system warning that alerts you what are you doing.

  1. First of all, i don' t want the rune shop to be a statfest of the most impossible kinds: only those that give crystal clear information about their use should be allowed, maybe also with a bit of flavour text that hints at a possible use of them. As i said you don' t decide what' s best for your champion, but what' s best for you while you use a champion. I made the example of crit runes because i had that in mind, however it might not be the best proposal: what is the tactical difference, in the end, from doing more critical damage or having more when the enemy is in the run? The latter works better for ganks and for winning lane and the other deals raw damage, but still we are talking about the same damage, only applied in a different casistic. It' s not what i call strategical. I don' t know in which words put it and i might not be clear, but i want tiering effects to give a net decision about what it does. [ i ended comment spece :P ]
Decrit1 votes

Ok this is the part 2, i try to be brief

As i said, i don' t want a statfest of kind. For example, let' s say that my system is in charge; actually as defensive choices there is magic resistance, armor and health based runes ( just those, to keep it simple ). There exist different kind of runes that gives the same base stat, but different tiering effect.

Let' s forget about the critical rune, that it was just a mechanic example but not with an effect i would like to see; in order to make cool critical related effects first critical itself must be updated. For example we can make an armor rune that, as a tiering effect, reduces the damage from monsters and minions, and we can make an other one that reduces damage from enemy basic attacks; plus there it is the standard armor rune, that gives armor per level as tiering effect. The tactical difference is really clear: one is for when you jungle or when you are afraid of enemy minions, the other if you want to dive deep in early duels, either by challenging a Fiora top or by jumping on an enemy Ezreal with Leona, and the other is general purpose and lategame power. Not only, but it also gives you clear disadvantages: let' s say you want to jungle, with the first one if you want to gank you have to aknowledge that you will take more damage compared to scaling armor rune or attack block rune, but you can afford to farm easier and to have a heavyer presence since thank to the minion block you will be healtyer while ganking. On the other hand having the other kind of rune might give disadvantages at clearing enemy jungle or picking objectives. You can also do a mix of both: let' s say you play master yi jungle and need to farm a lot: you might want to take minion block and maybe a bit of scaling armor, so if you have to gank later in the game you are stronger. Instead a Lee Sin might be more intrested on minion block and 3/6 runes of enemy block if he wants to do early ganks/invade. Or wathever fits your fancy!

Now this is just an example of what it might be; we can also do a armor rune that reduces enemy phisical skill damage, or that increases armor while under a % of HP in order to better survive assassins, the important thing is that must be strictly related to the stats of the rune, that gives clear tactical advantages and disadvantages and that has a crystal clear role.

Pushover1 votes

I guess I can combine problems 1 and 2: Because runes and masteries have a somewhat unclear effect on the game, making the system even more complicated will likely increase the number of unclear but 'bad' choices. To fix this, choices should be obvious. Guides and such would help out quite a bit. Riot could provide a little guidance, like how there are recommended items for each champion, or how Riot recommends champions for specific roles.

I think I suggested this earlier, but why not have tiering effects chosen out of a dropdown menu? That way, instead of having 4 different armor runes that provide different bonuses, you have 1 armor rune that gives you the pick of 4 different bonuses. It keeps the number of runes that people would use down, solving the IP problem (or at least keeping it no more problematic than it currently is). Also, between roles, instead of having to swap to a different rune page, they could simply adjust what bonuses they have. Maybe last game you played a top lane, but now you are jungling. Change an AD tiering bonus to +damage to monsters, and an armor tiering bonus to -damage from monsters. Maybe a movespeed bonus to +movespeed when out of combat, etc.

Decrit1 votes

I think too that would be really really cool! But sadly that means way less IP to spend, then more Ip invested on champion, less champion bought with RP and then i don' t know how much it might hurt Riot sales :P

Something in-between would be getting runes with IP and having tiering effect as you say, but only a base one at the beginning: the others are locked and in order to unlock them you purchase with IP; then you have unlocked that tiering effect for how much you want.

About guides Riot gives various highlights, usually in champion spotlights, but that stuff should be more highlighted u.u

Pushover1 votes

I don't see much of a difference in this versus the current system. If you don't provide free runes, you still need to purchase the armor runes, and as long as some effects are useful, maybe a mage wants to take a few AD runes to get the bonus damage vs minions and monsters, or for a spellblade effect.

Omnipherious2 votes

Want to improve runes? Learn from Infinite Crisis. All slots unlocked from level 1. Even better still, every champion has a default set that is automatically used if you don't have any of your own, ensuring there is no disadvantage in terms of stats between a level 1 and a level 30. These default pages are server side and thus cost the player nothing. There are even runes that improve items e.g. NLR cost reduced by 200, Zhonya active duration +0.5s, Brutalizer CDR +5%; these item improvements all fill 1 slot.

Want a combination of Runes + Masteries? Learn from Dawngate. They use an even more unique tetris-like system that you can check out here. Drag and drop into the space; bottom left icons to cycle through variants. Some pieces even provide passive effects similar to champion passives from LoL.

Both have their merits. The current system in LoL is okay, but the current balance is awful. The ratio between a Primary and Secondary rune is bloody inconsistent going from stat to stat. Additionally, it is ridiculous that even if you could afford a full rune page you are not allowed to fully utilize one until and unless you are level 30; doesn't matter if you've already sunk in the IP for it. You can say that its incentive for progression or to separate veterans from newbies or even to prevent overloading new players with info; at the end of the day it is an unfair system and the same goes for masteries.

A veteran MOBA player could pick up LoL, get into a mirror match and lose lane just because the opponent was higher level and therefore was allowed access to more raw stats. My personal opinion, the first step at fixing runes and masteries should be to make all slots available from the get go. If that's not going to be done, at least fix the ratios between Quints/Primary/Secondary runes so there aren't anymore traps or super/inefficient runes.

Decrit2 votes

Those are cool systems! I just did not wanted to screw up too much the actual one. By the way, i said about hybrid runes as the default ones. Maybe it' s not like Crisis but are a rather good equivalent here.

Omnipherious2 votes

No no, I didn't mean to suggest that the current one should just be scrapped. I meant that inspiration should/could be taken from those two systems. I think the mastery system is quite good as is because it provides real-choices with real requirements. The issue I was trying to address was the double-scaling problem from your OP whereby you are put at a disadvantage simply because of your summoner level.

My two examples had a their own ways of addressing the double-scaling problem; one makes all slots available from the get go AND gives you a default set to make sure you aren't at a disadvantage; the other allows greater freedom in what combination of stats you can get from setups. While these systems aren't perfect, they would be good references for ways in which the current runes/masteries can be tweaked.

Of course as others have mentioned, IP costs and the rune stats need balancing as a start. Masteries are probably less of an issue compared to runes because there aren't really false-choices in masteries unless you count things like being able to take reduced recall time for ARAM.

Decrit1 votes

Then the problem is about unlock by level? It has good and bad points, however: the new player might be disoriented by the sheer number of choices given! Plus i wanted to keep the old level-based scaling.

However it is also true that, with a system so symplified like this one, there is much less confusion so it could be permitted full slots since beeginning, with rune pages unlocked at set milestones ( plus the purchasable ones ) and gaining a free rune for each level, while also keeping the others in the shop. The philosofy is you gain stuff by leveling, you actually feel satisfacted and it gives you the occasion to try something new from a base set ( i mentioned base rune sets earlier, like hybrid or damage dealing increase by very little % ) from the level 10 and onward, while at levels before 10 you unlock summoner spells. It can also be unlocked the level cap, in order that for each level after 30, that always takes a fixed amount of xp, you still gain rune pages and runes ( or maybe only runes... i mean, it takes a lot to level up from 29 to 30 but i don' t want to destroy LoL economy ). There it i9s always the anxiety to waste rune picks, but it can also be saved for later pickings when you are more sure about what to pick. There are still problems about IP pricind and rune guides, but the first can' t be deeply addressed by a design point, the second can' t be addressed by riot if not by making a more balanced system.

Omnipherious1 votes

Allowing players to feel like they are progressing is well and good but there are better ways to do it than by gating power. Let me be clear, fixing noobtrap runes, balancing IP costs and rune stat ratios are all very important and should be addressed first; but there is no reason for literally preventing a player from being as strong as they could be just because they haven't spent enough time on the game.

Even if you could access all runes from level 1, you need to actually buy runes. IP grind for that is going to take a long time as is. Even then, that's runes only; no champions. A completely F2P user needs plenty to of time to sink just earning crap. You don't need to gimp them in terms of runes, masteries or summoner spells.

I mean think about it, what exactly about leveling to 30 earns you the right to +3% damage or 15% tenacity? This isn't an MMO like WoW. If you want to reward players for spending time, reward them for playing champions they like.

e.g. You've played 100 games with Warwick, you've unlocked Warwick's Feast mastery which gives you an additional +1hp and mp on kill. OR you've unlocked Warwick's AD Mark, if you're running regular AD marks it gives you +0.2 AD per champion level while you play Warwick.

That's the type of encouragement players should have for leveling. Your motivation for leveling shouldn't be so that you can hit the max and finally be on par.

This is a game of skill after all, why should a good player that isn't level 30 yet be disallowed from accessing all the possible stats? Would you ever say to a soccer player, "Yo, you're a beginner so you're not allowed to wear cleats. Those guys over there who have been playing at this club for 3 months, they get to wear cleats.", no you wouldn't because it would be ludicrous. Making everything available may overwhelm new players, yes, but at least they have the option to fully utilize it when they are ready.

Decrit1 votes

Here we enter in a totally different topic, a spiky one indeed. The best solution ever would be just totally remove masteries and runes, and make the IP useful only for purchasing champions so the skill, as you say, it' s always even either you are 1 or 30 and the power is determinated only by the match you play. But we have runes and masteries. I did not wanted to disembowl everything also because it' s a mechanic with his own potential AND we will have, in a way or in an other, IP sinks and grind. Deal with it.

Why? because, for how much Riot tries, this is still a f2p game and the economycs is based on that. I f you want to avoid IP sinks, pay: it' s not like it is the end of the world, i mean you pay for, like, EVERY GAME EVER so if you pay on this one in order to shorten and enjoy better the game times i don' t see nothing bad on that ( with the exception of runes because Riot does not want to allow power buying ).

About the rune stuff:i said it could be possible that you have unlocked since beginning a full set of basic runes, see OP, that are not optymized but are good for a player that wants to try the game and have fun ( because in the very end runes matter really few, even with this system ) so you have some early basic power, and then you can get the runes you like by leveling. How you level? By playing characters. What characters? The one you want most.

Colonel J2 votes

Rune tiers should not exist.

Worgslarg1 votes

You level up and are able to put runes for free, but with some unlocking with IP.

So you're saying that some runes are free at certain levels, and others must be unlocked?

Decrit2 votes

Yes. For example at the beginning you have unlocked only one or two runes for each kind, and then you can unlock the others by purchasing one ad one/ purchasing the whole set / purchasing a tier, will depend.

For example at the beginning an account could have avaiable hybrid runes, and then can buy specialized runes later; this because by giving general purpose ones the newbie is more prone to try different characters, or to just use the same page for different characters; in this way at the beginning it has not such a different raw power, and later one when he will be more involved on the game he can purchase runes and optimize them as he likes. Maybe will be not efficient, but still better than going without runes because you don' t know what to get, right?

Only exception will be Quintessences, that at least on my mind must be always purchased ( or maybe the default ones give a little buff, like increase damage by 1% and reduce by 1%).

Now i was strict about the runes avaiable but this can be amplied as much as the developer feels.

BillDance1 votes

im sorry but I have to disagree with you on this idea.. I think the way it is setup is just fine.. the only thing I see that could use adjustment is getting runes.. its very expensive to get multiple pages and many people play ranked without full pages ... and that is bad... I don't have a fix suggestion but that is an issue

Decrit2 votes

I have absolutely not dealt with the rune page issue, and i must say that it is a problem.

Consider that in the ipotetic case this metod is applied rune prices have to change, and multiple rune pages must be favored in some way, so probably we would see an increased rune price and a decreased rune page price, while some runes would be free. Actually, in this way it' s favoured initial games because you have runes and stuff since beginning, even if not perfect; however i feel your problem bro, and know that i keep in mind high IP costs while thinking this just to be safe.

Hellioning1 votes

I think that runes should be removed from the game. I know why they exist, to promote buying champs with RP and runes with IP, but it mainly makes life difficult for new players, having to decide between actual fun things (champs) or minor statistical differences (runes)

Earl Eulrich2 votes

I sure think they offer some gameplay-choices aswell currently, so they are not only there to force people to sepnd IP on them. You can go all out early-game with your runes, you can go very defensive aswell...you can go lategame-oriented, you can even take suboptimal runes just to have better cleartimes early on in the jungle. So I don´t think they shoul be deleted, as they still add sth. to the game - but the System sure should be cleared from the noob-traps (T2-runes) and a proper tutorial has to be added for new players.

Alice Twilight1 votes

I took the same survey so allow me to post the quick responses that I had at the end. I think my responses can basically be put down here without need for explanation.

If you have any other comments about any of the topics discussed in this survey, please enter them here:

So IP gets mentioned a lot but I feel that none of the questions really address my personal IP situation. Basically I've gotten to the point where I have too much IP and nothing to spend it on. I have all the champions (except Sion whom I refuse to buy until rework) and all the useful runes. Note that I said useful because the majority of the runes are pretty piontless. Since runes were mentioned this seems like a good segue, not only are they too expensive for new players they have other issues 1. Tier 1 and 2 runes are completely pointless since they become obsolete very quickly 2. There's a lot of bad runes meaning new players are likely to make bad rune purchasing decisions.

If you have any other comments about League of Legends in general, please enter them here:

The out of game meta leveling system is bad and needs to be replaced with some sort of other out of game progression system, on top of that masteries need a complete overhaul and to supplement both those changes (as well as a change that just needs to happen) the game needs a much more comprehensive tutorial. Lore is also still an abysmal mess.

Decrit2 votes

Iiiiiiii did not took any survey :P Aniway nice to know ^_^ Since we are in topic, with the exotic runes mechanic you would have a load more of IP to spend! Like champion, those can be added later to expand the build possibilities ( without making thrash runes ) thanks to the adding of new tiering effects, like our champion releases! Plus i never mentioned runes of different tiers, just runes that activate different tiering. I hate tier 1 and 2 runes.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

I feel that for runes to be TRULY customizable, the best solution would be flat and percentage rather than flat and scaling. Example:

Health runes. you should choose between flat health (for the early game) or choose percent health runes (for the late game) By doing this, the flat can be increased to stringer number, making them better choices for snowball champions, but the percentage could out weight them for a slow champion who is strong later.

Decrit1 votes

I think instead that percentage runes would only complicate things: this because they add power either at the ebginning and at the end of the game AND either don' t do almost anything because you don' t get more items of the same stats or they give out HUGE amounts of stats because you stack the same stat. Think about assassins, with percentage as a way to go they would drop absurd numbers. Not only with stat per level mechanics you have a clear and concise explanation of how it works and how it can be used, but it has a gated power that is indifferent from the items you buy.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

Flat is inherently minor however - No matter what happens, even scaling, will fall off late, and be less than an item - which, as the phrase suggests, means their are less important than an item. The ONLY exception to this is early game, when the items are comparatively weak to the runes. So as long as runes are flat, they will be early game focused only.

The only way to fix this would be to just multiply the numbers of all runes - which would widen the gaps of power (something that is only a little better would be X times that amount better, as an example)

See my point?

Decrit1 votes

Well, flat runes ARE for focused early power. Or for little doses of stats that you need at early game at a fixed point then no more, like mana regen :P they are made to be this way, and it' s right for them to fall lategame.

About multiplied runes you want to close the gap between scaling and flat by increasing the power of flst ones, or straightly increas ethe number of all runes? I still have issued to perfectly understand what is your point @_@ ( however remember that in my system scaling ad runes does exist no more, but are rather a tiering effect of AD runes ).

If it' s the first case then i go against you, because taking flat stat is a risk, and as such it must have it' s payment. If the second case i am already with you, because the good thing about making only runepage is that the numbers of the runes WOULD go up, to compensate the loss of Masteries, by either straight increased power and tiering effects :D

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

My comment can be TL;DR'd to this:

Flat Runes - Strong 0-10 minutes. Every minute of game time, they matter less.

Scaling Runes - Strong between 10 and 20 minutes. Then they fall off.

My point: the majority of a (what in my opinion) is a good game occurs long after runes ceased to matter (I play a lot of, and very much enjoy, 35-50 minute games.) - so, runes just don't MATTER, the sole exceptions being Lifesteal, Spell vamp, and Percent Health Runes. My original post was that Runes should be flat, and strong enough to matter for at least the first 20 minutes, and Percent (rather than scaling) for the late game. Some good points have been made against this idea, but its my view of how to diversify rune selections.

Decrit1 votes

I understood, but i still belive that % stat increasing runes are not the right way. This because in that way you "rabadonize" your builds, making it more monostat based, while the most intresting stuff happens when you mix them, with a core stat but with others that are still needed to make the champion work. Plus that would bring a lot of unbalance consequences and champions like Veigar that end to explode in a very toxic-gameplay wise way. However there can be other ways, like exponential-increasing stats.

Also, i want to repeat that with a rune only based system those are more powerful. This means that they will have higher numbers, maybe not double but something , and so you can tailor your build in order to have a bigger impact on the first 20 minutes ( also end-early game), in the late game with high scaling effects ( but always level based ) and a mix in between in order to better accomodate your power spikes.

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

My worry, however, with increasing the flatt amounts, is that champions who abuse them already will do so that much more.

You ever see a top lane udyr, starting FULL ad page and a red pot? you gonna die. If we increase the amount of flat damage, this will become ever worse (ok, non-meta example...but things like that could get out of hand and FAST)

Decrit1 votes

Legit worry. Very very legit worry. However, consider that you also start with more powerful runes, so the power balances. Now, early game a udyr in duel as you say DESTROYS you pretty bad, but this does not mean you can' t outplay him. If he does not get kills and let his buff expire then he pretty much wasted his early gold, and even if you are forced toa fight you still have more powerful offensive and defensive runes. Still worrysome, i agree, but that sould balance itself out.

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