Death's Dance gets added; Will of the Ancients gets removed?

Vekkna·Apr 8, 2016·123 votes·11,587 views

heals from AAs, physical abilities, Fervor of Battle damage, Sheen procs, minion damage, BotRK and other physical on-hit effects and item actives

heals from AAs, all abilities, all keystone mastery damage, all Sheen item procs, minion damage, BotRK and all other on-hit effects, Liandry's damage and all spell effect damage

heals from abilities only

Of these three, Riot says is the only one that is fundamentally impossible to balance and is being removed from the game.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

P.S. I'm not suggesting that is OP. I love building the item when I can, and I think it's a lot of fun! On the other hand, always felt bad and worthless outside of ARAMs. If was the problem, give the vamp an internal cooldown to match the other items' lower healing through build path. It's really not hard.

168 Comments

Dominick DestineApr 8, 20168 votes

Wait what the EFF

When was this announced? is this official? why are they removing Will of the Ancients? I used it all the time to great effect with Evelynn. I hope this is a troll post.

Evidence of my WotA Evelynn usage; http://www.lolskill.net/summoner/NA/Dominick%20Destine/matches?filterChampion=28&filterQueue=

FUCK, I just started doing drain-tank Evelynn and it was awesome.... I guess my core build will have to use Death's Dance now... just like every other person's core build on every other character, sigh.

VekknaApr 8, 20162 votes

Spell Vamp -

We're killing Spell Vamp from the item system. We've been unable to get this statistic to be purchased on anyone but Vladimir and his tuning has always been lockstep with it. None of the Spell Vamp changes made throughout the years have been able to break this stranglehold.

Hextech Gunblade will keep it's "Omnivamp" passive - as it is seeing good use as being an effective life steal and spell vamp item for hybrid centric playstyles. Runes and Keystone choices will also retain the ability to acquire Spell Vamp.

Note: Vlad will have a major update in the same patch and has been tuned around the lack of Spell Vamp in the item system.

Will of the Ancients •Removed from the game.

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/04/red-post-collection-state-of-season.html#more

Dominick DestineApr 8, 201611 votes

{quoted}

•Removed from the game.

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/04/red-post-collection-state-of-season.html#more

Mother fornicating son of a hairless goat.

Thanks a lot Riot [slayer-jinx-unamused]

VekknaApr 8, 201614 votes

I mean...gunblade is a million times better than either of the other two on her anyway. Not only because of hybrid damage but also hybrid on-hits, the active slow for when Qs go haywire or they're out of range, and the double scaling on abilities and AAs.

Dominick DestineApr 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I mean...gunblade is a million times better than either of the other two on her anyway.

Correct, but you have to pour it on.

Gunblade alone merely sustains you, if you add the MR-ignoring WotA, you can out-drain a lot of non-burst character's damage. I.e. you can outsustain the damage from tanks if they're alone... and you can assassinate non-tanks if they're alone.

The only characters that can defeat drain-tank Evelynn are juggernaut and pseudo juggernaut types like Irelia Fiora Darius Jax everyone else gets destroyed.

Not only because of hybrid damage but also hybrid on-hits, the active slow for when Qs go haywire or they're out of range, and the double scaling on abilities and AAs.

That is also correct.

Gunblade is wildly underrated on Evelynn, I always liked it on her (Been playing her since S2) but recently it became my core item. Drain-tank Evelynn with red smite is just glorious... if the game goes on long enough, item 3146 item 3152 item 3001 item 3157 item 3020 item 1414 Evelynn fucking brutality incarnate.

Assassinate ADCs very easily. Outduel tanks. Get murdered by Jax.

Surprisingly hard to kill in team-fights while almost always having highest damage output on either team. NOTE: If you save your ult until mid-team fight.... when you ult, you get your shield PLUS with Gunblade and WotA, the health swing is so high that its... ridiculous. /moan I can't believe they're removing WotA, FUUUUUU

JVP15Apr 8, 20164 votes

Get murdered by Jax.

Who doesn't?

MLDzXnRRRApr 8, 20168 votes

Vladimir Akali Ryze abuse so much spellvamp and the rest of the ap users can't get good spellvamp items.

VekknaApr 8, 201648 votes

That's Riot's explanation, but it makes no sense. They're leaving Gunblade for Akali and Jax, so Akali can't be the problem.

Vladimir Ok, so I'm really failing to see how this is much or any different than Olaf Aatrox XinZhao Nasus who still have kit-based healing, hard diving potential, and in Olaf's case a cc immunity and longer range. All while having access to items that allow them to heal in bursts from abilities and/or sustained healing from AAs. It's illogical to say that Vlad is a special problem, because he's not.

Ryze is a problem with WoTA but KogMaw with Gunblade isn't?

The entire point of this thread is that Riot's explanation is 100% contradicted by AD champs who are allowed to have absurd healing from items on top of absurd heaing in their kits.

Moreover, AD healing champs are allowed to stay broken as fuck for months on end with only love taps here and there (Mundo, Xin, Warwick, Trundle), and hybrid healing abusers are getting no change at all (Akali, Jax being broken as fuck). But yeah, we better delete WoTA because it's so problematic.

VerdadeApr 8, 20165 votes

Spellvamp on Vlad/Akali/Swain/Cassi is fine because they do somewhat sustained DPS, much like ADCS, olaf, AAtrox, and Xin do.

If you put Spellvamp on Viktor, Lux, LB or something like that, it would become instantly broken due to their nature. Got it?

WimbledofyApr 9, 201612 votes

yeah it's so broken none of those champs like lux even buy it because if they did the game would explode.

RetillinApr 9, 20163 votes

Before the Mid Year Mage Update, try it on Veigar. It's great! Late game you can start building him as a tank once your stacking gets up there a bit.

lunienApr 9, 20161 votes

Not many immobile mages actually need to steal HP (except Vlad and Ryze, and maybe someone like Kennen or Cho'Gath), because they're not supposed to tank dmg or go 1v1. They don't need the spellvamp, because they shouldn't lose a lot of HP, and their primary job is to stay in the backline and help their team out with ranged dmg and CC, and try and outplay their opponents from afar.

Trundle BundleApr 9, 20164 votes

ADCs aren't supposed to tank damage or go 1v1. With meta enforcement they don't even have to lane 1v1. Not every ADC is 500 range, and not every mage is 1k Range.

Sightless66Apr 9, 20166 votes

That's Riot's explanation, but it makes no sense

It doesn't? It makes sense to me. Wota is an item that literally only Vlad buys, and the only times in the past that it has been an acceptable spell vamp option for more than just Vlad, Vlad was super cheesy with it. Gunblade is a viable situational purchase on more than just Akali. Wota is arguably the single most champion-locked item in the game. If spellvamp as a stat isn't actually going to be an option for anyone except like 2 champions, it's not necessary to have as an item and a better paradigm for it should be found. Better to remove an item and redesign the offending champion than having it only serve as a trap for every other champion that might want to buy it.

The entire point of this thread is that Riot's explanation is 100% contradicted by AD champs who are allowed to have absurd healing from items

I don't think it is. The problem with spell vamp is that it is incredibly locked to a very small number of champions. AD healing items don't have that problem. They're general purchases.

Actually, in the past, they had a Twisted Treeline item called Lord Van Dam's Pillager (an old version of the item), and it had AD spellvamp, and they pulled it for exactly the same reason they're pulling WOTA now. It was champion-locked, so it wasn't worth having, and they temporarily delted.

Hopefully, they find a way to add spell vamp that actually makes it a real option, instead of just a "Vlad build this" item.

Hinagiku33Apr 10, 20163 votes

While I'm fine with removing WOTA...

...it's really hard to cite Vlad as the reason that Spellvamp can't work when these changes are coming out with Vlad's rework. You'd think they could just fix Vlad's problems and then make Spellvamp somewhat comparable to the insane healing of Lifesteal...

Count ZubatApr 8, 201632 votes

Meanwhile there are AD champs like Olaf, Aatrox and Kindred who have built in sustain and it doesn't make life steal broken. AD carries are healing fcking 300 health per auto late game while AP's aren't even allowed to have reasonable spell vamp choices. I'd call that bullshit, it's just favoritism.

GhastlyGhoulManApr 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Iwul,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=snZENKZX,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-04-08T18:25:10.056+0000)

Meanwhile there are AD champs like Olaf, Aatrox and Kindred who have built in sustain and it doesn't make life steal broken. AD carries are healing fcking 300 health per auto late game while AP's aren't even allowed to have reasonable spell vamp choices. I'd call that bullshit, it's just favoritism.

But on all of these champs, their means of utilizing lifesteal is the same: auto attacks. And an auto attack is an auto attack (unless you're Graves), so it's really easy to balance lifesteal widely.

Spells, on the other hand, not only have 1. Different scalings depending on champs, but different methods of dealing damage. There's 2. massive AOE's, 3. DoT's, 4. Single target spells, and all of these are on varying 5. Cooldowns, some spells much more spammable than others.

With all of these factors, they HAVE to make it either A. An essentially useless stat, meaning it should just be removed from the game to make way for better stats, or B. They have to make the few champs who would abuse this stat with highly spammable and resourceless spells essentially useless until they get this stat in their build... which makes their laning until reaching 1200g a harsh lesson in masochism. These champs are, in other words, being held back balance-wise by spell vamp being a stat. By removing it, they can actually be balanced to not be miserable to play as for the first 10 minutes of a game.

I do wish though that there were a way for mages to have some sort of sustain. There's got to be a way. Maybe an item that heals like 10-20 health every time you cast a spell and hit someone (only activates once per spellcast, and only procs off of hitting one champ). This way, no DoT and AoE can abuse it, and you can't just spam spells into the nether - you have to hit someone. (Numbers would be subject to change)

Count ZubatApr 10, 20162 votes

All those things you mentioned about spells would make sense if not one, single item, that again, shows Riot's AD favoritism: item 3812 , which is a freaking item 3152 for AD champions on stereoids. Same as WotA, it provides offensive stat and cooldown reduction, but it's physical vamp is actually better than WotA's spell vamp because it works with both spells and auto attacks, and on top of that, Death's Dance has also an anti-burst passive. AD champions have both long range spells (like Varus Q), AOE spells (like Talon's E and R), and spammable spells (like Urgot's Q). The only type of damage that is kinda exclusive to AP champions is DoT (at least I can't think off an AD champion with such ability) and I don't believe it could break spell vamp if it was overall better stat than now. Sorry, Riot favorise AD in terms of sustain items, freaking Death's Dance shows it the best, the one item that AP champs could only dream of, but AD's still got it.

GhastlyGhoulManApr 10, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord of Iwul,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=snZENKZX,comment-id=0003000100010000,timestamp=2016-04-10T08:04:07.123+0000)

All those things you mentioned about spells would make sense if not one, single item, that again, shows Riot's AD favoritism: , which is a freaking for AD champions on stereoids. Same as WotA, it provides offensive stat and cooldown reduction, but it's physical vamp is actually better than WotA's spell vamp because it works with both spells and auto attacks, and on top of that, Death's Dance has also an anti-burst passive. AD champions have both long range spells (like Varus Q), AOE spells (like Talon's E and R), and spammable spells (like Urgot's Q). The only type of damage that is kinda exclusive to AP champions is DoT (at least I can't think off an AD champion with such ability) and I don't believe it could break spell vamp if it was overall better stat than now. Sorry, Riot favorise AD in terms of sustain items, freaking Death's Dance shows it the best, the one item that AP champs could only dream of, but AD's still got it.

Hm. Good point lol. I completely overlooked that. Yeah.... I got nothing. Come on Rito, y u do dis to us?

GottedApr 8, 20168 votes

Yeah sooooo many champs build WotA -.-

ArakadiaApr 8, 201666 votes

So we should remove it? I NEVER see people use OhmWrecker...

Auz the RipperApr 8, 201636 votes

i think the only reason Riot hasn't removed Ohmwrecker is that even they legitimately forgot it exists

DrOinkleBerryApr 9, 201621 votes

Or maybe because they MUST have an item named Ohmwrecker in order to honor the man it's named after? That's apart of the deal of recruiting thousands of players to the game, he gets an item if he asked for it, period.

maikokkApr 9, 20164 votes

yes. as a former vlad main im glad to see it go. so sick of one of my favorite champs being balanced around a bad item that is only marginally good on him

ArakadiaApr 9, 20163 votes

Why not rework it or open up options? There are other ways to fix it rather then getting rid of it.

ElikainApr 9, 20162 votes

Vladimir is now going to receive a proper update to his Q that will feel appropriately rewarding, in a world where he isn't balanced around Spell Vamp. For years now, Spell Vamp was either a go to for mages because it was good and completely nuts for sustain mages or when nerfed, never an option for mages and an absolute must for sustain mages. Sustain mages were balanced around this item and this kept their performance very limited and never rewarding. It's like they were always playing catch up with the rest of the team.

Sustain mages (who in game are now resourceless champions - Vlad, Katarina, Akali) don't have access to Spell Vamp from items which keeps them out of this system that they can abuse because they don't pay for their spells and mages are getting a new Catalyst effect that heals them the more mana they spend. In the future, the lack of Spell Vamp will actually enable Riot to appropriately attach fair health gain mechanics on skills rather then limiting the rewards according to the best case scenario that often leaves you feeling worthless without the item in question.

I think this is a pretty fair trade to make.

ArakadiaApr 9, 20161 votes

I dunno... It's like when they removed mana pots. There won't be a huge difference in the end, but I wish it didn't change.

ElikainApr 9, 20162 votes

That's exactly my point. People don't like the change because something is changing. The overall effect will be just a different experience that will need getting used to and it definitely will not destroy mages (like people claimed removing mana pots will kill them as well). The majority of complaints are based on the premise: "Change is bad and we don't want things to change because we don't like it".

This isn't a fair argument to make.

ArakadiaApr 9, 20161 votes

WoTA just seemed pretty cool and it's sad to see ADC's get super sustain and not have to back except for buying while AP has to back often.

And I don't know if I can forgive you for not saying the following quote:

"Change is good". Khazix

ElikainApr 9, 20162 votes

I wanted to but in the end i forgot. And i don't think i am necessarily right with my argument, i am just excited to see new things added in League and am not particularly fond of just hopping on the forums and see a bunch of upvoted posts, basically complaining about the changes for no reason.

And i appreciate that you are being a sport about this and at least acknowledging that fact. It's nice to see not everyone on the boards is a 12 year old kid who can't be reasoned with logic.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Ulquiorra995Apr 9, 20165 votes

No one built item 3508 either. But since it's an item for AD champions they too their time to rework it into the place where it's an optimal pick for many champions.

And just to pour salt in the wound, while mages, who use spells as their main damage source are losing any hope of ever benefiting from spell vamp, guess who still gets to heal off their abilities? item 3812 That's right! AD carries and assassins!

GottedApr 9, 20161 votes

You heard it here first boys. No one built ER. LOL. Some people shouldn't get a share of the air.

Ulquiorra995Apr 9, 20168 votes

I guess you weren't here for the original Essence reaver. Well, since you're faster on insults than on actually checking your facts, let me help you. Here's how it looked:

Recipe: Pickaxe + Vampiric Scepter + 950 = 2650
+50 AD +10% life steal +10% cooldown reduction Unique Passive: Your basic attacks restore mana equal to between 2% and 8% of the physical damage dealt, based on your missing mana.

This item saw almost no use except for an occasional Ezreal - at the point where you finished it you'd benefit far more from having a completed IE or BT instead. But instead of scrapping it it got reworked.

Now, I'm not an expert game designer - but something doesn't generally get reworked because it's in a good/healthy state. But hey - obviously you know better than Riot. Why didn't you tell them that everyone built it before the rework? I'm sure they'd have listened to your professional opinion backed up by hard facts.

LilxPaprikaApr 8, 20164 votes

Of these three, Riot says is the only one that is fundamentally impossible to balance and is being removed from the game.

^^my thoughts exactly... what gets me is that they claim it was too difficult to balance.

its like saying lets remove crit from the game because yasuo is too good with it.

posted extensively on this here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/c9QiQyX1-im-fine-with-removing-wota-from-game

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 201616 votes

People seem to be confused on what is so complex about spell Vamp. Spell Vamp isn't hard to balance because Vlad exists. Its the other way around. SpellVamp in of itself is a problem and it ends up dragging champs is is core with down with it.

Spellvamp has the caviat of either being negligeable of too effective depending on the champ because spells work so differently. First off, spells do way more damage and are also way less consistent than an auto attack for example. And Ap scales way harder than AD. This means that safe poke mages would be broken with spellvamp, which is why the AOE restriction exists on top of the % restriction. The problem is this makes it basically pointless on them. The amount of healing versus the amount of spells and time it is taking them to heal and the amount of healing per spell is too awkward to adequately scale, especially on mages in particular who specialize in AoE and burst damage, would probably be best of not sustaining so much to begin with in terms of game health.

Same applies to DoT damage, because then you are healing off of not doing anything and on a refreshed consistency and potentially from a huge amount of champions similar to AoE, so DoT's got a cap on it also basically making ti useless on them.

This leaves single target none-DoT, None Skillshot spells, which are not only atypical, but Riot has been making a trend of removing them from the game due to there low interactivity and lack of counterplay.

I.E Ryze Q, Veigar Q etc.

Whats more is that on those champions, the stat would end up overbearing.=, which means the champs that were left to build it were typically the ones that happen to synergise with it the best to ridiculous effect and were subsequently nerfed to oblivion around the fact that they build this one stat.

This makes the stat more of a chore than a stat, since it accounts for nothing more than a needless wrench to balance 2 or so champions that would be better off with compensation buffs to properly balance them and free up an item slot instead of being pidgeon held into the fact they build this one item no one else does.

LilxPaprikaApr 8, 20165 votes

{quoted}

People seem to be confused on what is so complex about spell Vamp. Spell Vamp isn't hard to balance because Vlad exists. Its the other way around. SpellVamp in of itself is a problem and it ends up dragging champs is is core with down with it.

they use vlad as a scapegoat because the fact is there is no good reason for saying it can't be balanced.

please by all means what's problematic about it. And please don't say its the AOE.
aoe could easily be fixed with this: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/TaXPYTao-spellvamp-100-scale-on-aoe-but-with-100-cap-as-thoughwas-singletargetoverlap-w-current-equation

its a design choice you either want it in the game or don't but don't blame vlad. I'm all for removing it for change but I don't care for made up reasons.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 201614 votes

{quoted}

they use vlad as a scapegoat because the fact is there is no good reason for saying it can't be balanced.

please by all means what's problematic about it. And please don't say its the AOE.
aoe could easily be fixed with this: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/TaXPYTao-spellvamp-100-scale-on-aoe-but-with-100-cap-as-thoughwas-singletargetoverlap-w-current-equation

its a design choice you either want it in the game or don't but don't blame vlad. I'm all for removing it for change but I don't care for made up reasons.

read the rest of my post.

Vlad isn't a scape goat. Vlad is a victim of the stats existence.

LilxPaprikaApr 8, 20165 votes

{quoted}

read the rest of my post.

Vlad isn't a scape goat. Vlad is a victim of the stats existence.

if a lot of the points you make were really the case then item 3812 item 2140 would have the same flaws. if they can make dd to work they can make wota work. https://static3.businessinsider.com/image/535d0faa69bedd2f1b0393e3-960/ron-howard-mother-apollo-13.png "If they could get a washing machine to fly, my Jimmy could land it."

as for dot being an issue. wota brand and malz were never op. worst comes to worst make dots less effective.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20162 votes

No because single target Physical based AD moves are basically none existent, and the champions building it are building lifesteal anyway.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg

Death's Dance passive isn't a stat, the same way Hextech's isn't a stat, its a passive, and unlike Wota isn't being removed.

It isn't accumulative and doesn't get bolstered or multiplied by other items. Its static. This is on top of the fact that as mentioned, AD doesn't scale nearly as hard as AD does.

And what does Elixir have to do with any of this? Its a consumable. Also, it only probs on champions, unlike Vamp.

If you can't see the inherent difference between the two i dont know what to tell you.

as for dot being an issue. wota brand and malz were never op. worst comes to worst make dots less effective.

You missed the point. The reason they were never OP is because they were restricted to begin with, making them mostly pointless, giving less of a reason for the stat to exist since it basically exists for 2 champions.

Literally no one buys Wota but Vlad lol. Even Akali prefers Hextech, which is going unchanged and not losing its hybrid vamp thing.

ArakadiaApr 8, 20161 votes

Couldn't you make WoTA heal a flat amount per spell? Of course machine gun mages like Cass would be broken, so give it a short CD. I don't see anything wrong with this except that some champions like Veigar who use a short combo to burst someone then wait their long cool downs can't get much use of it. But not every Mage can make use of every item.

VekknaApr 8, 20165 votes

The most frequent suggestion is to just have vamp heal for a fixed percentage of the tooltip damage regardless of how many targets it hits.

So if LeBlanc's Q is 100 base plus 60 from AP, she heals for 15% of 160. If Katarina's Q has the exact same numbers, she heals for 15% of 160 whether she hits 1 target or 5.

Or if Katarina does 100 damage with her W against one enemy champ, she heals for 15 hp instead of the current 5hp. Against a full 6-minion wave, she would heal for 15 hp instead of the current 30hp.

Katarina can heal for stupid amounts when pushing waves because she gets 25-35% of her tooltip values as healing against 5-7 targets. But she heals for 5% of tooltip damage in a duel because all her abilities are tagged aoe (except E which does shit damage). So the stat's useful for staying on the map but not for combat.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is Cassiopeia, who deals nearly all of her damage through single-target spell spam. She also has built-in hp sustain, but she's mana-gated. She heals for a fuck-ton in duels, but you can't find a single person that will say she's broken OP because she can abuse spellvamp.

Vlad cheeses the stat from both ends. This is literally the only reason that he has a broken interaction with spellvamp. He heals too much in lane by hitting 4+ targets per E for 20-40% of the tooltip value while still getting the full 15% tooltip value from his single-target Q.

Coincidentally Akali does the same thing as Vlad. Single-target in duels for the 15% tooltip value, aoe in minion packs for 20-40% tooltip value. The only other champ who can accomplish this in lane for less than 3400g is Morgana, who has both mana, high cooldowns, and her single-target Q is both a skillshot and has a strategic reason to save it.

Riot could have solved the problem in exactly 2 steps:

Spellvamp on Hextech Revolver applies a flat % based on tooltip value, no scaling with targets
Make Vlad's Q a skillshot and make his kit healing a heal over time

It Hertz When IPApr 9, 20163 votes

Making Vlad's Q a skillshot is wrong on so many levels, and has been brought up and dismissed before. HoT would clear his laning phase of some issues but shit all over his dueling potential.

I'm not saying Transfusion doesn't need work, but what you're proposing wouldn't fix the core issues. His biggest issue with spellvamp is actually his E; with spellvamp and some CDR he can spam it endlessly near enemies without cost, boosting his self-healing with each cast thereby exacerbating the problem. It would be like if Ezreal's passive was a manaless ability under his control; imagine trying to ever balance around that. Rework his E and change his Q's interaction with self-healing, and bam, problem solved without ever removing WotA.

VekknaApr 8, 20168 votes

No because single target Physical based AD moves are basically none existent

Single target magic spells are also pretty rare Annie Cassiopeia Kennen Leblanc Teemo Elise Kassadin

Physical single-target skills that don't apply lifesteal are pretty equal:

Ezreal Jhin Nocturne Pantheon Quinn Riven Udyr Urgot XinZhao

Death's Dance passive isn't a stat, the same way Hextech's isn't a stat, its a passive, and unlike Wota isn't being removed.

WoTA actually is a passive. But why not remove the vamp stat and leave a decent WoTA with a unique passive, then?

It isn't accumulative and doesn't get bolstered or multiplied by other items. Its static.

Bolstered and multiplied? You mean like crit, attack speed, and cooldown reduction? Or the free AD some champs get, like Zed, Riven, Darius, Jhin?

AD doesn't scale nearly as hard as AD does.

False. AD values tend to be lower, but AD ratios tend to be higher. Like Pantheon's old 3.6 bonus AD ratio on E. Just for reference, the AP ratio on Katarina's entire ability rotation and a full 2.5 sec channel ultimate combined was 3.6 (prior to recent Q buff). Lee Sin's Q has a 2.0 ratio, which is 2-3x higher than the ratio on most mage's ultimates. Seriously just stop with that excuse because it's not true at all.

Literally no one buys Wota but Vlad lol.

Right. Because it doesn't heal for much, unlike all the other healing items ADs and hybrids can use regardless of how much healing is in their kit.

Even Akali prefers Hextech, which is going unchanged and not losing its hybrid vamp thing.

Exactly. Some of the biggest abuse cases are going unchanged, but they're deleting a bad item from the game instead of making it usable. This makes even less sense when Vlad is already being reworked and could have been uncoupled from the item very easily with a kit-based stat conversion. (eg vamp % increases his kit healing by that % rather than actually applying the vamp effect, basically an offensive version of Spirit Visage).

If you can't see the inherent difference between the two i dont know what to tell you.

There is no difference, which is why you don't know what to say.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20163 votes

Single target magic spells are also pretty rare

Yes, i already mentioned this. The difference here is that again, on top of the fact that AP scales way harder than AP, Mages in general having obscene amounts of sustain is screwed by the consistency of the spells they are using. Whats more is that unlike Spellvamp which is a stat, the passive of DDance is a static amount that isn't accumulated. These champions also give up

Physical single-target skills that don't apply lifesteal are pretty equal:

Those are like almost all on hit spells which dont proc it, or a spell that does relatively low damage by itself. try again.

Also, wtf are Jhin, Noc, Udyr and Riven doing here? Especially Riven, WTF she is completely AOE.

WoTA actually is a passive. But why not remove the vamp stat and leave a decent WoTA with a unique passive, then?

Oh right, i forgot it was changed. Makes the stats existence that much more pointless tho. Wota basically exists for 1 champion. And giving it more widespread use is either toxic to the game or pointless.

False.

Rofl. Not even gonna read the rest of that. You are wrong. AD doesn't scale as hard as AP.
Fact. Moving on.

Right. Because it doesn't heal for much, unlike all the other healing items ADs and hybrids can use regardless of how much healing is in their kit.

And the reason why is because it would be broken.

Imagine Lux healing for the full Heal of Final Spark after hitting 5 people. Seem balanced to you? Hell, just imagine her healing for consistent 3-4 man E's.

Hell, Karthus alone would be stupid.

I already explained in my original post why spellvamp was restricted the way it is. All you are doign is exemplifying my point.

Your entire stance if argument is under this rigid belief that Spellvamp is inherently good for the game even tho it has been explained to why it is problematic and no reason as to why it should stay has been provided on your part.

Your entire argument is basically "well lifesteal exists" even tho they dont operate the same.

Why is wide spread build-able spell based sustain that scales with damage as a stat for mages as a class anything but an issue?

VekknaApr 8, 201610 votes

Mages in general having obscene amounts of sustain is screwed by the consistency of the spells they are using

Graves, Lucian, Corki, Jhin, Riven, Zed, etc. all have the same spell consistency as an AP mage.

Whats more is that unlike Spellvamp which is a stat, the passive of DDance is a static amount that isn't accumulated.

And like I already said, WoTA is a unique passive not the vamp stat. So why are they throwing an item that doesn't even have the stat that's allegedly problematic? WoTA has a static amount that wasn't accumulated, so why are you ignoring that?

Mages have no hp sustain. It was already something I hoped they would fix, but they're doubling down on making healing exclusive to ADs. I think that's fundamentally unfair.

Those are like almost all on hit spells which dont proc it, or a spell that does relatively low damage by itself.

On-hit spells do proc Death's Dance and Gunblade.

wtf are Jhin, Noc, Udyr and Riven doing here? Especially Riven, WTF she is completely AOE.

Jhin's W and R are single-target physical spells. Noc's Q and R are single-target physical. Udyr's Tiger Stance is a single-target physical dot that applies full DD vamp. I clicked Riven by accident; I meant to click Rengar for his single-target E.

Rofl. Not even gonna read the rest of that. You are wrong. AD doesn't scale as hard as AP. Fact.

I used math, you used words. Lee Sin's ult with its 2.0 ratio and 500 base damage is healing for more and scaling better than Zyra's .7 ratio and 350 base damage. Because fucking math. Nevermind the fact that ADC hypercarries are the highest scaling dps in the game, and they didn't get there by being AP.

Why is wide spread build-able spell based sustain that scales with damage as a stat for mages as a class anything but an issue?

Apparently it's only an issue if you don't scale off of AD. There's an item for you so long as you scale off AD. No other factors apply. It doesn't matter if you're ranged or melee Lucian Jax , what damage type you do Evelynn Corki , whether you use abilities or AAs or both Graves Jhin , whether you have resource or no resource Riven Yasuo , whether you're a hyperscaling carry KogMaw , whether you're aoe or single-target Jinx MissFortune , or whether you have tons of innate kit healing XinZhao .

The only restriction is "can I use AD at all." If the answer is yes, then you can build healing items. The only subclass in the game that's not allowed to have a healing item are ability-only, AP-only champs. That makes no fucking sense.

Curling VeigarApr 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Single target magic spells are also pretty rare

You forgot Veigar lol, but you'd literally NEVER build spellvamp on him anyways.

Spizzle9000Apr 10, 20162 votes

Vladimir lives matter.

ProfDrDeathApr 8, 20162 votes

Same applies to DoT damage, because then you are healing off of not doing anything and on a refreshed consistency and potentially from a huge amount of champions similar to AoE, so DoT's got a cap on it also basically making ti useless on them.

Do you mean that Spellvamp is reduced in effectiveness on DoTs? Because that is not true - single-target DoTs apply full spellvamp.

Great post, otherwise.

To add to it:

It basically boils down to a few core aspects that make spellvamp on its own hard to balance:

On mana-users, it is restrictive because it essentially is a complicated tool to turn mana in health. Guess what the new Catalyst does, but in a simpler way...And usually, mana is more restrictive in the phase where sustain really matters for common mages (laning phase).
Long-ranged mages don't need it, because they have essentially two states in a fight - far enough away for their health level to not matter, and dead.
The main users would be sustained damage close-range fighters. But, guess what - these champions usually have kit-intrinsic health sustain (Vlad's Q, Swain's R (I shudder to think of him with the new catalyst), Zac's passive, Rumble's W, Maokai's passive, Ryze's passive and R) and mostly AoE abilities. Giving them access to Spellvamp is either superfluous or results in their kit-intrinsic sustain to be nerfed so that they cannot work without the spellvamp item.

The difference to the Omnivamp items (Hextech Gunblade and Death's Dance) is that these items work on all damage dealt, not just damage dealt with abilities (and not even all abilities at that).

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20161 votes

Do you mean that Spellvamp is reduced in effectiveness on DoTs? Because that is not true - single-target DoTs apply full spellvamp.

Really now? This is news to me. Are you sure? I could swear it has a restriction to DoTs in general on top of the AoE restriction, unless it was removed. and i didn't notice.

I also forgot to mention how it applies to Active's as well.

ProfDrDeathApr 8, 20163 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_vamp#Notes

I am trying it with Fiddle in a game right now and will report back after :)

EDIT: On Fiddle's Drain, Spellvamp gets applied in full.