Just for the people who might have missed it; Malzahar is basically being reverted

Malicious Metal·May 19, 2017·91 votes·6,161 views

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h63TCSqCnPw/WR6UEVFZ5bI/AAAAAAABDj8/5di5NRkpm8gFAIkCCTjtnhHlpzdw_k-UACLcB/s1600/DAKuz0GVYAAnADG.jpg

That's the closest to a revert we'll ever get. Same with Mordekaiser, he got most of his functionality in Solo lanes back.

174 Comments

deadlychuckMay 19, 201731 votes

Except they said, "fuck AD malzahar" it seems.

Really at this point, all the rework has accomplished was providing easier to execute versions of the same exact capabilities that he had, except disconnecting them from the malzahar player, so that they become extremely inconsistent.

Voidlings were basically changed so that you don't have to manage them, and his ability to block spells was changed to an automated spell shield instead of having to aim spawn voidlings to block spells.

There is no way this rework has done anything to actually improve the champion, that couldn't have been done without completely defacing the champion.

Malicious MetalMay 19, 201748 votes

To be fair, Riot trying to make AD Malz an actual thing is what gave us the gimpy mess that was Minionmancer Malzahar.

deadlychuckMay 19, 201742 votes

Except that the old design was a surprisingly well designed minionmancer.

The true irony is that AD and AP malzahar are identical after the update, and the reworked malzahar is a worse designed minionmancer than the pre-rework AD malzahar. So idk how they did it, but somehow they managed to change a champion with two valid play styles into a single play style that was more poorly designed than half of the old design.

ElikainMay 19, 20174 votes

Malzahar is a mage. Not an AD amalgamation of an "edgy" playstyle. If you want a normal Malzahar, you can't have both being viable at the same time.

deadlychuckMay 19, 20175 votes

What are you talking about?

How as the pre-rework malzahar not "normal"? He wasn't OP as a mage, and he managed to preform both the AD play style and AP style distinctly and effectively.

In fact, the only reason he's an amalgamation, is as a result of riot forcing change onto a champion, but tried to retain the identity. The change wasn't necessary, they were trying to fix what wasn't broken, and they got cut as a result.

ElikainMay 19, 20171 votes

I am talking about AD Malzahar, as i've stated in the first comment.

deadlychuckMay 19, 20177 votes

Clearly not what that question was referring too.

Champions can have multiple builds and both be viable. There is nothing which prevents this. AD and AP varus are both very viable, even when he's not insanely busted in the meta.

The only thing preventing champions from having both viable AD and AP build is riot. They are removing these alternative or unique scaling from champions. Despite often champions which incorporate both have distinct play styles for each. They'd rather have a roster of 150 champions with one play style, instead of a roster of 100 champions, 50 of which unique AD and AP play styles. Then god forbid that they have a roster of 150 champions, 75 of which have alternative play styles. That'd just be too much verity in their game, and they can't have that.

Honestly, there are probably fewer viable ways to play the game now, than there were 4 years ago, on the bases that so many champions have been reworked or had scaling removed which forces them into a single play style for their kit. Rather than having multiple play styles for many of their kits.

Krys StarMay 19, 20177 votes

Honestly, and no offense, get the hell over it. Be thankful they're not getting rid of AD Malzahar in general. Malzahar was made with the primary focus that he's a mage. Him being built AD isn't mean to be serious, but at least Riot is okay with it staying.

Riot's focus in his changes will always be aimed at what he was meant for: mage. He was never meant to be an AD champion, and Riot's not going to cater to his AD build for that primary reason.

chipndip1May 19, 20173 votes

We got INTO THIS MESS because people were bitching about stupid shit like AD variants of an ap champ. It's an unnecessary concern.

deadlychuckMay 19, 201711 votes

What are you talking about?

I mean, of all the AD variants of AP champions, at least malzahar's was unique. Other champions like fizz, diana, soraka, all just abused the natural AD scaling that auto attacks have. Where as malzahar was at least integrating it into a completely new play style around managing and controlling voidlings.

chipndip1May 19, 201711 votes

But it's unneeded. We're in this mess now because people started piping up about AD Malz and his voidlings. Riot's getting us out of it, and once again people are going "But AD Ma-"

No. Just sit down and lets fix the problem of Malz being a glorified support. If AD Malz makes it through, fine. If not, nobody cares.

deadlychuckMay 19, 20176 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Man, can we not get this fucking story straight? No where did riot claim that the reason for changing malzahar was his AD build. It wasn't powerful, it wasn't competitive, it was simply viable to the layman. Riot wanted to change malzahar BECAUSE of the AP variation of the champion and tried to keep AD malzahar around, because they recognized that if they outright removed it, then people would notice that they were actually intending to remove a champion, that no one was demanding be removed (ironic considering how people will actually demand champions be removed), from the game, because they felt that the champion was too effective against the designs which they have bias towards.

What did they get? A half-assed rework that was poorly thought out, poorly designed, and is now getting a half revert, because it turns out that a well designed champion which does well against your biases, is healthier for the game, than a shitty rework with problems of greater depth and breadth. This rework was completely unnecessary and these changes which they've now made to the PBE, could've been accomplished by just adjusting his #s to begin with, instead of defacing the champion.

Serika ZeroMay 19, 20176 votes

His E needs to be able to solo kill a caster minion from 100 to 0 at lv3. I don't see that happening with a just +10%AP buff (that's like 1-2 extra damage on the spell when you are lv5-6-7 and didn't buy stuff yet), meaning, one of the key aspects of Malzahar (E farming) is not coming back. Meaning, he is not reverted, just gets some shitty extra damage on his skills.

LauchmelderMay 19, 20173 votes

Entitled much?

Be happy he gets changed at all.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 19, 20175 votes

Now watch Azir get reverted to release strength. :^) If only right?

Serika ZeroMay 19, 20174 votes

if Malzahar, which was played by only a handful of people (around 3%) was as much of a problem as Azir which was in almost every competitive game and high elo as a must pick. Yes, I have brain damage and should kill myself.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 19, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=skQT8dwa,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-19T13:24:18.180+0000)

if Malzahar, which was played by only a handful of people (around 3%) was as much of a problem as Azir which was in almost every competitive game and high elo as a must pick. Yes, I have brain damage and should kill myself.

You said it, not me. But pls don't. You have so much to live for man.

Serika ZeroMay 19, 20171 votes

i guess sarcasm doesn't exist for you i also guess water is dry, the light is black and dead pixels are white

TyrekGoldenspearMay 19, 20172 votes

Apparently you can't tell either, as you should have told that I was playing along.

Either way your efforts at sarcasm are inexperiencined at best, and juvenile at worst.

Serika ZeroMay 19, 20171 votes

i'm pissed first one there's a moron that wants diana reworked and everyone that plays her to suffer because apparently he can't do that

and now there's people thinking this change "reverts" malzahar. No, it doesn't >.> he will still be around 30% weaker than pre rework. Fuck that bullshit passive that eats all the power budget WHICH RITO STILL KEEPS

RalanrMay 19, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=skQT8dwa,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-19T13:54:10.406+0000)

i'm pissed first one there's a moron that wants diana reworked and everyone that plays her to suffer because apparently he can't do that

What we like isn't always best for the character.

Honestly Diana does have problems that make her too feast or famine.

and now there's people thinking this change "reverts" malzahar. No, it doesn't >.> he will still be around 30% weaker than pre rework. Fuck that bullshit passive that eats all the power budget WHICH RITO STILL KEEPS

Yeah, still not sure why it does damage reduction. The spell shield alone is powerful enough.

Serika ZeroMay 19, 20173 votes

no, Diana is not "feast of famine". How many Diana qq threads have you seen? HOW MANY? How many calling Diana broken? How many calling Diana over powered? HOW MANY CALLING HER FEAST OF FAMINE? HOW MANY CALLING HER WEAK? none, because that's all just a pile of bullshit. She's more fucking balanced than Yasuo, Rengar, Zed, Kha and Talon combined at their weakest form.

As for why does the Malza spellshied reduces damage???? because rito's balance team is sometimes composed of FUCKING MORONS just like the guy that wants diana rework. "blablabla oppressive, blablabla uninteractive" LETS GIVE HIM A PASSIVE THAT MAKES HIM IGNORE DAMAGE AND SPELLS :D geniuses >.>

Yay for 1 more faliure if rito pays any attention to boards. Lets rework another hero that is wanted to be reworked by less people than her play rate >.>

RalanrMay 19, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=skQT8dwa,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-19T15:39:01.740+0000)

no, Diana is not "feast of famine". How many Diana qq threads have you seen? HOW MANY? How many calling Diana broken? How many calling Diana over powered? HOW MANY CALLING HER FEAST OF FAMINE? HOW MANY CALLING HER WEAK?

Several on the weak part since her winrate is low.

And considering how much Diana is reliant on snowballing, yeah she seems pretty feast or famine. She doesn't really provide much without her items.

none, because that's all just a pile of bullshit. She's more fucking balanced than Yasuo, Rengar, Zed, Kha and Talon combined at their weakest form.

Ok. Right here? This is showing bias.

Don't try to gain sympathy for your argument by comparing commonly hated champions.

As for why does the Malza spellshied reduces damage???? because rito's balance team is sometimes composed of FUCKING MORONS just like the guy that wants diana rework.

Yay for 1 more faliure if rito pays any attention to boards. Lets rework another hero that is wanted to be reworked by less people than her play rate >.>

It's not always about you. The overall state of the game and champions is important.

HaIlMonitorMay 19, 20171 votes

I played her yesterday and people said she isnt fair. Her problem is her kit is weaker then Ekko's but is super similar. I always make the joke to my friends they should delete her and make her skin for Ekko.

RalanrMay 19, 20172 votes

Imo they should swap her ult and E, but then she'd have an ori ult.

HalcyonDwellerMay 19, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=skQT8dwa,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-19T15:39:01.740+0000)

no, Diana is not "feast of famine". How many Diana qq threads have you seen? HOW MANY? How many calling Diana broken? How many calling Diana over powered? HOW MANY CALLING HER FEAST OF FAMINE? HOW MANY CALLING HER WEAK?

You are claiming lack of opposition as evidence that she is fine? That's a logical fallacy my friend. All of Western Civilization used to agree that the earth was flat. That didn't make it true :P

because rito's balance team is sometimes composed of FUCKING MORONS just like the guy that wants diana rework.

This is your opinion, not a fact. Did you mean to come off sounding so arrogant?

This is also another fallacy (begging the question), you use one unsupported claim as a means to support another unsupported claim. And then you tie it together to insult multiple groups of people at once with no real value added to the discussion.

LauchmelderMay 19, 20171 votes

Yo Tyrek, what's wrong? You seem aggravated today.

Regarding Azir: Please no. Even as someone who loves Azir I can agree on the fact that he was way too strong on release.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 19, 20171 votes

Yeah, my bad. I just have very little patience right now. >_>

I feel like I'm slipping with Azir, you know? I fed like a bloody amateur. Against a Karthus.

Not to mention I laned against a showboating Yasuo, showed him a thing or two, pulled off wicked shuffles, and still lost becuase nobody noticed him splitpushing and I couldn't fight him myself.

Not to mention I started making stupid mistakes and facepalmed myself hard enough to get a bruise.

I feel like I'll never get Mastery 7 at this rate. I feel like I'm playing League hard mode for no payoff besides making myself look like an idiot.

RalanrMay 19, 20171 votes

You played pretty well when I was feeding Morgana.

Sorry about forgetting to buy my support item at spawn that game. I honestly don't know how I messed that up.

137434May 19, 201725 votes

Constant non-interactive E farming/pushing was one of old Malz's biggest issues. Riot just screwed up the rest of his kit when trying to eliminate that problem.

Serika ZeroMay 19, 201735 votes

for FUCKS SAKE, that's what mages do on mid lane Ahri Q spam for wave push and clear Anivia get lv 6, no more issues Azir soldiers easy clean up Diana Q spam for wave push and clear Ekko Q spam for wave push and clear Karthus Q spam for wave push and clear Leblanc WQ hard push Orianna QW spam for wave push and clear Syndra 3 Qs for wave clear Veigar Q for wave clear Velkoz W for wave clear Xerath Q for wave clear and poke at the same time Ziggs Q for wave clear Viktor Q for wave clear

THAT'S THE FUCKING JOB OF THE MID LANER, TO HAVE WAVE CLEAR. THAT'S WHAT THE ROLE IMPLIES Wave clear gives you lane priority which allows you to roam if needed and helping your jugnler.

What's next? Nerfing junglers because they can kill camps or gank? Nerfing adcs because they can damage turrets? Nerfing supports because they can fucking ward and help their team?

NiteliteMay 19, 201714 votes

As a Viktor player, i am extremely triggered by the " Viktor Q for wave clear". His e is his wave clear bro.

CudyDarkyzMay 19, 20174 votes

You telling me you don't q each minion 5 times with his q

Arsenic SulfurMay 19, 201724 votes

Malzahar's problem was that he was so uninteractive and inherently defensive after first back that you couldn't be aggressive towards him in anyway because it wouldn't work period. If you got in range with the intent to interact WER you're dead get outplayed. Unless you got QSS and suddenly he's only a waveclear bot which is incredibly binary.

Defensive champions do need to exist but never in the way Malzahar did it. Via near-instant self-sustaining waveclear, range to do it safely, and other tools to punish simply getting in range.

The rework failed because it didn't solve these problems but the fact that they existed in the first place means Riot wouldn't do a full on revert, only a semi-revert. Reverting won't make him suddenly pop out of bot lane either as forcing an ADC to go off track in their build in order to simply survive is incredibly strong.

Serika ZeroMay 19, 20175 votes

unless you got QSS, unless you played GP, unless you PLAYED AS A TEAM IN A TEAM BASED GAME THERE'S COUNTERPLAY THERE, IN FUCKING CAP LOCKS FOR YOU TO SEE.

His wave clear was no self-sustaining. Its doran shield that sustains it, AND ALL MAGES THAT ARE FUCKING PLAY MID HAVE GOOD WAVE CLEAR, MALZAHAR'S RIGHT NOW SUCKS AND WILL SUCK AFTER BUFF

NineTailedMysticMay 19, 20171 votes

Killing minions with E gave/gives a mana restore + D-Ring sustain. The laner had to take the E damage to prevent infinite waveclear.

Voluug13May 19, 20172 votes

Untrue, since the E either died off without killing anything, or the wave died before the the next wave arrived, and the E with it. His E didnt instakill minions nor it lasted long. Siege minions were the death of E jumps.

Wanted to punish a Malz? Harass him while he is micromanaging E jumps via AA. Bam, he missed AAing the minion to make the E jump, because numberically Malz's E was unable to solo a minion until 150+ AP and rank 4.

deadlychuckMay 19, 201715 votes

I've really got to question what alternative defensive designs even exist? Obviously you have tanks, but outside of that it would imply that defensive champions are impossible to create. Malzahar was pretty easily punishable by champions which would otherwise normally play defensive against assassins. Longer range artillery mages. Like lux, ziggs, xerath, exc.

It's pretty obvious why this would be the case.

Really, the reason the rework failed, was because they tried to solve a problem which only existed because they said it existed. Which lead to other problems actually existing. The only "problem" that malzahar caused was that melee assassins risked getting hard countered by him. Which isn't really a problem, because he risked getting hard countered by artillery champions.

Yeah, it was a pain to go against malzahar if you were playing yasuo, zed, talon, exc. Do you think this isn't how people who play ziggs, lux, xerath, vel koz, tf, exc. feel to go against those champions? It's just bias towards which champions' struggles are of concern.

Voluug13May 19, 20173 votes

It makes my blood boil when people dont know what they are talking about because malz had to micromanage E jumps at his shitty AA range because E damage sucked earlygame.

Meanwhile, this bitch Ahri literally has a sustain passive and a Q that takes away 50%+ hp from the minion wave and gives her an speed boost.

Like, literally what are they talking about here. How is having to Malz's E micromanaging early-midgame '''''uninteractive''''' when other champions actually clear faster with AoE spells from actual safety?

Oh yeah, because of this

Really, the reason the rework failed, was because they tried to solve a problem which only existed because they said it existed. Which lead to other problems actually existing. **The only "problem" that malzahar caused was that melee assassins risked getting hard countered by him. **Which isn't really a problem, because he risked getting hard countered by artillery champions.

Yeah, it was a pain to go against malzahar if you were playing yasuo, zed, talon, exc. Do you think this isn't how people who play ziggs, lux, xerath, vel koz, tf, exc. feel to go against those champions? It's just bias towards which champions' struggles are of concern.

Arsenic SulfurMay 20, 20172 votes

If your range was lower than an ADC's range your ass was getting insta-gibbed period. Assassin, Juggernaut, Tank, ADC, Battle Mage TL;DR everyone except artillery mages.

Voluug13May 20, 20174 votes

Its almost as if Malz pre-rework was practically a battlemage and built like one but obviously my 4 years maining pre-rework Malz are completly wrong am I right.

Most if not all mages have a low AA range. Plus this was in lane, were there wasnt a 5 man team to punish you for low AA range. So what is your point?

Arsenic SulfurMay 20, 20172 votes

Mid-lane melees weren't the only ones suffering. Anyone within his R range (which is about around the range of an ADC) was at severe risk of getting skillfully outplayed by his point-n-click combo.

His uninteractivity was a very real thing. You had until first back to play against him before he came back with double Dorans and a leveled-up E. Then he'd push endlessly while sitting under tower, running out of mana at the rate of a Nasus not using E or W. Unlike every other mage Malzahar had no incentive to actually get close. Even Xerath, artillery mage to end all artillery mages, has a passive that needs to get him to get close for maximum effect. This means he could comfortably sit near tower while the minion wave was closer to the enemies.

You can make a defensive champion without having them be a tank or totally uninteractive. With the recent changes Heimerdinger is able to punish blindly running in and hyper aggressiveness but not like Malzahar who insta-gibbed EVERYONE(Not just assassins) that got in range. However he still needs to interact by hitting his opponents with not-Q spells and stick near his little base, not tower, or else he'd be gimping himself. Even then you can still kill him under his turrets.

Voluug13May 20, 20174 votes

Mid-lane melees weren't the only ones suffering. Anyone within his R range (which is about around the range of an ADC) was at severe risk of getting skillfully outplayed by his point-n-click combo.

Tell me one (1) lane where Malz and this adc are always at the same distance and not have an actual minion wave between them.

His uninteractivity was a very real thing.

It wasnt, unless you were a melee assassin.

You had until first back to play against him before he came back with double Dorans and a leveled-up E. Then he'd push endlessly while sitting under tower, running out of mana at the rate of a Nasus not using E or W. Unlike every other mage Malzahar had no incentive to actually get close.

You literally never played Malz it seems, because Malz needed to micromanage his E into jumping because even pre-rework it didnt have the damage to solo kill a minion, much less last hit it. He needed to be there constantly AA'ing the minion to kill it before 4 seconds of meh damage passed.

You can literally push waves better and with less effort with an Ahri Q or a Lux E+passive proccs.

This means he could comfortably sit near tower while the minion wave was closer to the enemies.

False, unless you wasted all your mana on QW to make E jump. This is what rework Malz does, with his no mana cost on-demand minion wave.

Stop pretending Malz's E instakilled minions please.

You can make a defensive champion without having them be a tank or totally uninteractive. With the recent changes Heimerdinger is able to punish blindly running in and hyper aggressiveness but not like Malzahar who insta-gibbed EVERYONE(Not just assassins) that got in range.

Except Malz has low range and no mobility, and without the lolwhatspositionement passive, he needed to build battlemage, which meant he couldnt build the damage for destroying tanks. That leaves... melee assassins that need to dive him to kill him.

And no, his combo wasnt capable of pulling a flash-CC combo because he cant start with ult, his ult is the last spell he should use on his combo.

Voluug13May 19, 20178 votes

First, defensive champions in midlane are only biased against melee assassins. Literally no one cares about Malz when playing a ranged mage.

Second, no, the fact Malz didnt have a free on-demand voidlings to make E always jump for him, instead of having to stand there AA'ing the minion pre-rework because otherwise the E didnt jump and his other spells had too much of mana cost earlygame to help push.

Via near-instant self-sustaining waveclear, range to do it safely, and other tools to punish simply getting in range.

You never played Malz pre-rework, because this is what Rework Malz could do, not Old Malz. Or at least not until midgame with a completed RoA/Rylai's. This entire line is a complete lie, because Malz, much less with E alone, was never capable of a ''near-instant self-sustaining waveclear'' without micromanaging E jumps via AA.

Third, current Ahri has way more of an uninteractive lane that Old Malz ever had because lul Q + sustain passive. You dont see Riot nerfworking her.

cocacolalipsMay 19, 20171 votes

lol no, when I play a marksman I care about not getting insta gibbed by a point and click cc skill too wth?, so do I when I play a support, or a mage, or a tank or a bruiser or whatever.

it doesn't matter who you played, malzahar was cancer.

Voluug13May 20, 20173 votes

If you played a marksman and got in range of Malz's 600 range R, you deserve to die. Literally all adcs except Vayne and Sivir outrange that, and on top of that item 3139 is tailored for marksmen.

A mage outranges Malz, while Malz has no way to initiate.

A support is a low priority target for Malz.

A tank flat out doesnt die with an MR item, nor does a bruiser.

That leaves melee assassins... which Malz is supposed to counter as hard as they counter artillery mages.

cocacolalipsMay 20, 20171 votes

old malzahar W did max health damage, he insta gibbed every single champion in the game with a full combo including tanks, and bruisers.

you could flash and instagib anyone within 1000 range which is higher than every other champion in the game

braindead and no counterplay = unhealthy and poor design = good riddance.

range of Malz's 600 range R, you deserve to die. Literally all adcs except Vayne and Sivir outrange that,

how bronze can you be? all marksmen but caitlyn and ashe have around 550 aa range, all melee champions have around 125 aa range, all mages have around 550 AA range

Voluug13May 20, 20174 votes

% damages are inherently more reduced by MR that flat damage.

I know this from experience, a non-ult renekton with 1 MR item could survive Malz's entire burst until I sld boots and bought DFG. Imagine that with the lower AP totals of today.

you could flash and instagib anyone within 1000 range which is higher than every other champion in the game

Malz cant do a Tibber flash because his entire combo needs to be set up BEFORE using his R, unlike Annie that she can start with an AoE stun. His R alone never was capable of killing anything, and his only way to try to engage was his Q, which was maxed second (so short silence) and was massively delayed to the point that one of the problems of the rework was that it was made too easy to land.

His QWE cast times and delays also meant that anyone could run/flash/dash away from him.

braindead and no counterplay = unhealthy and poor design = good riddance.

Sure sugarlips, if parroting Riot meaningless buzzwords makes you sleep better at night.

ModAcademy KaynMay 19, 20171 votes

I'm just saying, save for Xerath in a way, but none of those who could it while constantly resupplying their mana. Now, that's less an issue after a back for a mana item, but before that point, you'd be very hard pressed up against Turret if you weren't constantly using abilities to keep the wave pushed.

Voluug13May 19, 20172 votes

Buying item 3802 atm for most of those mages completly removes mana management.

Also, Malz's mana returns on E had to be micromanaged at AA range (his shitty 600) to make those E actually jump, because unlike bandwagoners like to pretend, E was single target and didnt instakill. His other spells took away 25%+ of his mana pool earlygame which was to gate his voidling passive (and that is why the rework failed, because on demand voidlings for 1/10 the mana cost is not something that is supposed to exist).