What is this odd expectation people have about thornmail

Critkeeper·May 17, 2017·22 votes·1,327 views

Like it is "supposed" to be an item you buy and then nobody who relies primarily on auto attacks can fight you anymore.

Thats not something RIOT is going to let any item do you know.

28 Comments

Critmaster GarenMay 18, 20175 votes

the expectation is that its supposed to have a massive effect against ad heavy teamcomps, like item 3153 and item 3036 have a massive effect against tanky opponents and teamcomps.

the expectation is, that auto attack based champions have trouble fighting you when you can affords to stack 300 and more armor, because the enemy team is overspecialized and youre not threatened by magic damage.

Mira Arya EntheMay 18, 20175 votes

You are talking to the boards tank circle jerk my friend. Let me tell you exactly what they expect.

All their items need 600+ HP.

ADCs need to die to them if they AFK with a Thornmail.

Team fights need to last over a minute just ln merit that they never die.

Games need to last 50 minutes but crit itemization shouldn't do damage till 55+ minutes.

All forms of armor pen need to be removed.

AD champions should not be viable.

Lifesteal should be entirely removed.

Any champion more mobile than Darius that isn't a tank should have 0 damage or such high resource costs they cannot use mobility more than once per game.

Their only counters should be a couple Juggernauts.

Towers should do 100,000 true damage to champions. Except tanks they should heal them.

Tanks should be 100% immune to burst damage and 90% immune to dps.

If it can kill them it has toxic gameplay patterns and should be reworked.

They should never have to fall back on peeling for carries they should be able to dive 1v9 and solokill the enemy carries then walk out with 95% HP.

They shouldn't die to being focused in anything less than 30... years.

Champions with easy to use mechanics should get 20x the powerbudget of difficult champions.

Ignore LCS high tier play SoloQ statistics and everything else. All tanks have been unplayable since beta.

So when you ask what the odd expectation is. There you have it.

General Esdeath May 18, 20174 votes

I expect it to actually reflect damage and require more than 5% lifesteal to counter. Riot doesn't seem to have an issue with something requiring you to build specific items (Such as item 3157 vs Zed )

Pater GascoigneMay 18, 20171 votes

This. If the enemy ADC crits you to death with 4 autoattacks and still has near full HP with no lifesteal, then whats the point of Thornmail? Honestly, Randuins does everything better than Thornmail

Variks the LoyalMay 17, 20173 votes

I think the main expectation with Thornmail is that it allows you to fight people who focus on auto attacks and outlast them, killing them before they kill you. No one wants the moments where enemies just AA themselves to death (As funny as that would be), but the item should still serve as a special counter to those sorts of champions.

CritkeeperMay 17, 20179 votes

{quoted}

I think the main expectation with Thornmail is that it allows you to fight people who focus on auto attacks and outlast them, killing them before they kill you. No one wants the moments where enemies just AA themselves to death (As funny as that would be), but the item should still serve as a special counter to those sorts of champions.

(emphasis added)

I don't think we can expect thornmail to be an item that lets you outlast auto attackers either.

we can't expect tanks to be durable enough to withstand the focus fire from abilities on the enemy team so that they can do their job but then at the same time expect them to outlast the only other source of damage (auto attacks)

Variks the LoyalMay 17, 20173 votes

Why can't we? A tank should be able to outlast through everything anyone else can't (Except Juggernauts, who should last as long as tanks but don't bring the utility or engage power).

Tanks should be able to outlast auto-attackers, at least in a 1 on 1 situation. In reality, an ADC often has Supports backing them up, which would tip the tides in the ADC's favor. But if the Tank can't outlast an ADC, what's the point of having a Tank?

CritkeeperMay 17, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Why can't we? A tank should be able to outlast through everything anyone else can't (Except Juggernauts, who should last as long as tanks but don't bring the utility or engage power).

Tanks should be able to outlast auto-attackers, at least in a 1 on 1 situation. In reality, an ADC often has Supports backing them up, which would tip the tides in the ADC's favor. But if the Tank can't outlast an ADC, what's the point of having a Tank?

To block important spells, draw aggro, control the initiation and momentum of the team fight and guide everyone's positioning while the fight occurs.

They need to be durable enough so that simultaneously throwing all the burst you have at them doesn't actually kill them, otherwise the winning strategy is to always make the fight a 4v5 by instagibbing the enemy tank and then rapidly disengaging until you get your cooldowns back up.

But they should die to sustained damage. They definitely shouldn't "outlast" the only thing they have to fear.

Variks the LoyalMay 17, 20175 votes

I agree they die to sustained damage, but that shouldn't mean Tanks automatically lose against ADCs.

One of the reasons Thornmail is a niche item (And has always been a niche item) is it's oversimplification. Even in a world where Thornmail afflicted Grievous Wounds and reflected 30% of damage taken back at the attacker (As it was before it was nerfed), Thornmail wouldn't be built in a majority of games. Instead, it gives them a tool should they be facing either an overfed ADC, or a team comprised of more than one.

If the Tank's enemy team has two ADCs, for example, they should have an option so they don't just buckle under the weight of them. That's what Thornmail is for, and it's why it doesn't offer any other supplementary stats like Health, MR, or cooldown reduction. Against a balanced team, with one ADC, an AD Casting Fighter, and an AP Mage, the Tank doesn't have room to build a Thornmail.

CritkeeperMay 17, 20176 votes

{quoted}

I agree they die to sustained damage, but that shouldn't mean Tanks automatically lose against ADCs.

One of the reasons Thornmail is a niche item (And has always been a niche item) is it's oversimplification. Even in a world where Thornmail afflicted Grievous Wounds and reflected 30% of damage taken back at the attacker (As it was before it was nerfed), Thornmail wouldn't be built in a majority of games. Instead, it gives them a tool should they be facing either an overfed ADC, or a team comprised of more than one.

If the Tank's enemy team has two ADCs, for example, they should have an option so they don't just buckle under the weight of them. That's what Thornmail is for, and it's why it doesn't offer any other supplementary stats like Health, MR, or cooldown reduction. Against a balanced team, with one ADC, an AD Casting Fighter, and an AP Mage, the Tank doesn't have room to build a Thornmail.

I don't think a tank should necessarily lose to a marksman 1v1 because marksman make tradeoffs in order to have range.

However, I do think that tanks should lose to auto attack based melee fighters 1v1, and it shouldn't be close. Thornmail makes those fights a lot closer than they ought to be.

If multiple sources of sustained physical damage through auto attacks is too much for the tank to bear, thornmail isn't the best way to solve that problem from a design point of view. An item that gives you stacking damage reduction vs auto attacks based on the number of unique champions that have auto attacked you in the last few seconds would make much more sense.

Variks the LoyalMay 18, 20172 votes

That sounds like a really unnecessarily complex item.

Besides, auto-attack based Fighters and Skirmishers all seem like they have ways to get around a Tank's defenses. Irelia, Camille, and Fiora have True Damage, Tryndamere can heal, Jax's damage is mixed, etc. Even when Thornmail was decent it wasn't ever considered a counter to AA-based Skirmishers and Divers.

kasfasMay 18, 20171 votes

Most melter fighters have some sort of built in sustain/armourshred/defensive steroid that should overcome the damage thornmail does, ADC's do not have those three bags built in and this need to itemize for it.

Therefore melee champions will likely still beat anyone with Thornmail the same way they beat someone with frozen heart, but adc's take a hit because they now need to itemize against the item.

RalanrMay 18, 20171 votes

The thing is, sustained damage is the killer of tanks.

It's why I don't like Thornmail as a concept.

Dryad SorakaMay 18, 20173 votes

It definitely needs to have the grievous wounds effect back on it, lifesteal is way too strong and has been for years now.

ProfDrDeathMay 18, 20173 votes

The purpose of Thornmail is to protect its user from being a Lifesteal Battery, plain and simple.

Assuming its damage return works on pre-mitigation damage, to outheal merely the %-based damage return part, an ADC would need:

Lifesteal = Percentage of damage x ratio of (Thorn user's Armor + 100) to (Thorn attacker's MR + 100)

With current Thornmail in the above formula, a tank with 90 base Armor would need, against an AD with a balanced build (flat MR runes, IE/ZI/BG/LDR/BT/Mercurial - 30% Lifesteal and 87 MR), 183 additional bonus Armor on top of Thornmail - but merely for the scaling damage part of Thornmail to deny the entirety of the Lifesteal. This calculation does not account for the flat damage.

However, the auto-attacker needs all three last items to require the tank to have even that much Armor. Without Lord Dominics, the tank would only need 83 Armor on top of Thornmail. Without Mercurial, he only needs 12.7 of Thorn's 100 Armor. And without Bloodthirster, the tank doesn't even need Thorn's own Armor!

The big issue with Thornmail is that it is not necessarily its strength, but the fact that it is not worth the item slot, as it is only a 2200 gold item. And tanks are already on the low side as far as final item cost per item slot is concerned.

Troll for TrumpMay 17, 20172 votes

It is. It's supposed to be a niche item.

item 3194 makes Teemo Cassiopeia near useless

item 3075 should do the same on things like KogMaw

However, to counterbalance this effectiveness, they need to make the item really bad outside of its niche.

If the item ever becomes a general buy, it's a problem.

The issue with thornmails is that it's niche isn't focused enough. Virtually all ADCs are aa reliant, and, since there's an adc every game, it makes thornmail more general than other niche items.

FaustavianMay 18, 20173 votes

item 3075 pretty much did on koggles until they reverted the 5.0 attack speed.

notice me Sin piMay 18, 20172 votes

item 3075 's passive activation condition should be like item 3102 instead of permanent passive, or it's going to be have to be always kept weak and be useless

PennsMay 17, 20171 votes

item 3156

The Bardic GayMay 18, 20171 votes

Perhaps they should take a page from Dota's book of tricks and nerf the passive, but give it an active that emphasizes the "attack me at your peril" theme for a few seconds. Not nessisarily blademail, but something of similar effect.

DunkinNoobsMay 18, 20171 votes

That's exactly what is was for several seasons, and people actually thought that was reasonable.

AL000May 18, 20171 votes

It's too early to tell... so wait and see what kind of that thormail will be turning out.

It might be useless item as stoneplate. That's my best bet.

VectrosMay 18, 20171 votes

That's not exactly my expectation unless I'm Rammus or someone similar.

What I DO expect is it hurts them enough to be noticeable. If an ADC goes 1 on 1 after I'm built properly and have thornmail, I don't necessarily think I'll win the fight-but when I do drop, the thornmail should have put a serious dent in his health-even with lifesteal.

The fact is, with just one lifesteal item they completely negate it. It's so weak right now I find it 100% pointless to buy, ever, even if they had 5 ADC's I'm not sure I'd buy it-frozen heart/randuins/etc would be my go to items. If you can literally cancel out the one special thing of this item with one item, I'd rather get something else which will have a noticeable effect.

The only champion I ever get it on is Rammus, because his W combined with it IS enough to hurt them with a standard build.

It Hertz When IPMay 18, 20171 votes

My expectation when buying it is that an enemy ADC should see that I have it and have to stop and seriously think before just blithely attacking. I still expect I'll die, but killing me now costs him/her enough that he/she will have to stop and wonder, "is it worth it?"

PePsiLemoNNMay 18, 20171 votes

You mean i don't get to go tank and if someone DARES to basic attack me he gets killed instantly?

Pacattack25May 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

(emphasis added)

I don't think we can expect thornmail to be an item that lets you outlast auto attackers either.

we can't expect tanks to be durable enough to withstand the focus fire from abilities on the enemy team so that they can do their job but then at the same time expect them to outlast the only other source of damage (auto attacks)

Question: What does thornmale do on abilities? Not a thing right? It's passive works SOLELY on auto attacks right? Therefor you only really want to build it on against an auto attack comp - or in extreme cases all ad comp. In either case - why shouldn't we be expecting the item to do the one thing it has on it's passive namely make autoattackers hurt when they attack you...

{quoted}

To block important spells, draw aggro, control the initiation and momentum of the team fight and guide everyone's positioning while the fight occurs.

They need to be durable enough so that simultaneously throwing all the burst you have at them doesn't actually kill them, otherwise the winning strategy is to always make the fight a 4v5 by instagibbing the enemy tank and then rapidly disengaging until you get your cooldowns back up.

But they should die to sustained damage. They definitely shouldn't "outlast" the only thing they have to fear.

Lets take this piece by piece shall we: Block important spells: Such as roots stuns other various CC things that will likely end up with other teamates dead right? things that thornmail has 0 impact on as I've stated above - but allows the enemies to curbstomp you with AA's as your now rooted/stunned/whathaveyou because let's face it - if it doesn't have a pull/root/stun attached it's not an important spell in this meta ... this being said it would sure be nice to punish the enemy team for you doing your job (by your own words) of blocking one such spell by making the time you are stunned/rooted/pulled more of a liability than a kill the tank

I love how you then say that tanks need to survive burst ... but don't consider the fact that if they get stunned/rooted/whathave you for taking a stun for the team and end up in a five man AA fest - that essentially IS burst at that point...

"Sustained damage" sure those four AA's from a Jhin/Jinx/varus "sustained"... while yes I agree that sustained damage should be their Achilles heal - truth of the matter is that at this point of damage creep and tanks very rarely getting compensated for it it usually doesn't take much to take out a tank... unless the tank is built - or you as a marksman fed hard - it might as well be point and click to delete at the time being - a buff to something to make them think twice about it would be nice...

{quoted}

I don't think a tank should necessarily lose to a marksman 1v1 because marksman make tradeoffs in order to have range.

However, I do think that tanks should lose to auto attack based melee fighters 1v1, and it shouldn't be close. Thornmail makes those fights a lot closer than they ought to be.

If multiple sources of sustained physical damage through auto attacks is too much for the tank to bear, thornmail isn't the best way to solve that problem from a design point of view. An item that gives you stacking damage reduction vs auto attacks based on the number of unique champions that have auto attacked you in the last few seconds would make much more sense.

rant/ "Marksman make tradeoffs in order to have range" ... Like what? Let's go through the updates shall we? there was the item 3071 update where marksmen used B.C. and item 3053 in ways they were never meant to do so... causing both to be nerfed into oblivion for a time causing them to both get specific updates during the tank update, the item 3139 update which took the mages out of mid lane and for the most part made them supports, the item 3814 & item 3147 update which was built on every champion who built AD - usually assassins and marksmen... And let's not forget the item 3026 update which caused most of the tanks to be unplayable... The reason why so many items end up receiving nerfs is because of Marksmen abusing the hell out of them because the simple fact marksmen have range to begin with has such a huge sway it destroys items with it... Yes range has to exist - but it's plainly obvious that the 'tradeoffs' they make isn't enough or they wouldn't be able to abuse the heck out of any new item that happens to have AD on it... /rant

You think that tanks should lose to auto attack based fighters... So... in other words tanks have 0 place being played top lane where they are typically most seen... Mind telling me where you DO want tanks to be played? It's been long known that they are mostly useless in the jungle - so where do you put the tank? Support is often good for a off-tank but as only tank?

And finally: Again - why are you against thornmail doing it's one job - and we all know that building resistances is (still) somewhat laughable at the time... yes it's more effective than building health - but the amount of armor that can still be shredding through item 3071 , item 3035 and oh look at that - the passive on thornmail gets reduced by 40% on one AA... and one AA is enough for item 3072 to heal up that damage...

Finishing point While you are right on the premise of Thornmail SHOULDN'T be an item that causes any AA based champ to be unable to fight you anymore- it should most DEFINATELY be an item that tips the scale in the favor of the person buying thornmail - and if the whole enemy team is AA based it should make it easier for your team to deal with theirs - the expectation for thornmail is that it should have SOME use - which unless your named Rammus it currently does not

doiminat0r3600May 18, 20171 votes

Thornmail is meant to counter lifesteal against tanks. While not 100% effective (depending on your build), it still is supposed to significantly decrease the amount of healing the enemy ADC does off a tank.

Instead of a tank being a wall of Life Steal a carry can sap off of to get HP back in a teamfight, it's supposed to help form the "Focus me but not too much" ideal for tanks.

Too bad it was a niche item, nobody bought it, then it got nerfed repeatedly because it was too strong for the champs it synergized with.

Just Blame JennyMay 18, 20171 votes

You've all got it backwards.

Lifesteal doesn't counter Thornmail. Thornmail counters lifesteal.

Thornmail significantly reduces the amount of self-healing an opponent receives for hitting you. On top of that, it's a huge boost to your armor, giving you more staying power.

Thornmail isn't going to make you invulnerable to an auto attacker. If you're splitting against MasterYi Tryndamere , however, it is going to give you a significant edge in a duel.