This is officially ridiculous!

Zero Shingetsu·Jul 22, 2019·1 votes·1,525 views

Here's something that actually happened.

https://i.imgur.com/cjIB98B.png

https://i.imgur.com/K21Q5lU.png

https://i.imgur.com/hzHholv.png

https://i.imgur.com/H6vbxy0.png

https://i.imgur.com/FRvdSK0.png

https://i.imgur.com/swvWOXP.png

https://i.imgur.com/VhcSozS.png

https://i.imgur.com/O3WMIWR.png

https://media.giphy.com/media/YpTpGJZAfiEhil5kDy/giphy.gif

https://i.imgur.com/q9NVAKP.png

If you didn't believe the damage and was too high and Yi got busted, perhaps this will help you see it. If it doesn't, I'm afraid I can't help you any further.

Riot, please. We're begging you. Fix. The damage. If that means no updates for three years while you rebuild the game from the ground up, so be it. Just fix. The damage.

(Fix the boards, too. I don't appreciate my images randomly not embedding properly.)

26 Comments

WhyEvenBotherFRJul 22, 20194 votes

We didn't give him an early lead

We only allowed him 4 kills in the first 20 minutes.

So which is it. Giving over 4 kills to him is giving him an early lead. And he probably wasn't afraid to hit because Wit's end protected him from some of the redirect damage from thornmail. Not only that he hasn't been prevented from lifestealing, he has just had it reduced. So he's still lifestealing. Also he gains AS on his ult which he was in and I'm assuming he popped E which meant he also had true damage. All recipes for him to rip through you there.

Closer inspection also shows that he built Death's Dance which turns some of the damage into a 3 second bleed for delayed damage allowing him to live a bit longer if needed. Phantom hit from Rageblade and Botrk....it's not surprising what he did. Especially since you missed your cc as.....were you Ornn in that video? If so you missed Q and follow up knockup that would have been helpful. Course you couldn't knock him up anyways because instead of hanging on to an important cc ability, you used it for what looks to be wave clear possibly not realizing that Ornn's E is not the best waveclear against not only super minions, but also baroned up minions.

What else is confusing you?

Edit: Also your count is way off. You didn't allow 4 kills....you allowed 7 kills in the first 20 minutes with another 4 kills offered within 3 minutes after 20 minutes. He was fed. plain and simple.

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

We didn't give him an early lead

or

We only allowed him 4 kills in the first 20 minutes.

So which is it. Giving over 4 kills to him is giving him an early lead.

I wouldn't call 4 kills and 4 deaths at 20 minutes a "lead". If anything, he broke even; worse than even, because as you can see, very few of his early ganks lead to kills for his team. This isn't LCS where 2 kills in 20 minutes means you're off to a lead. Down here where the real gamers play, an "early lead" looks more like 7/1.

And he probably wasn't afraid to hit because Wit's end protected him from some of the redirect damage from thornmail. Not only that he hasn't been prevented from lifestealing, he has just had it reduced. So he's still lifestealing. Also he gains AS on his ult which he was in and I'm assuming he popped E which meant he also had true damage. All recipes for him to rip through you there.

I know he's still lifestealing. What I'm saying is if you can lifesteal through Exhaust and Grievous Wounds against Ornn, who deals % Health damage, and another Yi? Something is not right about this. And that's just one fight; the record shows he got three or four of us at once in others. He was always the first in and the last out, and he very rarely paid for it.

I'm not saying I don't understand how it happened, I'm saying it shouldn't happen.

Closer inspection also shows that he built Death's Dance which turns some of the damage into a 3 second bleed for delayed damage allowing him to live a bit longer if needed. Phantom hit from Rageblade and Botrk....it's not surprising what he did. Especially since you missed your cc as.....were you Ornn in that video? If so you missed Q and follow up knockup that would have been helpful. Course you couldn't knock him up anyways because instead of hanging on to an important cc ability, you used it for what looks to be wave clear possibly not realizing that Ornn's E is not the best waveclear against not only super minions, but also baroned up minions.

I was Ornn, yes. I had used the E to draw his attention to me, knowing he was about to go in hard (he'd just ulted and turned around on us) and I wasn't in range of the wall. Better me than my Yi, I thought. I was probably right, but it didn't matter in the end. For the record, even when I did land the knockup, it only lead to his death once after 20. Every other time he'd just heal immediately after until Alpha Strike was ready, then destroy us from there.

Had I waited to knock up until he started healing, well, he never would have started. He'd immediately Alpha Strike to our squishies and pick us off one by one. The only chance to stop Yi as Ornn lies in using the E at the start and praying that your team can burst him down before he starts healing.

What else is confusing you?

In general, what's confusing me is how a company with this much single-game experience still allows a champion like Master Yi to exist as he currently does.

WhyEvenBotherFRJul 22, 20191 votes

Because master yi isn't in a strong state. Only strong against lower elos. And I notice you didn't address my last comment. It wasn't 4 kills in 20 minutes. It was 7. And even a kill can net a lead.

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Because master yi isn't in a strong state. Only strong against lower elos. And I notice you didn't address my last comment. It wasn't 4 kills in 20 minutes. It was 7. And even a kill can net a lead.

I play in lower elos. So does over 80% of the player base, if like most you count Gold as a "lower elo". Why would you ignore a gigantic issue for 83% of the players in the game because it doesn't affect the other 17%?

As far as kills, we're both wrong. I recounted at it was 5. But 5 kills to 4 deaths isn't a personal lead for Yi, is what I'm saying. He wasn't particularly any more "fed" than the rest of us. In fact, as a team, we had a solid lead on both kills and objectives at the 20 minute mark. 16 kills to their 6, 4 towers to their none, and two drakes (Infernal among them) to their none.

No matter what happened after Yi got those few kills, I fail to see how the numbers support any form of advantage for him or his team at 20.

WhyEvenBotherFRJul 22, 20191 votes

Again you are wrong. It's 7 kills in the first 20 minutes and 11 total before 23 minutes. I can count just fine thank you. Also most of the lower player base doesn't use their brain in the game as much. The concept of cc aludes them and so does power spikes. Using terrain in fights. All important features with others not listed that helps define Yi as one of the weaker junglers.

What I recommend for you to do is check out videos about countering certain champs if they bother you or ban them outright. You gave him 11 kills before 23 minutes and 7 of those in the first 20. Doesn't matter about the deaths with it so much. Not in the elo I'm assuming you are. He got fed. He got items. He carried the game. With help from your team.

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Again you are wrong. It's 7 kills in the first 20 minutes and 11 total before 23 minutes. I can count just fine thank you. Also most of the lower player base doesn't use their brain in the game as much. The concept of cc aludes them and so does power spikes. Using terrain in fights. All important features with others not listed that helps define Yi as one of the weaker junglers.

The majority of consumers aren't wrong. Period. The vast majority of kendō practitioners weren't skilled enough to avoid being injured by bokutō, so they invented shinai. They didn't simply tell those people to "get good".

What I recommend for you to do is check out videos about countering certain champs if they bother you or ban them outright. You gave him 11 kills before 23 minutes and 7 of those in the first 20. Doesn't matter about the deaths with it so much. Not in the elo I'm assuming you are. He got fed. He got items. He carried the game. With help from your team.

You can't ban in normals, otherwise I absolutely would. What I'm trying to tell you is when he started carrying, we had 16 kills to his 5. (Not 7. You're counting the period after he bought Wit's End. The point I'm trying to make is that items like the new Wit's End are imbalanced.) There is no way in any reality that a single item should be able to start trashing an entire team by yourself after that kind of start differential.

I mean, they fed our Yi 8 kills in the first 20 minutes, and our Yi was a slightly more experienced player than theirs, and he only died twice, meaning he had more time to farm. Do you see our Yi destroying them on that level? No. Because our Yi didn't build the obscene self-sustain items that theirs did.

WhyEvenBotherFRJul 22, 20192 votes

Your point clearly states 4 kills before 20 minutes. Your match history clearly shows 7 kills before 20 minutes. If you can't comprehend even this simple statistic then you won't comprehend the other information provided above and as such you are simply another person whining about something you don't understand....yet.

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Your point clearly states 4 kills before 20 minutes. Your match history clearly shows 7 kills before 20 minutes. If you can't comprehend even this simple statistic then you won't comprehend the other information provided above and as such you are simply another person whining about something you don't understand....yet.

I wasn't sure until now, but I see clearly what you're doing and I refuse to engage with it any further. There's no "wrong" or "right" to this discussion. You are attempting to wield sophistry against me, and as this doesn't actually constitute an argument, there's nothing for me to argue with you.

WhyEvenBotherFRJul 22, 20191 votes

lol you are trying to take a high ground saying right and wrong doesn't matter. But you are wrong in this case and your attempt just shows you talking out of your butt. Stay in bronze I guess or Iron or however low you are XP

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

lol you are trying to take a high ground saying right and wrong doesn't matter. But you are wrong in this case and your attempt just shows you talking out of your butt. Stay in bronze I guess or Iron or however low you are XP

I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm saying it doesn't exist. The argument you've created is an argument between 19 and 20, meant to distract from the fact that every word of this post is true. It's a classic attempt to bog me down in definitions and wordplay so we don't have to talk about what actually happened. In such an argument, there isn't a "right" or "wrong". There is only your distraction, and whether or not I engage with it. I've chosen not to.

(Pro tip from a League veteran: You can hover over user names on the boards to see level. Level's all that really matters when it comes to game knowledge. For the record, I'm officially unranked. I don't have the time or energy to invest in ranked when it's not my actual job. If the LCS were worth it, I'd play, but the LCS salary system is garbage.)

WhyEvenBotherFRJul 22, 20191 votes

Actually I made multiple points and your rebuttles were terrible. You haven't constructed a statement that held enough validity to counter my arguments and just continued your whole "Yi is strong. Nerf Yi. cry cry cry"

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Actually I made multiple points and your rebuttles were terrible. You haven't constructed a statement that held enough validity to counter my arguments and just continued your whole "Yi is strong. Nerf Yi. cry cry cry"

You never rebutted my rebuttals. I made them and you diverted immediately, and you've been stuck on numbers ever since. You're done. You threw in the towel and you're done here, go play League now.

rujitraJul 22, 20192 votes

Given that all your points come from the basis that you didn't give him an early lead, by proving you wrong on that, they've proved all your points wrong.

Seriously, if you don't want someone to be strong, don't feed them.

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Given that all your points come from the basis that you didn't give him an early lead, by proving you wrong on that, they've proved all your points wrong.

Seriously, if you don't want someone to be strong, don't feed them.

Great theory, only no one proved anything. My points were refuted. I counted every point of refute, and have since been uncontested. If there were flaws in my rebuttals, surely someone dedicated enough to follow this thread long enough after the conversation to upvote your comment would have already exposed them.

Five kills and four deaths is not "fed" when the other team has attained 16 kills of their own and only died six times. If I throw myself at my opponent in duels that end in our mutual death eight times, are either of us actually fed? We both missed out on enough farm that we just about broke even with everyone else in the game.

Remember, I'm not talking about a 1v1 against Yi. I'm talking about Yi against our entire team. For one thing, I don't care how fed you are, if you can solo an entire team without being at major risk of dying, that's an imbalanced game.

He had five kills. We had sixteen. Period. Our Yi had eight kills in the same timespan. How, pray tell, was their Yi able to overcome not only our own, but two or three other of us at a time on several occasions? Wasn't our Yi fed?

rujitraJul 22, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=shXXwdsR,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T07:35:42.802+0000)

Great theory, only no one proved anything. My points were refuted. I counted every point of refute, and have since been uncontested. If there were flaws in my rebuttals, surely someone dedicated enough to follow this thread long enough after the conversation to upvote your comment would have already exposed them.

Five kills and four deaths is not "fed" when the other team has attained 16 kills of their own and only died six times. If I throw myself at my opponent in duels that end in our mutual death eight times, are either of us actually fed? We both missed out on enough farm that we just about broke even with everyone else in the game.

Remember, I'm not talking about a 1v1 against Yi. I'm talking about Yi against our entire team. For one thing, I don't care how fed you are, if you can solo an entire team without being at major risk of dying, that's an imbalanced game.

He had five kills. We had sixteen. Period. Our Yi had eight kills in the same timespan. How, pray tell, was their Yi able to overcome not only our own, but two or three other of us at a time on several occasions? Wasn't our Yi fed?

Dude. The history is public. Your numbers are wrong. And of course a yi that builds on hit damage is going to do more damage, y'all's itemization against him sucked. Nobody had an item that slowed attack speed.

You're blaming Riot for your inability to control a Yi that you gave a lead to. 7 kills is well over 1k gold approaching 2k. That's almost another full item. Y'all fucked up and didn't build what you should've early.

AlienPrimateJul 22, 20191 votes

If you ever watched Cowsep you would know that Master Yi doesn't care how many times he dies early as long as he gets kills. He dives at level 2 for first blood all the time and says "worth, I snowball harder" every time. He happily trades 1 for 1 not caring about his KDA.

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

If you ever watched Cowsep you would know that Master Yi doesn't care how many times he dies early as long as he gets kills. He dives at level 2 for first blood all the time and says "worth, I snowball harder" every time. He happily trades 1 for 1 not caring about his KDA.

Precisely. Playing this way should be punished by the game's balance. For Master Yi, it's instead rewarded. If I play like this as Qiyana, Illaoi, LeBlanc, or just about anyone I play as, it only spells trouble for the mid game.

rujitraJul 22, 20191 votes

When Yi can be countered easily by a couple items or simply not dying to him...

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

When Yi can be countered easily by a couple items or simply not dying to him...

"Simply not dying to him." As though we go in intending to offer our lives to our glorious daimyō, Master Yi. What do you think I spend every Yi game doing? My sole purpose for existing in a Yi game is "don't die to Yi", do you really think Yi gives half a damn that I don't want to die to him? He hunts you down and ends you. Under turret, surrounded by allies, he will find you and he will kill you. You can't escape his R without hard CC, and having to bring hard CC to every single game in case one specific champion is present is proof of imbalance.

As for items, what items so easily counter him? His healing is what was keeping him in fights. I built Thornmail. He didn't care, because Thornmail was gutted when it got Grievous Wounds. Randuin does nothing against him. Sure, he's getting 0.26 less attacks per second and his criticals are doing less damage, but the slow does nothing and he burns through it even with weaker criticals.

Surely the utter definition of breaking the game is when a champion suddenly just ignores the items that have long countered him.

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Edit: Also your count is way off. You didn't allow 4 kills....you allowed 7 kills in the first 20 minutes with another 4 kills offered within 3 minutes after 20 minutes. He was fed. plain and simple.

My count is slightly off. 5. I don't count the 20 minute mark, because that's where Yi bought Wit's End and everything changed. For 19 of the first 20 minutes, we allowed him only 5 kills and 4 deaths to our 16 team kills.

WhyEvenBotherFRJul 22, 20191 votes

Also the 20 minute mark starts from 20 and goes to halfway between 20 and 22 on the recap. So yea. it was 7 kills.

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Also the 20 minute mark starts from 20 and goes to halfway between 20 and 22 on the recap. So yea. it was 7 kills.

Once again, at 20 minutes, he bought Wit's End. I'm not trying to mince numbers between 19 and 20, I'm trying to illustrate that when he bought Wit's End, he suddenly became obscenely powerful as compared to his performance up to the moment when he bought it.

boricCentaur1Jul 22, 20191 votes

FUN FACT WITS END IS BASICALLY BORK BUT WORST unless you need the mr.

Man you should of played idk ornn who get get up 200 fucking armor and a shit load of hp FROM TWO ITEMS.

Like don't fucking complain about damage if you're comparing about someone WHO IS FED while building like shit.

Tryn would of done the same, basically any carry would be done that the same if not better then yi.

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

FUN FACT WITS END IS BASICALLY BORK BUT WORST unless you need the mr.

Man you should of played idk ornn who get get up 200 fucking armor and a shit load of hp FROM TWO ITEMS.

Like don't fucking complain about damage if you're comparing about someone WHO IS FED while building like shit.

Tryn would of done the same, basically any carry would be done that the same if not better then yi.

This Ornn build got me to M6 faster than I've ever gotten there on any champion. Even LeBlanc. It also brings me to a nearly 60% lifetime win rate with Ornn. The only time I started losing with this build? This season. In fact, I tried shifting to hard armor one game and I still got melted.

No, Yi was not fed, and you people parroting this over and over doesn't change that fact. Our Yi had more kills than he did; almost double. Our Yi did nothing to him, even when it was 3v1. Our level was never more than one behind his. Our Yi matched him just about level for level. Again, he did nothing to him, even when it was 3v1.

"WITS END IS BASICALLY BORK BUT WORSE", is it? How so, exactly? Is it the double attack speed it offers over BORK? The movement speed boost that makes Yi even more impossible to escape when he ults? Oh wait, BORK... BORK doesn't provide any bonus movement speed.

Is it the insane amount of self-heal it provides? 100% of pre-mitigation damage. That means a Yi with 2.0 AS is healing 400 per second, assuming he doesn't crit. If he crits, that's 800 healing per second, guaranteed, while near death. Hang on, BORK is just 12% lifesteal. That's a whole 88% less healing than Wit's End, and that's before factoring damage reduction from my armor.

Oh no, I see, maybe it's the +50 magic resist, allowing him to sustain even harder against mages and many assassins, who exist to burst champions like him down. Hang on, though, BORK doesn't have that either! Nevermind that this is all stacked on top of BORK on many Yi's.

Please don't try to debate me if you're not even going to bother looking up what the items provide.

boricCentaur1Jul 22, 20192 votes

Ummmmmm what? The amount of wrong is unbelievable. 1: Your build is pure shit it doesn't matter if you THINK it good or it or if you win with it. Ornn is a tank that has a passive that gives him more resistances from items while also having a passive that upgrades some items to HAVE THE HIGHEST RESISTANCES IN THE GAME.

What does this mean it means he makes MORE USE OUT OF RESISTANCES THEN HP. Like the upgraded sunfire is probably the best item in the game.

2:Why are you lying??? I CAN FIND YOUR GAME. There yi was 28/6/7 your yi was 16/12/6 so wtf do you mean your yi had more kill. ALSO 28 AND 6 IS PRETTY FUCKING FED.

3: bork give ad more damage, a slow and it gives lifesteal its better in almost every way. ALSO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW ITEMS WORK SINCE DID NOT READ! The most wits end will heal per auto is 80 lifesteal where lifesteal CAN EASILY TO PASS 100 PER AUTO WITHOUT HAVING TO BE UNDER A AMOUNT OF HP.

Like fun fact also around when you get your first items as jg(not counting boots or jg item) wits end will heal about 50 depending on the champion hit since every champion has mr it will heal about 54 depending on armor. Meaning there basically healing the same but one is all the time and scales better.

Where are you getting this 400 per second bs like I built the same as the yi in your game and it takes about 1.75 to 2 to get 4 autos off soooooo yeah no AND I JUST SHOWED HOW YOU HEAL MORE WITH BORK TO AT THAT TIME LOL.

Like how did you get your numbers I went into a practice game to find my numbers and did some math you know average mr subtracted that from wits ends damage to get that. Attacked the target dummy to find how if one of them healed more since it has the same amount of mr and armor.

Like don't understand how ornn works, you flat out lying about your game, You also don't understand how items work.

Zero ShingetsuJul 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Ummmmmm what? The amount of wrong is unbelievable. 1: Your build is pure shit it doesn't matter if you THINK it good or it or if you win with it. Ornn is a tank that has a passive that gives him more resistances from items while also having a passive that upgrades some items to HAVE THE HIGHEST RESISTANCES IN THE GAME.

What does this mean it means he makes MORE USE OUT OF RESISTANCES THEN HP. Like the upgraded sunfire is probably the best item in the game.

I'm fully aware of this. I used to build like that. After losing 82% of my Ornn games with that sort of build, I started trying a sustain-and-push build that provides a ton of health regen, allowing me to literally never have to leave lane. I've since won 65% of my Ornn games. Thanks for continually making my point, I suppose.

2:Why are you lying??? I CAN FIND YOUR GAME. There yi was 28/6/7 your yi was 16/12/6 so wtf do you mean your yi had more kill. ALSO 28 AND 6 IS PRETTY FUCKING FED.

Why am I lying about what, our Yi having way more kills at the 20 minute mark? Look at the images I posted and compare them to the OP.GG timeline from that game. Tell me I'm lying. Once again you're making my point. Their Yi ended 28/6 and ours ended 16/12. But until their Yi bought Wit's End, he was 5/4 and ours was 7/3. You're proving yourself to have tunnel vision by looking only at surface numbers and making a haughty argument out of it, while I took the time to break down every death and match the timeline to the itemization timeline.

3: bork give ad more damage, a slow and it gives lifesteal its better in almost every way. ALSO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW ITEMS WORK SINCE DID NOT READ! The most wits end will heal per auto is 80 lifesteal where lifesteal CAN EASILY TO PASS 100 PER AUTO WITHOUT HAVING TO BE UNDER A AMOUNT OF HP.

I'll grant you that, I misread Wit's End. So thanks for making my point a third time in a single post: there is no way on any earth that Wit's End should have resulted in this degree of swing. Something is fundamentally wrong with the damage output of this game if Wit's End can cause this kind of swing.

Where are you getting this 400 per second bs like I built the same as the yi in your game and it takes about 1.75 to 2 to get 4 autos off soooooo yeah no AND I JUST SHOWED HOW YOU HEAL MORE WITH BORK TO AT THAT TIME LOL.

Like how did you get your numbers I went into a practice game to find my numbers and did some math you know average mr subtracted that from wits ends damage to get that. Attacked the target dummy to find how if one of them healed more since it has the same amount of mr and armor.

You realize laughing in all caps at an honest misread makes you look incredibly juvenile, right? I'm sure you're a perfectly well-meaning adult, I'm just pointing it out in case you don't want those less generous to assume the worst of you. For the record, what I did is take Yi's attack damage at level 18, plus the attack damage granted by all the items he'd built, and multiply it by one. Having misread the effect, this was the incorrect way to go about it, and I apologize for offending you.

Like don't understand how ornn works, you flat out lying about your game, You also don't understand how items work.

I understand how Ornn works, which is how I'm fully aware that Riot broke their game.

I didn't say a single untrue thing about the events of my game, and to accuse me otherwise when I have literally laid the proof out right in front of everyone (again, you're free to cross reference it with OP.GG, it's where I got all the data) is in extremely poor taste, to say the least.

I do understand how items work; I misread a single effect - I glossed over "this effect's" in the Wit's End description - and I again apologize for offending you. m(｡_｡；))m

However, at 2 attacks per second, a Yi could theoretically use Wit's End to heal for an extra 160 per second, which for champions like Yi is often enough to swing a fight. All he needs is that extra split second to fire off Alpha Strike and throw the enemy team into chaos. This Yi was just shy, but he wasn't done building when the game ended, either. I guarantee he'd have been at 2.0 by the end of a longer game.