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Talisman of Ascension needs a buff

Covert Ops Gnar··157 votes·6,212 views

This item is obsolete to all other support items, especially Frost Queen.

You break even from buying the first part item at 10 minutes while Frost Queens has way better stats, an arguably better active, and gives way more gold. I usually make 2500-3000 gold per game from Frost Queens while making, at most, 1000 gold with Talisman.

Talisman does not give passive gold (ex 2 gold per 10 seconds), and gives 6 gold and 10hp per nearby minion that dies, and only gives regen stats. Frost queen gives 2 gold per 10 seconds, gives 15 gold and 15 extra damage upon attacking an enemy champion, gives AP and mana regen stat.

Frost Queen makes 33% more gold per wave and has the ability to make gold in between waves with trades/pokes (while doing more damage with those pokes) and gets passive gold, while Talisman has to wait for a minion wave and can only get gold from a minion wave.

Possible change: Give FotM the Talisman active, nerf FotM stats, give a sizable buff to Talisman stats, and give it an active shield that scales off of level. This better fits the promotion of passive-play for Talisman and gives tanks a way to let their team follow up better.

133 Comments

TNHA Baritone44 votes

Lmao WOW!

I did a post JUST LIKE THIS and got downvoted to hell. Lol NO ONE BUILDS Talisman, not even Janna

Savage Devi51 votes

You know something's wrong when even Janna's not building the coin

Supreme Senpai693 votes

I do as Soraka sometimes only for the sustain, but it feels so bad to have in your inventory

Covert Ops Gnar8 votes

The champs that should use the active shouldn't have the stats and the champs that should have the stats shouldn't have the active.

What if they made Face of the Montain have the Talisman stats and vise versa? Make the Tank support item give movement speed and make the Passive support item give a shield that scales off of level.

Supreme Senpai694 votes

I feel like that'd be a neat idea. You can't tank if you're not there yet, and you can't 'heal and protect' if you don't have a shield.

CeexSett1 votes

I use it as Soraka as a lvl 6 main, but rather the Eye of the Whatever

Supreme Senpai691 votes

I'm one token away from level 6. It's just so hard to win games as Soraka sometimes. Because sometimes you're healing garbage, and the difference between dead garbage and alive garbage isn't much ;-;. Last game went 1/8/24 and lost and got a B.

CeexSett1 votes

I'm 500 essence away, since at this elo no one understands how easy it is to counter Soraka and get shocked my team never dies ^^

Troll for Trump2 votes

The thing is the champs that use talisman are all too strong with it. Same thing with Righteous, although Riot had already nerfed the item so it's used.....less.

Nautilus Blitzcrank Alistar Thresh .

Blitz is already strong now against mages; That could push him a bit over the top.

SpecterVonBaren19 votes

Give it back the movespeed and I'll actually consider getting it.

DJ S0NA3 votes

Don't even know why riot nerfed it on 5.22. It's not like it was a dominating item back then. The self movement speed should return and the active's cooldown should be reduced (50 seconds instead of 60 (not 40 like it was before)).

TNHA Baritone6 votes

It was dominating by default (BACK WHEN FQC has the AOE slow thing). It wasnt oppressive but it was just the best thing for supports.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

The reason Frost Queens is better, is because you have to actively work for it. Coin is for passive play, where you don't even need to work for the gold, other than staying in lane. Frost Queen is for rewarding aggressive play, while Coin is for rewarding passive play. Buff Coin, and Passive play becomes just as rewarding as being aggressive.

ZephyrDrake7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=se3Er2TE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-05-30T22:36:09.239+0000)

The reason Frost Queens is better, is because you have to actively work for it. Coin is for passive play, where you don't even need to work for the gold, other than staying in lane. Frost Queen is for rewarding aggressive play, while Coin is for rewarding passive play. Buff Coin, and Passive play becomes just as rewarding as being aggressive.

so it's ok for coin to be a worthless item right? you can buff the stats on the item, give it a passive gold gen, make it heal slightly more. ANYTHING! would be better than what it is right now. When champions that the item is supposed to be good are just flat out ignoring it then you should know something is wrong with the item.

zlumpy1 votes

Whats wrong with passive play. Its a legit play style. Especially when a hero with maybe 1 major item can show up outa no where and kill you in 2 to 3 hits and walk away with no danger to what they did. TBH I think newer heros and some older ones are so fast paced now they make other non meta heros obselete.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Passive Play is fine, but it should not be as rewarding as aggressive play.

zlumpy1 votes

It shouldn't be and generally isn't. But some heros are so aggresive that they completely shut down other players despite being as safe as they can. I've watched heros like leblanc and fizz delete people under a tower before the tower even registers they were there, and hop back out. Thats the kind of thing I don't think should exist.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

We're talking about Support items, not deciding what is and what isn't healthy in a game. :T

zlumpy1 votes

Support items are part of what I'm getting at. Some of them are low cost with no option for another upgrade for more gold. This would only be seen in longer games, but there are plenty of games where some supports fall off because they have poor itemization. I actually like the frost queen because it gives more at a price.

As far as early play some of the support items have too big of a draw back because they are focused on passive play but don't add enough to contend with the current state of the game. Obviously you cant have the coin be as good as bringing someone up yo full with each wave clear but it could stand to have a little diversity in its stats. Adding a few offensive or defensive stats wouldnt be too much to ask for. Atm it seems like supports rely more on their skill kit and player knowledge than they do on well you are doing with the character. Maybe this is more of a reflection oh supports in general and maybe it isnt. I for one would love to play a big beefy tank that has enough mobility AND tankiness to make a difference, but that only leaves me with a few options. Some of which I don't like playing.

Voluug133 votes

Who could have thought that nerfing it several times and making a superior item with superior stats with an extremely similar active effect, but actually stronger could make Talisman a bad buy! That gives you more gold passively, no less!

Truly an unpredictable event!

/s

On a more viable solution, either:

  • Give it better stats and/or better passives.

  • Give it another active effect that isnt just ''FQC but worse''. Something that doesnt overlap with FQC's active.

Justice for item 3301 item 3096 item 3069

zlumpy1 votes

What if it had 2 more options for build path. 1 with stats and 1 with a more aggressive or more spammable active. Some of these current low cost items are just feeling too weak as a game progresses.

BloodyTompon2 votes

It needs to give the last gold because it's not possible to screw up. Frost Queen's Claim gives more under optimal conditions, but those conditions aren't always met, there are sub-optimal cases that are the norm (hence the passive gold). Talisman does not have these cases. Secondly you have to consider the stats it gives. 10Hp per minion is much more than 3x15 damage in a trade. A single minion wave more than makes up for that.

The real questions are who/what should talisman be serving, is it serving those well and is the play pattern a desirable one? It's play pattern is essentially a passive one so it appears to be aimed at passive/reactive supports and losing lanes where you are trying to avoid trades. In both those situations it's desirable that the gold gen is less than the other items. Is the play pattern desirable? Half. It's good to have an opt in for a lane you will lose to survive it, less good to enable passive supports. Does it serve the play pattern and the who/what well? I'd argue not really. The health it gives is too high and the gold too low.

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

10 hp per minion (sustained health) vs 45 burst damage and 50% more gold

Late game the Talisman passives and stats do nothing while FQC still gives gold, still gives damage, and still gives relevant stats.

LankPants3 votes

10 HP/minion is a hell of a lot. Think of it this way, in a single wave you regenerate 60 HP (assuming no cannon), in that same wave Frostfang gives 45 damage, if the person with Frostfang is hitting you, you come out slightly ahead.

Frostfang can give more gold, that's the important thing, it can, it doesn't always. Frostfang has a high end cap of 51 gold/wave, which is great if you can proc it 3 times but you often can't. If you're zoned off of harass Frostfang gives 6 gold/wave. Medallion will always give 36 gold/wave, 42 if it's a cannon. Of course this number has to be lower than Frostfang because there's an inherent risk of not getting your gold if you buy a Frostfang.

Velasan2 votes

{quoted}

10 HP/minion is a hell of a lot. Think of it this way, in a single wave you regenerate 60 HP (assuming no cannon), in that same wave Frostfang gives 45 damage, if the person with Frostfang is hitting you, you come out slightly ahead.

Frostfang can give more gold, that's the important thing, it can, it doesn't always. Frostfang has a high end cap of 51 gold/wave, which is great if you can proc it 3 times but you often can't. If you're zoned off of harass Frostfang gives 6 gold/wave. Medallion will always give 36 gold/wave, 42 if it's a cannon. Of course this number has to be lower than Frostfang because there's an inherent risk of not getting your gold if you buy a Frostfang.

Generally speaking, despite FQC having passive gold generation, I think the gold they generate is about the same. It's much easier to pull in gold from the ancient coin line simply by standing in minions and the poke to get gold passive on FQC is not something you will be proccing every second it's up unless you are also just sitting in lane.

The regen coin gives is huge even if most people don't realize it. Completely agree with you there. I think the biggest issue is that coin is meant to be the farm item and supports that promote that playstyle still don't want it.

If anything I think people have it backwards.. the first two parts of the item are by far the strongest. They reward you for doing nothing except being in lane. They give you huge regen vs poke and a lot of passive gold. The problem is that FQC has an overall better active (by far) and better end stats. On top of that a lot of the same poke style supports who can proc spellthiefs edge in the early game are the same ones who might opt for coin, but now wouldn't have a reason to buy it.

That was a long rant, but basically I'm just saying the stats on the finished Talisman of Ascension item 3069 is not nearly as good as a finished item 3092 and the build path for FQC is a lot smoother (Talisman, without merging it to the sight stone, requires another set of mana regen charms that no one needs anymore by the time you are buying it).

Probably the best thing they could do for Talisman is let it build out of Aether Wisp item 3113 and it give back the movement speed and put back on some of the passive gold generation making it a weaker early item, but a strong transitioning item where it will ultimately give more gold back around in the mid game to buy more items with.

rtbf2256182412 votes

Frost Queen's active is complete shit compared to Talisman's and can be outrun. It depends on who you're buying it on but i agree that Talisman should have it's passive gold returned.

Jorencice1 votes

Who the hell are you on that can outrun ghost?

Even on janna with a passive MS of 520 I can't outrun those ghosts.

rtbf2256182411 votes

You just said that to the person maining Janna for over 2k games.

It depends on how far you are from the ghosts and you can pretty easily outrun or at least delay their approach with Talisman or with movement speed abilities.

SnowFall2 votes

item 2302 Also buff this

Rockman2 votes

So how would you suggest buffing it? It's currently bad because it's the most passive out of all 3 starts.

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

Giving passive gold, 3g per 10s.

One of the main problems I see is that you're overpaying for stats, and worthless stats at that.

Either price needs to be reduced by a few hundred, which won't happen, or giving passive gold generation so that you have the ability to be gaining gold outside of lane and while in lane.

Rockman1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Covert Ops Gnar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=se3Er2TE,comment-id=001d0000,timestamp=2016-05-31T21:19:17.550+0000)

Giving passive gold, 3g per 10s.

One of the main problems I see is that you're overpaying for stats, and worthless stats at that.

Either price needs to be reduced by a few hundred, which won't happen, or giving passive gold generation so that you have the ability to be gaining gold outside of lane and while in lane.

You are making the item even more passive. This is bad. You either have to accept Coin as a mediocre start or give it a healthier play pattern.

I'd rather have a shitty start into a great T3 item compared to the rest.

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

I put a recommendation into an edit in the original post

Faceroll Tactics1 votes

Riot has got to be very cautious when buffing gold income items.

All it takes is one messup and we've got drones of Sona "supports" abusing gold income to build like an AP mid. Like we don't have enough of those already....

It Hertz When IP7 votes

Because God forbid the support NOT have a gimped build. No way we can just stand by and let supports think they're real people!

......... "kappa", for the slower readers.

Elewd2 votes

Annie Brand Leblanc Morgana Velkoz Veigar Zyra "but we ARE real supports" no but forreal, a support should be allowed to actually build items, not all supports should be forced into building all the "supporty" items that basically turns them into aura bots.

Faceroll Tactics1 votes

I'm a little jaded from the innumerable times a level 7 Sona started item 3303 then went full ap, no item 2049 , never upgraded her support item, and told us we were so hard to carry.

LankPants1 votes

I can honestly say I've never seen this. In my experience people playing actual support champions tend to buy Sightstone almost all the time. It's normally the people who pick stupid shit like support Nidalee and Lee Sin (you work that one out) who don't.

Most Sona's I see build item 2301 , it just seems like the logical best item on Sona support.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

lol are you kidding? I have seen "supports" that don't buy sightstone and I'm like wtf. When I ask why they don't have sightstone, I hear the same reason every time. "You all have wards too, use em." At that point I just wonder if these people actually know what the role actually means. Including sona players

Icy Spectre2 votes

{quoted}

lol are you kidding? I have seen "supports" that don't buy sightstone and I'm like wtf. When I ask why they don't have sightstone, I hear the same reason every time. "You all have wards too, use em." At that point I just wonder if these people actually know what the role actually means. Including sona players

Then I look at shop, find a pink ward that now costs ONLY 75G and I still see only one pink (placed by me?) on map when I could see 5.

STFU.

BigfootNamedYeti2 votes

Straight up legitimate comment why don't you use your wards or you know buy a pink once in all seriousness a support can only place 3 and in those 3 each only has a minute rotate wards bruh support isn't your bitch they're the only ones looking out for you

Requiemsfire2 votes

What do you mean? There is no reason for LeeSin not to buy item 2049.

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

On my main I like to go Yasuo Jungle, Katarina support, and Akali support. 90% in rate doing that in gold 1, though I was banned for "holding teammates ransom in champion select".

AttackOfTheBeard2 votes

And you're one of the reasons why ADC mains hate their role. Because Katarina and Akali bring so much peel, healing and shielding for their adc they are supporting....

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

I used to main support for 3 seasons as real support champions. I still play my role in a fashion that lets the ADC get kills, and if all else fails, I will take the kills to save his life. Tbh I've never really had a problem peeling dead enemies. Sometimes I play Braum and I have a 5.5KDA but only a 65% win rate

AttackOfTheBeard1 votes

If you're going to play support pick a real support. Plain and simple. Anything else is trolling and finding any success through playing these Faux supports in Katarina and Akali is a testament to the lack of competence by the enemy team. If I were an adc with a katarina/akali support (especially in a ranked game) I would already be pissed off in champ select. Knowing from the start I have zero assistance in staying alive from my supposed to be "support" other than pure damage is fucking bullshit and you have no right to choose support and to fuck over adc mains like that. I don't even play adc hardly ever but that shit you're doing is fucked up. If you want to play Akali or Katarina take them mid or even top where they belong

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

I used to play Braum every game. I got my adc 12-0 every game, but I never won. The rest of the team was always bad and was too heavy for one person to carry. I turned to new strategies in an attempt to win games. I started with Katarina and I found success in that. I turned to Akali, I found success in that. I tried Yasuo support, found success in that. It makes the game carry-able. My ADC cannot do enough damage to the entire enemy team and I cannot peel the entire enemy team. The enemy team gets confused and isn't sure what to do. Since I still am playing Katarina, everybody on the enemy team has to focus me first or I will kill all of them, even if I am 0-5-0. This makes the enemy team choose between me or my adc.

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

I used to main support, as I said before. I know more about supporting than you do and I still play as a support, just as a different champ. There's nothing wrong with it if it works.

StrangerL1 votes

In their build path, Talisman is built from 3 item 1004 , Frost queen is built from 1. Talisman has only 25% more mana regen compared with Frost queen. (Frost queen mana regen was lowered 25% until the recent changes in item 3028 in Mid-Year Mage update.)

Also, 100% health regen in Talisman and passive health regen vs 50 AP in item 3092?

Frost queen has overall a better stats.

Also, I suggest they should just make a AP/utility (No more CDR, we have more then enough CDR in items) build path for sightstone and get rid of item 2302 and item 2301. (We have been asking for an extra sightstone path since sightstone and ruby sightstone came out in season 3; Please, listen to your players). You created 3 eye of XX items that require supports to do a decision making in gold items build path, which most of us don't want to make with our itemization already kinda sucks. We are not fortune tellers; we don't know if we will have a super late game that we might finish all item build and need an extra item slot.

Elewd2 votes

item 2301 item 2302 they shouldnt change these items, they are actually more commonly bought than people think. specially on mage supports who still want to get a sightstone and not take 2 slots for the items.

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